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    Bovril's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Rethinking drug research and patents

    Evil drug companies are a cliche of modern life. Like all the negative economic cliches (bankers, employers, etc.), people tend to attach moral judgements (greed, inneficiency, calousness, etc.) but rarely propose systematic change. Maybe this is a lack of imaginiation, maybe the institutions that dictate public debate have no interest in changing anything. None the less, normal people can and should take another look at the systems that produce negative outcomes for them because its bad systems, not bad people, that really hurt when it comes to macroeconomics.

    So in this thread I want to talk about pharmaceuticals. I want to start right of by saying that about half the research done in the US is publically funded, about 30 out of 60 billion dollars. So straight away you've got half the drug research essentially constituting a subsidy to drug companies. The real number is bigger, because alot of the research done by drug companies is not substansive -it involves creating copycat drugs- or is done on things with far less social utility, like diet pills or hair loss treatments. Further public subsidy to drug companies comes from the fact that the government that paid for half or more of the research then goes on to buy the drugs back at the vastly inflated price created by the patent that that government guarantees. What's more, in the US, the government is not allowed, by law, to bargain down the costs of the drugs it buys from these companies: it has to pay 'market prices' (except in a market hugely scewed by its own action).

    Now obviously the outcomes for normal people of this subsidee to the tiny proportion of the population that have a stake in the profits of drug companies are negative, not just in terms of taxes paid, but in terms of the cost and quality of health care. So what can be done? For me there are two viable routes to go down, one which has been tried, and one which is an adaptation of the current system, so neither are out of the blue. Here they are:


    Changing the nature of patents:

    Thailand pioneered a system that has caught on in other develloping countries whereby the nature of patents gets changed. Essentially a patent works like a franchise rather than a monopoly. Essentially the law dicates that all information is private domain, and that any company can produce any drug they like. However, the holder of the patent gets a share of every sale they make. This has cut the price of drugs in these countries dramatically. Its a nice solution for some countries in a world like the one we live in today, and I applaude it. It makes drugs avaiable to markets where they essentially would have been out of the picture previously. But maybe it is only appropriate for such markets. It can't really hurt drug companies to have their profits shifted around a little in a country like Thailand where instead of getting a lot from a few they get a little from a lot. But in rich countries, this strategy would really cut into their profits. Would this damage the quality of research? I don't know, its never been tested.


    Changing the nature of research funding:

    Half research in the US (where, let's face it, most research goes on) is funded by tax payers. Now the average US taxpayer would stand to make a lot of money if they chose to fund all of it. Why do I say that? Well, the money you lose on research you more than make up for on the reduction in drug prices. This could be done in number of ways. Stiglitz proposed a simple system of awards to succesfull research companies every time they came up with something worth while. Dean Baker proposed a system of private contracts to research companies which were periodically reviewed in order to ensure substansive research was progressing. But both agree that public funding of research and public availability of the results of research would save almost everybody a lot of money. Instead of buying your brand drugs for $400 you'd get them from Wall-Mart for $4.
    Another benefit of this type of research is that it could be done internationally. Obviously drug breakthroughs are of benefit to people all over the globe. Whilst public drug research at present largely constitutes a subsidee to national industries (or at least their owners) if you took out that factor then international cooperation on drug research would make a lot of sense. So the US could pay a more reasonable percentage of the world's bedget for drug research meaning further savings for US taxpayers.



    The big objection raised to this sort of initiative is typically that governments shouldn't interfere in the economy and that publically funded research is inneficient. In response to that I'd point out that patents constitute a massive interferance in the economy in the first place and that public funding of research and spending on brand name drugs is also a massive interferance, but no drug company wants to get rid of that. In fact they are constantly advocating increases in those things for obvious reasons. As for the inefficiency of publically funded research there are two salient points. First, research could be done on the market, but payed for centrally. Second, efficiency is a judgement about expenditure of valued resouces vs. production of valued outcomes. I regard outcomes that benefit a tiny minority at the expense of the large majority as horrifically inefficient because I don't value that outcome. If only researching things that can make billions of dollars in sales and taking no risks is what you value, then drug companies are doing a great job being efficient in their research programs. But I doubt that is what you value.

  2. #2
    Zephyrus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Rethinking drug research and patents

    Us government should be a voice for its people, so with huge reform that should take place nowadays, I would support option 2.
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    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
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    Default Re: Rethinking drug research and patents

    Are you confusing medical research with drug research?

    Source of your numbers would be nice. The $30b apent by the drug companies on original R&D sounds about right, but I think the government spends nothing directly on R&D. If you are referring to grant money for raw medical research -- most of that goes to procedures and studies of basic disease mechanisms and not to the actual drug research.

    Interesting idea though. I will think a bit and get back with you.
    Last edited by Viking Prince; March 16, 2009 at 01:04 AM.
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    Default Re: Rethinking drug research and patents

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    Are you confusing medical research with drug research?
    I'm talking about the kind of research that is necessary for develloping drugs, which of course includes fairly fundemental research that would never get done in a free market system. I'm not talking about research into surgical techniques or whatever. The really fundemental stuff, done in Universities etc., I didn't factor in at all, though, of course, much of that is publically funded as well.
    Last edited by Bovril; March 16, 2009 at 01:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Rethinking drug research and patents

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovril View Post
    I'm talking about the kind of research that is necessary for develloping drugs, which of course includes fairly fundemental research that would never get done in a free market system. I'm not talking about research into surgical techniques or whatever. The really fundemental stuff, done in Universities etc., I didn't factor in at all, though, of course, much of that is publically funded as well.

    OK -- so where are you finding the the US govt is spending $30b???
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    Default Re: Rethinking drug research and patents

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    OK -- so where are you finding the the US govt is spending $30b???
    The refference is offline (Dean Baker - The Conservative Nanny State: 32 private, 28 public). Here's an online source which uses a different assesment, putting both figures around 20 billion -
    http://www.cepr.net/documents/public...ty_2004_09.pdf

    Most of that funding is coming from the 28 billion budget of the NIH, but there are other public sources as well. I'm sure you could quibble over what constitutes research useful for drug devellopment. Its not a question I'm able to answer in specifics.

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    Default Re: Rethinking drug research and patents

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovril View Post
    The refference is offline (Dean Baker - The Conservative Nanny State: 32 private, 28 public). Here's an online source which uses a different assesment, putting both figures around 20 billion -
    http://www.cepr.net/documents/public...ty_2004_09.pdf

    Most of that funding is coming from the 28 billion budget of the NIH, but there are other public sources as well. I'm sure you could quibble over what constitutes research useful for drug devellopment. Its not a question I'm able to answer in specifics.
    Thanks for the reference, but I do not see any data on government research expenditures.

    The report is flawed though in using economc deadweight calculations for a process that is not assured of market entry without the patent system. Deadweight loss calculations are based on a commodity competitive market. Cannot calculate of something such as drugs that have yet to be invented.

    Also the assumption that marketing is nearly always a wasted expenditure is false. This flows back into another error in the deadweight calculation.

    As well as the assumption that research on duplicative drugs is a waste. The clinical need for duplicative drugs is great because of minor differences may mean individual effectness that works on one but not on several other versions is lost. This is 2/3 of the research money and is driven solely by the patent system. You lose this and a great many patients will not have a cure or will lose effectivness over time of using a single choice.

    Duplicative drugs are useful and drive quite a bit of marketing as well as research dollars. Another flaw in the deadweight calculation.
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    Default Re: Rethinking drug research and patents

    Sure, I wouldn't hold up that report as the be all and end all of policy.

    When it comes to advertising, I can't see how that doesn't almost always constitute a dead weight. Maybe you can explain the social utility of advertising?

    Duplicative drugs can be useful. But research into duplicative drugs not directed by drug effectiveness, but profit motive, so effectiveness suffers. I agree that a range of similar drugs should be develloped, but the market system is a terrible way of doing so. The fact that information on the existing drug is not available makes for lots of unnecessary expenditure. The fact patents need to be got around mean that useful techniques cannot be used. The fact that providing the same drug is preferable to providing a useful alternative for these companies means that genuinely useful alternatives do not receive the attention they deserve compared with drugs that really are intended to simply be copycats.

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    Default Re: Rethinking drug research and patents

    How about just cutting out the 30 billion in market distorting publicly funded research?

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    Default Re: Rethinking drug research and patents

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacifist Hummingbird View Post
    How about just cutting out the 30 billion in market distorting publicly funded research?
    Good luck finding private companies willing to research the basics of medical science. Its not reliably profitable, especially in the short term, so it wouldn't happen.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Rethinking drug research and patents

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovril View Post
    Good luck finding private companies willing to research the basics of medical science. Its not reliably profitable, especially in the short term, so it wouldn't happen.
    So? Who says we must have basic research?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacifist Hummingbird View Post
    So? Who says we must have basic research?
    Everyone on the forum. If you'd rather be a subsistence farmer go for it. If you want to reap the benefits of publically funded research, continue posting.

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    Default Re: Rethinking drug research and patents

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovril View Post
    Everyone on the forum. If you'd rather be a subsistence farmer go for it. If you want to reap the benefits of publically funded research, continue posting.
    That makes no sense whatsoever.

    It is not necessary for the government to fund basic research, it is merely popular to do so.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Rethinking drug research and patents

    Personally i think that drug/medical research should not be a private enterprise to begin with. We talking about a basic need for human life, its completly unethical that we have people all over the world dying from diseases that are completly treatable simply because they can not afford the medications for their conditions.

    Privately owned pharmaceutical companies also gave rise to the completly unethical business of putting profits above safety and well being of the populace. And to the even more unethical business of "pushing" drugs through slanted ad campaigns.

    In health there should be no profit.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Rethinking drug research and patents

    A government researcher has no incentive to innovate, his job is secure as long with his pension fund.

    The private sector provides massive bonuses and profits. The incentive of profit propels innovation, his job is not secure until he creates something new

    there is somethings that can go against this theory, How they hell Soviet Russia was able to innovate on the same levels as the USA? what incentives were there for the Russian scientists? (hopefully not death threats)
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    Default Re: Rethinking drug research and patents

    the inability of a government funded researcher to not innovate is a fallacy that is propragated because of the high amount of profit to be had in the sector. Creativity and ingenuity are human traits, most scientist are in science because they want to research and innovate, to discover new and exciting theories in order to leave their mark in history.

    A government sponsored researcher has as much motivation to innovate as a private funded one. If anything a government sponsored researcher will likely achieve more innovation since they won't be restricted in their research to research only profitable theories.

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    Default Re: Rethinking drug research and patents

    Government does not exist to provide the basics of life. Government exists to provide the rule of law needed so that we do not kill each other off in an anarchic frenzy or through international chaos. The other services of government are only by convenience. Funding medical research has to be on page twelve of a list of priorities (reference to the late and great P. Harvey, r.i.p.).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
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  18. #18
    Bovril's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Rethinking drug research and patents

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    Government does not exist to provide the basics of life. Government exists to provide the rule of law needed so that we do not kill each other off in an anarchic frenzy or through international chaos. The other services of government are only by convenience. Funding medical research has to be on page twelve of a list of priorities (reference to the late and great P. Harvey, r.i.p.).
    Governments are responsible for the devellopment of so much technology the mind boggles. Just to give a few pertinent examples:
    Writing
    Machine Tools
    Computers
    Jet Engines
    The Internet

    There could be no modern world without public funding of research and devellopment, and as the pace of change increases, governments and publically funded bodies are responsible for more and more of the breakthroughs and devellopments we rely on today. Genetics was develloped in a publically funded institution, so was big bang theory. The Large Haron Collider and the hubbel telescope, and the Joint European Torus and JET (fusion reactors) are publically funded. Private inovations are often created under conditions of state sanctioned monopoly, see Bell Laboritories for an exampel (key in develloping the first real solar cells).
    Like it or not, the profit motive does not get really important research done. These days only publically organised bodies can raise the capital and gather the manpower to do the research that makes our modern world possible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Akhil_The_Great View Post
    A government researcher has no incentive to innovate, his job is secure as long with his pension fund.

    The private sector provides massive bonuses and profits. The incentive of profit propels innovation, his job is not secure until he creates something new
    The private sector could do the research, but it could be funded publically. This already occurs a lot and is responsible for all sorts of vital research into everything from cancer to alternative energy.
    Last edited by Bovril; March 17, 2009 at 01:31 PM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Rethinking drug research and patents

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    Government does not exist to provide the basics of life. Government exists to provide the rule of law needed so that we do not kill each other off in an anarchic frenzy or through international chaos. The other services of government are only by convenience. Funding medical research has to be on page twelve of a list of priorities (reference to the late and great P. Harvey, r.i.p.).
    Sorry i should had specified, i'm a socialist, providing the basic necessities of life is my idea of government. Enforcement of law and order is more prominent in another political ideology, which is fascism, look it up. in my opinion pain, suffering and disease should never be equal to someone's profit.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Rethinking drug research and patents

    But what is not in dispute is that publically funded R&D is necessary for the modern world to exist
    The world has always been "modern." The world in which live is only one of many that were possible. There is no reason to believe that this one is optimal.
    Last edited by The Devil's Sergeant; March 17, 2009 at 02:35 PM.

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