View Poll Results: Will Europe be compelled to become more European?

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  1. #1
    deRougemont's Avatar Yeoman
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    Default Europeanizing the Europeans

    In the post-colonial era, Europe has prided itself -- at least intellectually if not really -- on its multicultural outlook towards the world. The United States has always been the foil for this new outlook, derided as the "other"; Powerful, unilateral, brash and the cause for more problems than the solution. Now, with the election of a new multicultural president, US policy changes have and will continue to be sweeping. The new US will move to the left of Europe. The new president, whether directly or through policy, will call Europe out on its claims to multilateralism and multiculturalism; in essence, for them to practice what they have preached (and chastised America for not doing for decades). In so doing the intellectual claims could be shown to be foolish and risky to their countries as they are forced to deal with world issues in the abcense of US power (not to mention a US to blame). The following article (see spoiler) by Stanford University history professor Victor Davis Hanson articulates this further:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Europeanizing Europe
    Europeans wanted Barack Obama. They may have got more than they bargained for.

    By Victor Davis Hanson

    Last summer, with several other Americans, I went to a garden reception attended by some French barristers, generals, and assorted professionals in Versailles. Most of them, conservatives and liberals alike, were quite ecstatic about the prospect of Barack Obama as the next American president — except one. He glanced around and then quietly whispered to me, “There is only room for one Obama — and, you remember, we already are the Obama.”

    I think we are beginning to understand something of what he meant.

    Europe went gaga over the campaign of Barack Obama — especially his serial references to multilateralism, vows to leave Iraq, eco-utopianism, and the soothing way in which he trumped Europe’s own disgust with the Bush administration.

    Promises of nationalized health care, higher taxes, Kyoto redux, and more government cheered Europeans, leading them to believe that Obama would steer America on a path closer to their own. (That the French, German, and Italian governments may be slightly to the right of Obama was never mentioned — nor was the fact that in their lethargy Europeans occasionally like to come over here for a swig of old-fashioned rip-roaring America.)

    Yet after the first seven weeks of the Obama administration some in Europe may be reminded of the old adage, “Be careful what you wish for.”

    Take unilateralism. After the invasion of Iraq, Europe mostly lambasted Bush as a go-it-alone cowboy who ridiculed “Old Europe.” They forgot about American attempts to lead a joint effort to stop nuclear proliferation in North Korea and Iran, fight the Taliban in Afghanistan, beat back al-Qaeda, and ensure European autonomy in the face of an ascendant Russia. Tell a European that the U.S. military killed some pretty awful Islamic terrorists in Afghanistan, Waziristan, and Iraq — terrorists who liked Europeans no better than us — and he was likely to play-act that we had created such creepy killers.

    But now President Obama seems to be taking Europe at its multiculturalist, multilateralist word. He asks for more European troops in Afghanistan, and yet before they even arrive he wants to open dialogue with the “moderate” elements of the Taliban — sort of like searching out reasonable Nazis around 1942, or looking for circumspect Japanese after Iwo Jima. (Apparently, he thinks the Taliban haven’t heard of his $1.7-trillion deficit and his trashing of the cowboy Bush, or read his sympathetic press rebranding the once “good” Afghan war as the “quagmire.”)

    Meanwhile Obama is playing Jacques Chirac in the Middle East, seeking talks with both Bashar al-Assad and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad without preconditions. His Al Arabiya interview put him squarely to the left of the old European colonialists. (It was not for nothing that he sent back the bust of Winston Churchill and offered the visiting British pith helmets some fire-sale DVDs as presidential presents.)

    Recently, in a letter to Russian leaders, Obama tried his hand at Kissingerian quid pro quo, apparently offering to give up Eastern European missile defense (had the Poles and Czechs heard about that?) if Russia would help stop the nuclear program it had helped jumpstart in Iran. That would be like asking Dr. A. Q. Khan, strangely released last month from house arrest, if he might talk sense to North Korea’s rogue nuclear scientists. In any case, those missiles were expensive in times of dearth, and how can you press the reset button with Putin if those pesky Eastern Europeans insist on chest-thumping to their former overlords?

    Unlike the strutting but committed free-trader Bush, Obama is far more likely to arrange some quiet protection for American industries from subsidized foreign competition. So he may well back off from open markets and free-trade leagues, just as he promised in the campaign — and just as jittery EU functionaries worry in their pro forma praises of America’s commitment to globalization. And if European technocrats come over here to about new trade realities, they will surely get a dose of mellifluous “Hope and Change” and elegant denials that will shame them into never suggesting that we had become Buchanan-like protectionists.

    Europeans once loved to ridicule Bush as a laissez-faire capitalist as they racked up trade surpluses with the United States. Now a far more sympathetic Obama may well make it harder for Europeans to send in goods without encountering some sort of tariff. And if Europeans and everyone else once looked to a wide-open, low-tax, risk-it-all United States to jumpstart the world economy and help spread globalization, well, from now on, we will be consulting with Europe for joint government initiatives on convincing the Indians and Chinese to shut down their coal plants — as we ask the lattermost to lend us more cash.

    It was easy to ridicule straw-in-the-mouth Bush for cracking down on Islamic terrorists. Now Obama may well send some of them back from Guantanamo to face European postmodern justice. It was also easy for Euros to slur the Patriot Act and “extraordinary rendition” as signs of the new American fascism, even as their own judiciaries, immigration services, and investigative units quietly did things that we haven’t dreamed of since the Civil War.

    But now the Europeans are confused — is Obama to the left of them in the war on terror (does the war on terror even exist any more?) or is he Bush without the twang? Can we Americans at last lecture our allies about the absence of habeas corpus in some European countries, or their illiberal practice of preventive detention?

    What is going on here?

    Europeans got what their hearts wanted, but forgot what their heads told them. For 50 years, they have caricatured America as it served as the dumping ground for the export economies of the world. It (often clumsily) defended Europe at no cost, and got snickers and triangulation as its thanks. America’s belching cars and smokestack industries were the object of disdain by the supposedly green Euros, who in fact never met any of the Kyoto guidelines that they preached to everyone else.

    Europe talked a great multicultural game, as the antithesis to America’s dirty role as the world’s cop that had to do nasty things like get Saddam out of Kuwait and then Iraq itself, rid the world of Milosevic, and chase the Taliban from Afghanistan.

    Europeans gave Nobel Prizes to Jimmy Carter and Al Gore with the idea of poking in the eye the conservative American establishment — not as proof that in their wildest dreams they would wish to see once again Carter’s 1977–80 governance or enact Al Gore’s ideas for shutting down the West’s industrial infrastructure within a decade. (French nuclear plants and Eastern European coal-based production have no place in the Goreist wind-and-solar global paradise.)

    Suddenly America has flipped, and Europe is bewildered and afraid that we may be the new, but more powerful and influential, Europe — and thus Europe will be left alone, with no foil. Its intellectuals talk of post-colonialism and post-imperialism, as they brag of their new multicultural fides. Quietly they worry about unassimilated minorities in their cities with names like Hussein. And while they accept that a Barack Obama would never make it to a major European ministry, they cannot accept that he knows that all too well himself — and should have little problem from time to time reminding the world of it as well.

    What will soon scare London and Paris and Berlin is that when the Russians “haggle,” or squeeze Ukraine, or play games with gas exports, Americans will be right behind them in referring all such crises to the United Nations for multipolar talks. We may slice our deficit by cutting a carrier group or three, content to suggest that the Charles de Gaulle dock off Darfur to do a little air recon, or visit Georgia to reassure the people of Western support.

    In the Middle East, we will worry about the sorry legacy of colonialism, as our multicultural president opens new initiatives with some pretty rough customers. (Europe, not the U.S., will be in range of the new Iranian missiles.) Europe can’t even get its old rise out of us by bashing Israel, not when we are giving Hamas-controlled Gaza $1 billion in aid, and when the administration wanted Samantha Power and Charles Freeman as our regional experts.

    Re-empowered unions, Democratic protectionism, high taxes, big government, astronomical deficits, idealistic 1930s isolationism — not the globalization and free-market trade once demanded by the now moribund masters of the universe on Wall Street — are America’s new creed. Who knows? Soon our elite may be thinking of emigrating to the Netherlands or Denmark to avoid America’s high taxes and its new redistributive government regulations. Who knows? Soon a European eccentric may have to come over here, Churchill-like, to warn us about the storm clouds on the global horizons.

    In short, we are going to Europeanize Europe in a manner far beyond what they ever dreamed of doing to us.

    Victor Davis Hanson is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal.

    Victor Davis Hanson is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and a recipient of the 2007 National Humanities Medal. © 2009 Tribune Media Services, Inc.

    The question is, will the new US force Europe in the coming years to become more European, ie, less quixotic, less focused on the (questionable) value of blind multiculturalism within their states and abroad, and more protective of their countries as the world policeman retires? Will they focus less on what the world demands them to be, and more on what they, as Europeans, want themselves to be?






  2. #2
    Zephyrus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Europeanizing the Europeans

    Why? A weaker europe=an easier ally to push around in its policies.
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  3. #3
    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Europeanizing the Europeans

    Ultimately with continued cultural clash, changing demographics, and a rapidly declining economy, something has got to give. In this case, its Multiculturalism, PC bull****. It's being rejected pretty rapidly [though not fast enough] all across the West. Good luck to you Europeans though, hopefully you destroy Multiculturalism before it causes even more harm!

  4. #4

    Default Re: Europeanizing the Europeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Scar Face View Post
    Ultimately with continued cultural clash, changing demographics, and a rapidly declining economy, something has got to give. In this case, its Multiculturalism, PC bull****. It's being rejected pretty rapidly [though not fast enough] all across the West. Good luck to you Europeans though, hopefully you destroy Multiculturalism before it causes even more harm!
    Yes, it's an utter disaster how the easterners are doing my work. It's horrific! Especially since there's NO WAY Norway would be in the great position we are in today without them.

    We need them, we may not need them right now but we will need them two or three years from now.
    Have you ever seen Dirty Harry Guns and money are best diplomacy
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  5. #5
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Europeanizing the Europeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Scar Face View Post
    Ultimately with continued cultural clash, changing demographics, and a rapidly declining economy, something has got to give. In this case, its Multiculturalism, PC bull****. It's being rejected pretty rapidly [though not fast enough] all across the West. Good luck to you Europeans though, hopefully you destroy Multiculturalism before it causes even more harm!

    In that case you expect a European nation to kick all others out? And no free travel?
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  6. #6

    Default Re: Europeanizing the Europeans

    america is uniquely suitable to it though since we have no culture beyond our variety.-- we have no ancient things to cling too we simply are immigrants fighting to make money.

  7. #7
    deRougemont's Avatar Yeoman
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    Default Re: Europeanizing the Europeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaigidel View Post
    america is uniquely suitable to it though since we have no culture beyond our variety.-- we have no ancient things to cling too we simply are immigrants fighting to make money.
    That is true to many of us, but not all of us. To put a twist on the subject, I was born in the United States and have lived here all but two years (one was spent in Germany, the other in Austria), but I identify with my European background more than I do with current American culture. This has become acute since the election of Obama.

    As to making money; the economy will get worse, perhaps even collapse. You are right, money is the only thing that holds our society together. This is no real, sustainable common culture beyond that. As history shows, deeper cultural bonds come to the fore as economics worsen. Ethnic identities will become increasingly important in the US as conditions get worse and the economic bonds dissolve. It may turn out that European-Americans will become more European as well. Time will tell.






  8. #8
    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Europeanizing the Europeans

    Quote Originally Posted by deRougemont View Post
    That is true to many of us, but not all of us. To put a twist on the subject, I was born in the United States and have lived here all but two years (one was spent in Germany, the other in Austria), but I identify with my European background more than I do with current American culture. This has become acute since the election of Obama.

    As to making money; the economy will get worse, perhaps even collapse. You are right, money is the only thing that holds our society together. This is no real, sustainable common culture beyond that. As history shows, deeper cultural bonds come to the fore as economics worsen. Ethnic identities will become increasingly important in the US as conditions get worse and the economic bonds dissolve. It may turn out that European-Americans will become more European as well. Time will tell.
    I think you are underestimating the strength of North American culture. I do not disagree with your assessment of what will happen after the economic collapse, simply your assessment of current north American society. There most definitely is an American culture. It is a general one- perhaps one pushed, artificially constructed by the media, but it exists. From the west coast to the east coast, from texas to Canada, there will be differences in some matters of life. You will still understand each others point of views, values, and outlook.

    Or maybe I think this way because I'm ethnically European, and so I see commonality through the media and others, because of my similarities with many Americans- but not close to a majority. I don't know. Maybe there really is a way to "act white" and thats what I perceive to be the culture of NA and I'm completely erroneous in that.

  9. #9
    Zephyrus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Europeanizing the Europeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Scar Face View Post
    I think you are underestimating the strength of North American culture. I do not disagree with your assessment of what will happen after the economic collapse, simply your assessment of current north American society. There most definitely is an American culture. It is a general one- perhaps one pushed, artificially constructed by the media, but it exists. From the west coast to the east coast, from texas to Canada, there will be differences in some matters of life. You will still understand each others point of views, values, and outlook.

    Or maybe I think this way because I'm ethnically European, and so I see commonality through the media and others, because of my similarities with many Americans- but not close to a majority. I don't know. Maybe there really is a way to "act white" and thats what I perceive to be the culture of NA and I'm completely erroneous in that.
    It's european, latino, black, and chinese that are the main ethnic lines to be concerned about in US.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Europeanizing the Europeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaigidel View Post
    america is uniquely suitable to it though since we have no culture beyond our variety.-- we have no ancient things to cling too we simply are immigrants fighting to make money.
    And watch football.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Europeanizing the Europeans

    Well America is definitley moving away from the traditional WASP power group. With a black President (yeah yeah, half black) and the increasing hispanic population, America is starting to no longer resemble a European country out of Europe similiar to how Australia or NZ still feel imo.

    America for the first time is starting to come out of the shadow of its European past and attain it's own identity, I think many Europeans (and British people specifically) will begin to find it harder to identify with the US like they have so strongly in the past.

  12. #12
    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Europeanizing the Europeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
    Well America is definitley moving away from the traditional WASP power group. With a black President (yeah yeah, half black) and the increasing hispanic population, America is starting to no longer resemble a European country out of Europe similiar to how Australia or NZ still feel imo.

    America for the first time is starting to come out of the shadow of its European past and attain it's own identity, I think many Europeans (and British people specifically) will begin to find it harder to identify with the US like they have so strongly in the past.
    I think most White Americans will have trouble identifying with America anymore. Because lets face it, subconsciously or not, Whites think America is their country. Because it is, really- but thats a debate for another time. Point im trying to make? ****'s going to go down, thats what.

    Edit: And honestly, if things do continue the way they do, if Canada/America are no longer European countries outside of Europe, I'll be one of those people who don't identify with my country. I'll go back to Europe. Question to the OP: Is this what you, personally, are feeling?
    Last edited by Scar Face; March 15, 2009 at 11:33 PM.

  13. #13
    nce_wht_guy's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Europeanizing the Europeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Scar Face View Post
    I'll go back to Europe.
    You won't go back to anywhere, I don't care where your great-great-great grandfather was from or what color your skin is. YOU ARE NOT EUROPEAN! You're Canadian.
    Last edited by Justinian; March 16, 2009 at 11:26 PM.
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  14. #14
    deRougemont's Avatar Yeoman
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    Default Re: Europeanizing the Europeans

    Quote Originally Posted by nce_wht_guy View Post
    You won't go back to anywhere, I don't care where your great-great-great grandfather was from or what color your skin is. YOU ARE NOT EUROPEAN! You're Canadian.
    Some here question what European is, others that you cannot become European if you are not from there. Obviously, its hard to define something as large as that. Generalizations are necessary in threads like these. No one is writing a thesis here. I would argue that you cannot create an exact definition of what is European, but that you know it when you see it. The US Supreme Court was reduced to such a statement when having to grapple with porn. And if those smart cookies couldn't sort things out satisfactorily, none of us here will be able to. Though I grew up in America, I think I am more European than some Europeans themselves (having lived there and known many Europeans, I feel very secure in that presumption). It is a matter of perspective however. It isn't something that more than a handful of people will be able to agree on. I maintain however, that in fact you do know it when you see it. Culture is learned for both the native and the outsider who wishes to be an insider; that they do share in common.
    Last edited by Justinian; March 16, 2009 at 11:26 PM.






  15. #15

    Default Re: Europeanizing the Europeans

    Quote Originally Posted by deRougemont View Post
    Though I grew up in America, I think I am more European than some Europeans themselves (having lived there and known many Europeans, I feel very secure in that presumption).
    If that were true then this debate wouldn't be happening right now. Your question is rife with North American overgeneralisations and assumptions.

    Even the least culturally attached Europeans wouldn't be coming at this from the same angle you have.

    You're right that there is a general European culture, but it is very general. There is basically no difference between your definition of European culture and Western culture in general

  16. #16
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Europeanizing the Europeans

    i would debate america's multi cultural outlook.. its there, but is remarkably exclusive - as evidenced by some of the threads on here about mexicans, or arabs etc etc.

    both europe and the united states have similar situations really... far more similar than you'd both like to admit.

    the europeans fear expansion and consolidation of central power because it invites in hordes of romanians and ukranians and maybe one day turks to steal all their low wage jobs... and reduces the powers of individual states to govern themselves... the united states fears weakening of its borders because of the hordes of mexicans and cubans and colombians coming to steal their low wage jobs... and there's always the issue of states independence...
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Europeanizing the Europeans

    cultures change
    people hange
    and whose to define what is 'european'?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Europeanizing the Europeans

    The one thing Americans have in common is their disgust of how bad they've been getting ed by the system we've had in place for so long.

    I think its rather naive though to think that Europeans are more progressive in terms of multiculturalism than America, considering there is still a deep suspicion between the British and the French, the Poles and the Lithuanians, the continued conflicts between Bosnians and Serbs, and the Greeks versus northern Albanians. Heck, even a good example would be the conflicts between the Walloons and the Flems in Belgium.

    As for some parts of the OP, I do think its ridiculous that there seem to be some kind of pissing contest about how left-wing some governments are striving to be. It's increasingly elitist personalities that are driving the forces of America and Europe.
    Last edited by Admiral Piett; March 15, 2009 at 11:52 PM.
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  19. #19
    Phalanx300's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Europeanizing the Europeans

    I agree Scar Face, down with Multiculturism, the destroyer of cultures!

  20. #20

    Default Re: Europeanizing the Europeans

    Excuse me, but what the hell is this about?
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
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