Has the West lost the plot?

[The Dude]

Before commenting, please also read my next post just a bit down this page. It elaborates further on the points I'm making here and might offer some more perspective on my reasoning.

Mexico is currently a country overrun by crime. Venezuela is a country under the leadership of a military dictator. Brazil is a country where tourbusses full of football hooligans can open fire on each other on the highway, while the government is too corrupt to give a damn.

In Africa, we see everything south of the Sahara in a constant state of famine and strife. Corruption grips almost every state, food is scarce, children get rallied to fight wars. Stable african countries are few and far between, and the countries that are considered the top tier of african society are still home to gangrape and organised crime.

The Middle East. A world full of dictatorships, greedy oil-sheiks and Islamic extremists. Iran is a mess, Saudi Arabia happily funds militant groups with oil money and from Morocco to Pakistan, women walk the streets in cover. In some extreme cases, they aren't even allowed outside.

Russia, a country where the greatest mass murderer of all time is revitalised and reintroduced to society. History books are being rewritten and people are encouraged to forget the horrors in favour of the strength he gave to Russia. Police raids on criminals can be followed on live TV. A nation's strength and spirit is restored through brute force.

The far east. Chinese workers get to enjoy the comfort of their single-room appartments that they get to share with 15 family members or fellow workers. Free voting is still an illusion. Tibet and Taiwan are under constant threat from the chinese military. North Korea is a country that houses the most disturbing dictatorial personality cult in the entire cult, as the population is brainwashed into believing that their Dear Leader is a god.

In South and Southeast Asia you'll find civil war, humanitarian crises that the government refuses aid for, random shootings in cities and a standard of living that we in the west wouldn't even rate as low. Abysmal is more like it.

And what do we have here in the west? Well, perhaps we're not perfect but I feel at least justified to call our collective nations a relatively stable and safe society. We're being hit hard by a recession if the news it to be believed, but then economic hardship is part of the capitalism we've embraced, under the motto that life can't always be about roses. We have good education, we have freedom of speech and thought, we have democracy. For some reason, that I'm sure a qualified historian could explain better than I, we have grown to be a corner of the world where everything's just a little bit better than elsewhere. Maybe even a lot better, at times.

Looking at it like this, one can wonder: are we the rule, or are we the exception. If the entire world is messed up to a degree that we can't even fathom, is our situation really that normal? There's no point in pretending that we don't have it better than the rest. There's not a single westerner on this forum who would've been happier to be born in Iran or Nigeria.

For some reason, our rather excessive wealth plagues our minds with guilt. Yearly, we collectively donate thousands of billions to development aid worldwide. We have an open door immigration policy because we want people from poorer and less fortunate parts of the world to come and enjoy the fruits of our labors. To know freedom and security, unlike in their native countries. We want cultural enrichment, because we feel shallow at times. We try to act like we love everything and everyone, and that every nation and every culture adds their own little bit of beauty to the collective grandeur of humanity.

Aren't we being terribly naive? Nobody brought the west to where it is today other than our own efforts. After the Roman Empire collapsed and we plunged into a few centuries of medieval darkness, our societies rebuilt and for some reason we progressed beyond the realms of comfort to try new things. New political systems, new economies. We didn't get where we were today on handouts and migrating all over the world to find fortune elsewhere. So why are we under the illusion that our money and our open door immigration will help other countries develop to our level?

If there is one thing that plagues the west, it's the fact don't recognise enough the fact that we can't help everyone. There is a point at which lines have to be drawn. For some reason we have taken our values of liberty and equality and we've become properly obsessed with them, applying them everywhere and anywhere without context or regard for the consequences. We grant immigrants the freedom to convert entire city blocks to their culture. We refuse to speak against them because we consider them to have equal rights. We give them equal rights because we think they should have the freedom to enjoy these things.

We regard liberty and equality as basic human rights, but are they really? Aren't they just exceptional values home to an exceptional society that in every way rises above the standard of the rest of the world? What do the Chinese know of freedom? What does someone from Chad know of equality?

I won't pretend like the west is free from the problems that other parts of the world face. We have our quarrels. Northern Ireland remains a delicate situation for the UK. The Spanish have a few folk that want to secede to form their own country (I forget the name). But compared to the rest of the world, isn't it clear that we handle these situations with relative civility? And don't nations like South Korea and Japan get to enjoy their Western-esque societies precisely because they are so entangled in ours? If for some of you this seems to contradict my earlier statement that our influence won't improve the situation of other countries, I'll remind you of an even earlier one: we can't help everyone.

The west needs to come to its senses and understand that the only reason we are strong today is because of -us-. Not because of letting every and any fortune seeker into our nations. Not because of our overzealous generosity when it comes to the financial misfortune of third world countries. Certainly not because of letting a barbaric and archaic culture establish a certain level of dominance here under the guise of cultural diversity. To use a popular phrase: if we want to "spread the wealth around" that's fine, but let's not get in over our heads by sacrificing our gains and our freedoms to a world that for the most part seems to completely lack the potential to achieve the things we ourselves have achieved.

Because for all our goodwill, it's pointless giving help to people who have no clue what to do with it. They will drag us down to their level, and we'll remember with shame our generous naiveté. As the saying goes; the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Ran]

Greedy oil-sheikhs, I'm thinking about sigging this. And don't forget Yemen, a civil war will likely break out in a few years. Stop being one-sided. Woman aren't allowed outside? I think you should be more focused on fixing your own ignorance than that of the extremists. It's funny how you say "greedy oil-sheikhs" like we're still some pirates roaming the mideast.

Sigh, I won't even bother with the rest. Sorry.-

[The Fishman]

We didn't get where we were today on handouts and migrating all over the world to find fortune elsewhere.

Yes we did. We got here by reading books either borrowed from Greek refugees or stolen from Spanish Arabs, then using our newfound knowledge to build ships and migrate to America in order to steal their fortune*. All the books and democracy and things came after Europe had already 'won'. Western civilisation stands on the shoulders of other giants, just like every other society. It was no great American dream.





*Note to historian-type people: this is probably a gross simplification but you get the general gist

[Junius]

[Citations needed]

[hehehe]

Dude, go read history. Maybe some day you will be taken seriously.

[Junius]

'Guns, Germs and Steel' by Jared Diamond is an excellent book to read about the roots of European becoming the powerhouse it is. I suggest you read it, or try to catch the T.V series produced by The History Channel.

Quoted from Wikipedia:

...
Diamond argues that: the gaps in power and technology between human societies originate in environmental differences amplified by various positive feedback loops; and that, if cultural or genetic differences have favored Eurasians (for example Chinese centralized government, or improved disease resistance among Eurasians), it is only so because of the influence of geography.
...
Diamond highlights two major environmental advantages of Eurasia over other areas in which farming apparently developed independently. The various Eurasian inventors of farming, and especially those in "South West Asia" (roughly Mesopotamia and Turkey) had by far the best natural endowment of crops and of domesticable animals in the size range from goats or dogs upwards - the superiority in domesticable animals was the more extreme, as other areas had at most two and often none.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel

[IrishHitman]

We feel we can't interfere because that would violate the sovereignty of the nations that you have talked about. But sending money is perfectly acceptable.....

Yet, we won't cancel their debts...

[The Dude]

'Guns, Germs and Steel' by Jared Diamond is an excellent book to read about the roots of European becoming the powerhouse it is. I suggest you read it, or try to catch the T.V series produced by The History Channel.

Quoted from Wikipedia:

...
Diamond argues that: the gaps in power and technology between human societies originate in environmental differences amplified by various positive feedback loops; and that, if cultural or genetic differences have favored Eurasians (for example Chinese centralized government, or improved disease resistance among Eurasians), it is only so because of the influence of geography.
...
Diamond highlights two major environmental advantages of Eurasia over other areas in which farming apparently developed independently. The various Eurasian inventors of farming, and especially those in "South West Asia" (roughly Mesopotamia and Turkey) had by far the best natural endowment of crops and of domesticable animals in the size range from goats or dogs upwards - the superiority in domesticable animals was the more extreme, as other areas had at most two and often none.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel

I argued this today in a discussion with someone else actually. Our geographical "starting location" so to speak has definitely been an advantage of our development.

With that said, look at what happens in post-colonial countries. Latin and South America is one massive hive of criminality and corruption, yet they have their roots in European (Spanish/Portugese) culture.

What I simply don't get is why so many countries outside of "the west" are absolute rubbish. I mean, I'm hardly trying to be racist (this isn't an issue of race anyway), but come on. I've spoken to Brazilians who don't even want to return to Brazil because it's so corrupt. I've spoken to Moroccans who eagerly highlight the fanaticism of the Moroccan king. There are Chinese people in interviews with western television saying how they'd -love- to be able to live in a country where they could freely vote.

The far-east is becoming an economical powerhouse through sheer mass labour. The power of production, the power of the worker employed on a scale we westerners can't even fathom. But at the same time people are stuffed by masses into crappy appartments, have no money available to make ends meet and can't even afford to visit a doctor if they have an illness. That's the price china pays for its economy, so it seems like we are better off still.

It feels like we are trying to provide for everyone by keeping our doors open, but there has to be a realistic ratio of Westerners vs Foreigners in our countries. The thing that makes western countries great is the mentality we've developed over the centuries due to the developments we've gone through. If we start turning foreigners into a great share of our population, we might suddenly find that our countries no longer have the attitude required to be succesful.

[Last Roman]

'Guns, Germs and Steel' by Jared Diamond is an excellent book to read about the roots of European becoming the powerhouse it is. I suggest you read it, or try to catch the T.V series produced by The History Channel.

while that book gives an excellent account as to why Europeans came to dominate the world, it doesn't really answer the dude's question as to why Europeans (and western influenced people) feel the need to dole out sun shine and lollipops. I personally think its a combination of western arrogance/patronization (oh, look at the poor starving africans) and sincere concern (oh , look at the starving africans, we need to help)

[Treize]

Let's take back Suriname and make it a special 13th province.
(With a maximum on immigration offcourse last time half the country settled in the Bijlmer...)

[Каие]

Time to rebuild the Royal Navy, I think.

[IrishHitman]

Time to rebuild the Royal Navy, I think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_E...rcraft_carrier

[Scar Face]

Time to rebuild the Royal Navy, I think.

Wtf? Time to rebuild the Royal navy when the economy is spiraling downwards into a massive recession if were lucky, and a depression more than likely? The West is insolvent, and your talking about military escapades?

[Каие]

Wtf? Time to rebuild the Royal navy when the economy is spiraling downwards into a massive recession if were lucky, and a depression more than likely? The West is insolvent, and your talking about military escapades?

I didn't mean the Canadian Royal Navy.

Nah, just kidding, I keep getting told by the 'anti-bank bailout and stimulus group' that the best way to escape a depression, like last time, is to have a world war I.e. military spending. But truth be told, I didn't even consider the economy at all when I wrote that post.

[Scar Face]

I didn't mean the Canadian Royal Navy.

Nah, just kidding, I keep getting told by the 'anti-bank bailout and stimulus group' that the best way to escape a depression, like last time, is to have a world war I.e. military spending. But truth be told, I didn't even consider the economy at all when I wrote that post.

Understandable. But trust me, anyone who says a war helps the economy is a moron.

[Каие]

Understandable. But trust me, anyone who says a war helps the economy is a moron.

I'm not of that belief of course, but just remembered that when you brought it up

[Каие]

Excellent.

[mongrel]

Jon Stewart knows what's been going wrong the US.(See thread) I am surprised the OP does not see it.

[Central Asian Qaghan]

I like how you classify Russia as a third world hell hole. I'd consider it much better than the corrupt netherlands.

And I assume you'll never set foot outside your country to go to a non-westernized nation so each on of these discussions are as false as anything else.

[Holger Danske]

I like how you classify Russia as a third world hell hole. I'd consider it much better than the corrupt netherlands.

And I assume you'll never set foot outside your country to go to a non-westernized nation so each on of these discussions are as false as anything else.

You seriously consider Russia a better place to live than the Netherlands? Boy you're a hilarious, yet utterly pathetic troll...