Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 61

Thread: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    .......................
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    33,982

    Default ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle2935442.ece

    As the nation settled down on Wednesday night to watch England play Croatia, I sensed an air of optimism in the land. A feeling that all would be well. I mean hey, England were holding their own against Brazil when Croatia didn’t even exist as a nation state. So what chance would these swarthy-looking Yugo-ruffians have? They were minnows in a tank of sharks. They weren’t going to be beaten. They were going to be eaten.

    Hmmm. I’m afraid I knew we were going to lose moments before the match began. I looked at our players mumbling their way through the national anthem and realised they didn’t really care about playing for England. Because they don’t really know what England is. And truth be told, neither do I.

    When I was their age it was crystal clear. Newspapers would report: “Fog in the Channel: Europe cut off.” Peter Ustinov would arrive at JFK airport and, having studied the signs saying “US citizens” and “Aliens”, he’d ask a security guard where the British should go. We were separate, different, better.

    We had hardback dark blue passports with a personal message from the Queen on the inside cover “requiring” that foreign border guards allow the bearer to do whatever he or she pleased without let or hindrance. Slap one of those down on a Frenchman’s desk and the crack of invitation grade cardboard would have the greasy little oik sitting up straight; that’s for sure.

    We had saved the world from tyranny so often we’d lost count; we’d brought decency, truth and cricket to every continent and every coral pinprick. We’d sailed iron steamships into America when they were still using coracles. We were defined by our brilliance, our superiority, our technical know-how.

    Today, things are rather different. Mention the war and you’ll be told by an outreach counsellor that we must empathise with the Germans, who are coming to terms with their mistakes of the past. “And you know, children, it was actually the British who invented concentration camps . . .”

    Empire? When I was at school, teachers spoke with pride about how a little island in the north Atlantic turned a quarter of the world pink, but now all teachers talk about is the slave trade and how we must hang our heads in shame.

    Right. So we must forgive Germany for invading Poland. But I must beat myself to death every night because my great-great-great-grandad moved some chap from a hellhole in Ghana to Barbados. In fact I can’t even say we’re British any more because then all of Scotland would rush over the border, pour porridge down my trousers and push a thistle up my bottom.

    I believe people need to feel like they’re part of a gang, part of a tribe. And I also believe we need to feel pride in our gang. But all we ever hear now is that we in England have nothing to be proud about. In a world of righteousness we are the child molesters and rapists.
    Our soldiers were murderers. Our empire builders were thieves. Our class system was ridiculous and our industrial revolution set in motion a chain of events that, eventually, will kill every polar bear in the Arctic.

    And it gets so much worse. Because if you say you are a patriot, men with beards and sandals will come round to your house in the night and daub BNP slogans on your front door. This is the only country in the world where the national flag is deemed offensive. Small wonder the England players were disinclined to sing the national anthem with any gusto. It’s in English and that’s offensive too. Unless it’s simultaneously translated into Urdu, for the deaf.

    Then there’s our national character. In the past, boys were told in school assembly that their mothers had died and were expected to get over it in a nice game of rugby. Crying only happened abroad. Not any more. We were ordered to weep like Americans when Diana died, and no local news report is complete today without some fat oik sobbing because his house has fallen over. I sometimes get the impression Kate McCann is being hounded precisely because she has a stiff upper lip.

    Every day we read obituaries about men who pressed on with the attack on a German machinegun nest even though their arms and legs had been blown off. Today disabled people get a statue in Trafalgar Square just because they got pregnant. Tomorrow all the obituaries will be for those who saved others from certain death by insisting they wear high visibility jackets. Cowardice is the new bravery.

    As for that wounded soldier seen recently sporting a T-shirt that said: “I went to Afghanistan and all I got was this crappy false leg,” I call that typically English. But not any more. It’s appalling. A slight on disabled people. And you shouldn’t have been in Afghanistan in the first place, you baby killer.

    Do you see? We can’t be proud of our past because it’s all bad, we can’t use British humour because it’s offensive and we can’t use understatement to deal with a crisis because the army of state-sponsored counsellors say we’ve got to sob uncontrollably at every small thing.

    I want to end with a question. It’s addressed to all the equal opportunity, human rights, diet carbon, back room, bleeding heart liberals who advise the government: “I am English. Why is that a good thing?”

    I bet they don’t have an answer. And until they can come up with one, chances are we’ll never win at football again.



    ------------
    think he goes over the top completely in some bits, but I think the theme and some of what he types here is almost spot on. What do we think?
    Last edited by Каие; March 16, 2009 at 12:30 PM.

  2. #2
    Treize's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Gelderland
    Posts
    16,093

    Default Re: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    I think Jeremy Clarkson is a genius...
    Miss me yet?

  3. #3
    .......................
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    33,982

    Default Re: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    Don't get too ahead of yourself. He's quite mad.

  4. #4
    Treize's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Gelderland
    Posts
    16,093

    Default Re: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe ♠ kb8 View Post
    Don't get too ahead of yourself. He's quite mad.
    He is often right in a very P-inC way
    Miss me yet?

  5. #5

    Default Re: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe ♠ kb8 View Post
    Don't get too ahead of yourself. He's quite mad.
    No, he's a genius.
    falnk with cavlary. stay a way from muder hoels.

  6. #6
    .......................
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    33,982

    Default Re: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    Quote Originally Posted by Dodge View Post
    No, he's a genius.
    No, he's quite mad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovril View Post
    A national anthem should be about a nation, not a figurehead. I refuse to sing it at international matches and so on. Asking God to make sure some heridatry ruler rules over me for as long as possibly doesn't have me brimming with national pride.
    The 'figurehead' is the personification of Britain, a direct link between the present and history of this country.

  7. #7
    Bovril's Avatar Primicerius
    Civitate Patrician

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    3,017

    Default Re: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe ♠ kb8 View Post
    The 'figurehead' is the personification of Britain, a direct link between the present and history of this country.
    The extent to which the queen personifies Britain is the extent to which class deferance and sycophancy loom large in our national consciousness. I agree whole heartedly that the queen links our history to our present. She links our history of brutal and illegitimate rule to the current illigitimacy of power and its exploitation of normal people by means of propoganda and appeal to higher powers (in the old days God and 'blood', these days the invisible hand or 'democracy' or whatever). I'd rather not make this history the focus of our national anthem. The nuanced sentiments of Jerusalem, beautifully encapsulated by one of the great English poets, and a great artist and philosopher to boot, represents England so much more roundly, and is so much more woven into the history of real Enlgish people (not our transnational monarchy).

  8. #8
    SorelusImperion's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Veldarin Empire
    Posts
    2,845

    Default Re: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    Indeed it went a bit over the top but the
    And until they can come up with one, chances are we’ll never win at football again.
    made me chuckle so I am going to give this man an answer:

    “I am English. Why is that a good thing?”
    One may call himself lucky beeing born into one of the worlds wealthier societys thus enjoying more oportunitys than most people but apart of that it's neither a good nor a bad thing. It's nothing worth to be proud of and (apart of the bad football/soccer team ) nothing worth to be ashamed of. It's simply a part of your identity and only your actions will show if it is worth beeing proud of who you are. If you and all of England are striving to make the world a better place then indeed you can be rightfully proud of beeing English.


    Do NOT complain that I say "England" the author does specifically asked what is good about beeing English.
    Frederick II of Prussia: "All Religions are equal and good, if only the people that practice them are honest people; and if Turks and heathens came and wanted to live here in this country, we would build them mosques and churches."
    Norge: "Give me a break. Nothing would make you happier than to see the eagle replaced with a crescent."

    Ummon:"enforcing international law will require that the enforcers do not respect it"
    Olmstead v USA:"Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. To declare that in the administration of the criminal law the end justifies the means-to declare that the government may commit crimes in order to secure the conviction of a private criminal-would bring terrible retribution. Against that pernicious doctrine this court should resolutely set its face."








    Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who can't defend themselfs.
    When you stand before god you can not say "I was told by others to do this" or that virtue was not convenient at the time

  9. #9
    Garrigan's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    West Country, England
    Posts
    2,478

    Default Re: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    OTT majorly, as is anything he's within 200m of *sigh*.

    Maybe some decent points about everything being too PC, but mostly BS. Obviously a lot of it was heavily ironic, but hey.

    EDIT:

    “I am English. Why is that a good thing?”
    We just hammered the frogs at rugby. Forget the Germans, we know who our true enemies are..

    Once known as Kasey| Hoplite for The Greek Wars Mod

  10. #10

    Default Re: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    How are you being robbed of your Englishness?
    My answer would be due to Tony Blair making you America's bumboys....
    Involuntarily.

  11. #11

    Default Re: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    Jeremy Clarkson talks big, hairy bollocks most of the time, this instance included.

    Full of contradictions too. So he doesn't want to be apologetic about the Empire, but he wants the Germans to be apologetic about the Second World War? How about we just agree that nobody apologises for things they haven't done.

  12. #12
    Fiyenyaa's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, United Kingdom
    Posts
    2,664

    Default Re: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    Quote Originally Posted by That Damn Robot! View Post
    Jeremy Clarkson talks big, hairy bollocks most of the time, this instance included.

    Full of contradictions too. So he doesn't want to be apologetic about the Empire, but he wants the Germans to be apologetic about the Second World War? How about we just agree that nobody apologises for things they haven't done.
    Agreed. I hate Jeremy Clarkson; he may be funny to watch, because you can laugh at his attitudes, but the shameful fact is that loads of people think he's spot on.
    I also find it funny how he is obsessed with the British Empire as being some proof of English greatness. There is no such thing as England, and there hasn't been since 1707. You'd think people would have gotten over that by now, given the 302 year interim.

  13. #13
    Yorkshireman's Avatar Praefectus
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Leeds, Yorkshire, England
    Posts
    6,232

    Default Re: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    In fact I can’t even say we’re British any more because then all of Scotland would rush over the border, pour porridge down my trousers and push a thistle up my bottom.
    Very amusing.

    He's got a point on some things we have become infected by a sort of poncey shame/pc culture. The politicians/media/chattering classes/BBC etc can say what they want, they can't stop normal people thinking what they want. I just go about my life how I choose and ignore it all.

  14. #14
    Bovril's Avatar Primicerius
    Civitate Patrician

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    3,017

    Default Re: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    Ah the old strawman of saying that thinking the British empire did lots of bad things, and that empires in general are bad, means being ashamed of being English. I see lots of things to be proud of in English history (the levellers, the chartists, the suffragettes) but according to Clarkson, you have to be proud of conquest and dominance to be proud of English or British achievments. I don't feel guilty over the British empire, I'm not to blame, but that donesn't mean I think it was a good thing. For Clarkson its one or the other. For him Britishness is bound up in Empire. This reveals much more about his ignorance than anything else.


    Then there’s our national character. In the past, boys were told in school assembly that their mothers had died and were expected to get over it in a nice game of rugby. Crying only happened abroad. Not any more.
    Oh the tradgedy! What has our nation become?!?

    Seriously, does he write this nonsense whilst drunk?

  15. #15

    Default Re: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    It sounds very likely so.
    "In the name of God, stop a moment, cease your work, look around you. "
    -Leo Tolstoy

  16. #16

    Default Re: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovril View Post
    Ah the old strawman of saying that thinking the British empire did lots of bad things, and that empires in general are bad, means being ashamed of being English. I see lots of things to be proud of in English history (the levellers, the chartists, the suffragettes) but according to Clarkson, you have to be proud of conquest and dominance to be proud of English or British achievments. I don't feel guilty over the British empire, I'm not to blame, but that donesn't mean I think it was a good thing. For Clarkson its one or the other. For him Britishness is bound up in Empire. This reveals much more about his ignorance than anything else.
    Top post

    Clarkson is like the hardline Conservatives during the Attlee government who could be heard to bemoan how "It's become like the ing Soviet Union in this country!"

    I bet Clarkson and Kelvin MacKenzie are big mates; both are private school rejects and both are ignorant hacks from the Sun. Makes sense.

  17. #17

    Default Re: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovril View Post
    A

    Oh the tradgedy! What has our nation become?!?

    Seriously, does he write this nonsense whilst drunk?
    No I think he just had Monty Python's meaning of life on in the background somewhere.

  18. #18
    Georgy Zhukov's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Arizona USA
    Posts
    3,382

    Default Re: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    Unfortunately all of my knowledge on Jeremy Clarkson comes from watching topgear on BBC America.

  19. #19
    Zephyrus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    4,598

    Default Re: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    Blame PC, and a powerful multi-cultural propaganda tool your government is taking way too far here.
    SEMPER FIDELIS Remember Constantinople Κωνσταντινούπολη


  20. #20

    Default Re: ''We've been robbed of our Englishness''

    Rome, you normally post fairly enlightened stuff to these forums, why on earth have you lowered yourself to Clarkson of all people. Mildly amusing on topgear, but utterly idiotic elsewhere.

    I don't know how long it is since Clarkson had a history lesson about the empire, but as a current A-Level history student I can tell you that history lessons don't drill shame or guilt into people, they merely tell the whole story and opposed to just the glory. It is up to the student to make an informed choice whether to be proud or ashamed of the empire, or indeed recognise that it is far more rational to be both selectively.
    Clarkson only looks at one side of the empire - the glory and achievement, and assumes everyone else only looks at the other - the slavery and opression. He is wrong, most rational people are able to acknowledge both sides of the story.

    In his view, Englishness comes down to Stiff Upper Lip (and he does whine an awful lot), Empire (an Empire which was largely won and maintained by Irish and Scotsmen), and Tradition (which I see him doing little to preserve).

    My suggestion to Mr. Clarkson is that he take up Morris dancing, one of the few good English traditions that pesky PC brigade hasn't banned for being offensive (yet).
    Last edited by cristophe el perno; March 16, 2009 at 02:25 PM. Reason: Poor spelling


Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •