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    Default Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America


    Lexington
    |Le vieux canard

    Mar 12th 2009
    From The Economist print edition

    More nonsense about Europe and America






    A SPECTRE is haunting the United States—the spectre of Europe. Republicans such as Newt Gingrich, the grand old man of the party, and Mike Pence, one of its firebrands, say that Barack Obama’s Democrats are imposing “European-style socialism” on America. “As they try to pull us in the direction of government-dominated Europe,” says Mitt Romney, arguably the front-runner for the Republican nomination in 2012, “we’re going to have to fight as never before to make sure that America stays America.”
    This sort of sentiment is not confined to the cave-dwellers of the right. Roger Cohen, a liberal New York Times columnist, worries that “one France is enough”. Kenneth Rogoff, a Harvard economist, says “I take the 2008 US elections as marking a turn toward continental Europe.” Six years after Robert Kagan claimed that “Americans are from Mars and Europeans are from Venus”, there is a growing feeling that the two planets are destined to merge.
    But are they? They are certainly getting a bit closer. Mr Obama is raising taxes on the rich, bailing out failed businesses, tackling climate change and dramatically increasing public spending. A decade ago American government spending stood at 34.3% of GDP compared with 48.2% in the euro zone, a gap of 14 points; in 2010 it is expected to be 39.9% of GDP compared with 47.1%, a gap of less than eight points, according to Newsweek.
    What is more, Mr Obama’s rise has coincided with a softening of American exceptionalism. America is unlikely to repeat George Bush’s America über alles foreign policy in the near future. A growing number of states have imposed moratoriums on the death penalty. Support is growing for everything leftish, from tackling global warming to letting gays marry.
    Still, the two planets have a very long way to travel before they meet. Consider a horrific event at a First Baptist Church in Illinois on March 8th. An unknown assailant pulled out a semi-automatic weapon and started firing at the preacher. The preacher managed to deflect the gunman’s first four rounds using his Bible, sending a confetti-like spray of paper into the air, but was eventually felled. That is not the sort of thing that goes on of a Sunday in Tunbridge Wells.
    There is nothing particularly “European” or “socialist” about Mr Obama’s stimulus package. Countries the world over are spending public money in a bid to boost demand and shore up the banks. Indeed, some of the most stubborn resistance to deficit financing has come from Europe, particularly from Germany and the EU finance ministers. Messrs Gingrich and Romney might note that the man who set this ball rolling was not Mr Obama but Mr Bush, the most un-European politician imaginable.
    What about Mr Obama’s plans to raise taxes and redirect social policy? There are plenty of plausible criticisms of these (such as the fact that his numbers do not add up), but the idea that they entail “full-scale Europeanisation”, as Mark Steyn, a columnist, argues, is one of the least persuasive. Mr Obama’s budget will return the top tax rates to 36% and 39.6%—back to where they were during Bill Clinton’s administration. Mr Clinton ended up presiding over the high-tech boom and a surge in the number of small businesses. Mr Obama has eschewed the single-payer model of health-care reform long advocated by the European-minded left; he wants to use public insurance to supplement the private system, not supplant it. Many of the strongest supporters of his health-care reforms are business people who are being crushed by the exorbitant cost of health care.
    For all Europe’s Obamamania Mr Obama is, in fact, one of the least European-minded of American presidents. JFK studied at the London School of Economics with Harold Laski, a leading British socialist. Bill Clinton went to Oxford University and surrounded himself with Rhodes scholars who liked to discuss the German educational model. John Kerry was famously not just French-speaking but also “French-looking”.
    Mr Obama’s roots lie in Kenya, Indonesia and Kansas—any continent but Europe. His two books hardly mention Europe at all. “The Audacity of Hope” includes a disparaging reference to the idea that America should “round up the United Kingdom and Togo” as supporters—and then do as it pleases. The only European country that gets a mention in the index under “Foreign policy, US” is Ukraine—and that nation gets less space than Indonesia.

    Consider the converse


    The fury about “European socialism” is not just wrong as a matter of fact. It is foolish as a matter of policy. Europe has plenty of things to teach the United States (particularly about running a welfare state), just as America has plenty to teach Europe (particularly about igniting entrepreneurialism). Indeed, a more telling criticism of the Obama administration is not that it is borrowing too much from Europe but that it is learning too little.
    Sweden and the Netherlands have a comprehensive system of school choice (the Dutch even allow public money to flow to religious schools). Switzerland and the Netherlands have a market-based system of health care which uses private insurers, covers everyone, and does so at a much lower cost than the American system. Britain has taken contracting-out in the public sector much further than America has done.
    Europeans and Americans are never likely to coalesce: their cultural traditions are too strong and their solutions to the problem of regulating capitalism too distinctive. But they nevertheless have plenty in common—ageing populations, exploding entitlements and above all, at the moment, a wrenching recession. Europeans have thankfully toned down the America-bashing that was popular a few years ago. Americans might consider returning the compliment.


    http://www.economist.com/world/unite...ry_id=13278271
    Last edited by Babur; March 14, 2009 at 07:28 AM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America

    The horror.

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    Default Re: Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    The horror.
    yuh Europe is evil especially since socialised medicine is widespread
    Last edited by Babur; March 14, 2009 at 07:31 AM.
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    Default Re: Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaghatai Khan View Post
    yuh Europe is evil especially since socialised medicine is widespread
    Oh God, Oh God!!!
    Now the poor people will NOT die
    Horror horror!!!

    You have to pay your own healthcare!!!
    The one 95% cannot afford
    Miss me yet?

  5. #5

    Default Re: Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America

    I'm so bored of any thread concerning "European" policies or socialism on this forum - the vast majority of participants have no idea what they are talking about and indeed would view learning about such things as a vague form of betrayal.

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    Default Re: Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    I'm so bored of any thread concerning "European" policies or socialism on this forum - the vast majority of participants have no idea what they are talking about and indeed would view learning about such things as a vague form of betrayal.
    Well they don't have any idea what socialism actually is,maybe they should pick up a copy of Das Kapital :hmmm:.
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    Default Re: Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    I'm so bored of any thread concerning "European" policies or socialism on this forum - the vast majority of participants have no idea what they are talking about and indeed would view learning about such things as a vague form of betrayal.
    lol, indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker View Post
    You guys also don't maintain a ing empire either. Don't start with the universal healthcare. We can't afford it. Not saying that all universal systems are bad, we just literally cannot afford it.
    think i have to go with ferrets here. maybe that military budget (of which u spend more than the rest of the world combined) could do with some choppings? foreign policy to be rethought?

    u know britain used to maintain a physical, global empire on around 2.5% of its GDP going to its armed forces.

    i think really, that the US needs to stop fearing the red menace. Some forms of socialism are good! getting decent healthcare doesnt mean stalin's going to come back from the dead and take over the country !
    Last edited by Carach; March 14, 2009 at 10:37 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Carach View Post
    lol, indeed.



    think i have to go with ferrets here. maybe that military budget (of which u spend more than the rest of the world combined) could do with some choppings? foreign policy to be rethought?

    u know britain used to maintain a physical, global empire on around 2.5% of its GDP going to its armed forces.

    i think really, that the US needs to stop fearing the red menace. Some forms of socialism are good! getting decent healthcare doesnt mean stalin's going to come back from the dead and take over the country !
    ....Carach speaking sense....
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; March 14, 2009 at 11:42 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  9. #9
    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    ....Carach speaking sense....

    ...Does not compute....
    ...it happens from time to time..

    ............

  10. #10

    Default Re: Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    I'm so bored of any thread concerning "European" policies or socialism on this forum - the vast majority of participants have no idea what they are talking about and indeed would view learning about such things as a vague form of betrayal.
    Well said..

  11. #11

    Default Re: Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America

    You guys also don't maintain a ing empire either. Don't start with the universal healthcare. We can't afford it. Not saying that all universal systems are bad, we just literally cannot afford it.
    Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri

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    Default Re: Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker View Post
    You guys also don't maintain a ing empire either. Don't start with the universal healthcare. We can't afford it. Not saying that all universal systems are bad, we just literally cannot afford it.
    Pull out of some foreign bases, stop giving foreign aid to countries that don't need it (e.g. Israel), viola, money found.
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    Default Re: Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    stop giving foreign aid to countries that don't need it (e.g. Israel), viola, money found.
    ... What do you expect us to do, kill all the lobbyists?

    AIPAC has us by the balls dude. We can't do except for choke on our bright red ball-gags.
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    Default Re: Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker View Post
    You guys also don't maintain a ing empire either. Don't start with the universal healthcare. We can't afford it. Not saying that all universal systems are bad, we just literally cannot afford it.
    maybe not to the extent that the UK or France has, but something like the Netherlands (ie, an integrated public-private system) would be very possible. We might have to make cuts elsewhere, but god knows we could easily find more than enough places to cut the proverbial fat.

    I've heard (and I not saying this is founded in fact, but throwing it out there) that it actually costs businesses more now than if we had some sort of health care system put in because of all the sick days called in. not sure if thats true or not, but its interesting,
    Last edited by Last Roman; March 14, 2009 at 09:28 AM.
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    Default Re: Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman View Post
    maybe not to the extent that the UK or France has, but something like the Netherlands (ie, an integrated public-private system) would be very possible. We might have to make cuts elsewhere, but god knows we could easily find more than enough places to cut the proverbial fat.

    I've heard (and I not saying this is founded in fact, but throwing it out there) that it actually costs businesses more now than if we had some sort of health care system put in because of all the sick days called in. not sure if thats true or not, but its interesting,
    I suppose our welfare/healthcare system is almost the same as the UK and France's ones.
    If you want to see private owned hospitals go to Belgium.
    Lots of rich dutch people go to private clinics in Flanders
    Last edited by Treize; March 14, 2009 at 11:09 AM.
    Miss me yet?

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    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by IPA35 View Post
    I suppose our welfare/healthcare system is almost the same as the UK and France's ones.
    If you want to see private owned hospitals go to Belgium.
    Lots of rich dutch people go to private clinics in Flanders
    What are you talking about?

    EVERY hospital in the Netherlands is privately owned.
    We do not have any government payed health care except for very basic first aid.
    And since a few years we no longer have government health insurance either.

    The only thing government controlled about our health care system is:
    -Health insurance is mandatory, just like car insurance for example.
    -Health insurance companies must accept everybody for their most basic insurance policy, no matter what their medical history is.


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  17. #17
    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America

    What nonsense?

    Truth is, Europeans are more socialist than Americans.

    Our leftists are moving further in that direction.

    That's something we shouldn't want.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

  18. #18

    Default Re: Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker View Post
    You guys also don't maintain a ing empire either. Don't start with the universal healthcare. We can't afford it. Not saying that all universal systems are bad, we just literally cannot afford it.
    How ridiculous. The population of the EU is bigger than that of the US, and many of it's countries aren't in a good economic shape. Yet it has a higher GDP than the US and nearly all of it's members universal healthcare and other socialisation policies.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  19. #19

    Default Re: Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America

    Of all the arguments for the United States not having universal healthcare feigning poverty is literally the most absurd one I have ever heard on the forums.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Le vieux canard: More nonsense about Europe and America

    Reading this kind of thing, I often get the feeling there are large stretches of US society that have a lot of growing up left to do. They're so frantic.
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