Beyond Italy?

[AqD]

Hello ExRM devs!

I come to ask you guys if you have any ideas about early Roman expansion beyond Italy (and before the reform)?

- Assume the conquered people wouldn't receive full citizenship, so there wouldn't be roman hastitai/principes/triarii
- Since they're not italians, there wouldn't be allied hastitai/principes/triarii either

So what should happen? The Romans themselves in history seem to have done nothing until marian reforms (and not a direct result due to fast expansion)

Three examples to follow:

1.If they follow the greeks, they would have massive colonization and eventually being able to to recruit soldiers from roman colonists, but it should cost more $$$ and time than getting soldiers from rome.

2.Following the celts, they would move a lot of people of people and settle, establishing new homelands (it seems the galatians did so?)

3.Following the parthians, they would do absolutely nothing and maintain minimal control over the submitted regions. There would be nothing different until after many decades - and then the local tribes may begin to have imitation hastati and principes etc (the people in Hatra did mock parthian cataphracts).

Any ideas?

[florin80]

Or you could just follow the actual history instead of assuming. They went to Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, Greece, Macedonia, North Africa, Iberian Peninsula etc. All before the reforms. If by reforms we understand the armies supposedly retrained by Marius or in any case the armies he used to beat the Cimbri and Teutones.

[AqD]

Or you could just follow the actual history instead of assuming. They went to Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, Greece, Macedonia, North Africa, Iberian Peninsula etc. All before the reforms. If by reforms we understand the armies supposedly retrained by Marius or in any case the armies he used to beat the Cimbri and Teutones.

Yeah but in the game things go much faster even with the highest difficulty.

So, unless the reforms could be triggered when they expand beyond historical territory (territory before the marian reforms), I think it might be better to provide them some alternative government/recruitment system in conquered regions. Besides I have come to believe that the era in RTR isn't really suited for post-marian romans, since most of other factions died before it....

[despot_of_rhodes]

IIRC, it was Dyonysus of Hallicarnassus who mentioned, that Romans had about 700.000 troops to their desposition at the time Hannibal crossed the Alps with his elefants ( the numbers may be not very accurate and exaggerated, but the example should show, that Carthaginians never actually had a chance to defeat Romans in that war, at least on italian pennisulla, even with support from Carthage, as long Romans could count on their allys and their troops ). Roma itself was a metropolis counting about 1.000.000 citizens in the late republican/impirial timeframe ), i don´t think they ever needed more than that pool to recruit enough legions for any conquest they planed, as long the loot from the war could bring enough profit.
Marian Reforms actually shouldn´t happen in the timeframe really covered by RTR, since almost no one plays that long, and because at that time, there are only 3-4 superpowers, left in the game, wich makes the whole historicaly accuracy very questionable...

[AqD]

IIRC, it was Dyonysus of Hallicarnassus who mentioned, that Romans had about 700.000 troops to their desposition at the time Hannibal crossed the Alps with his elefants ( the numbers may be not very accurate and exaggerated, but the example should show, that Carthaginians never actually had a chance to defeat Romans in that war, at least on italian pennisulla, even with support from Carthage, as long Romans could count on their allys and their troops ). Roma itself was a metropolis counting about 1.000.000 citizens in the late republican/impirial timeframe ), i don´t think they ever needed more than that pool to recruit enough legions for any conquest they planed, as long the loot from the war could bring enough profit.

hmmm yeah, but how can their capability of fast replenishment be implemented in RTW?

What about some "military" port for supposedly-transporting armies from the sea? Sort like the ports in Caius' Crusades. The romans did use a lot of ships to send armies to greece and spain right?

[lelouchx99]

First of all is there an exact day of the Marian Refprm? Perhaps the amount of province / some sort of things that must be done in order to trigger the reform? :hmmm:

P.s. I've never gotten the Reform before

[Clearchus of Sparta]

I think EB has a system whereby the reforms are triggered after a set number of battles

[Caligula Caesar]

The Marian reforms were made by Marius (of course) in 107 BC. Rome held Italy, southern Gaul, Punic Africa, Spain and Greece at that time (I don't think they had gone into Asia Minor yet). I think the EB Marius script makes it happen after Rome holds 50 settlements. Perhaps we could do something similar, perhaps with Rome having to hold certain settlements (and be at war with the Germans perhaps).

[lelouchx99]

Oh I see. If the Marian Reform doesn't happens before 107BC or earlier . I believe most of us would conquer almost half of Europe.... Which would be really pointless to have it.

[dharos]

I know this probably goes more with the "how do we slow the game down" thread (or whatever it's called). But i've 2 ideas that may help:

If you want to keep some historical accuracy as to when the reforms happen, first turn the 4tpy script into a 2tpy script... what's the point of 4 turns? it would present problems though where half the troops at any given time would be either immobile or severely restricted in movement, but so what?

Second and perhaps most importantly, if you can make a script that causes AI armies that exceed a certain number of stacks or raw troop numbers disband, or target those that are not led by family members. This is assuming that the human player does not take advantage of this fact (unless the script would also disband human armies not led by a family member). I think this is not a bad idea since armies should be led by some kind of leader, not just a random "captain".

combined with more formidable rebel settlement garrisons, these ideas may help to slow down the game and allow marian reforms to happen closer to the actual date.

[lelouchx99]

True

I think the 2 years script would be more historical accurate* than the 4 years script...

[Quinn Inuit]

As I understand it from my own reading and the Guide to Conduct Becoming a True Roman, the Romans expanded pretty much like we do in the ExRM prior to the Reforms. Hastati, principes, and triarii were only recruited in Rome and Capua, with Italian allies providing equivalent troops after a long period of integration. Other than that, they recruited local/AOR units as auxilia.

Why do you need an alternative gov't system in newly-conquered areas? You can still recruit AOR troops there, and if you conquer enough provinces you can always trigger the reforms. If you're worried about the AI, I suppose you could give the Roman AI a +1 law bonus outside of Italy.

A military port? I'm not familiar with this.

If you want to recreate Rome's ability to rapidly recruit legions, you can create a unit in the EDU that uses the same model and dictionary entry as a normal legionaire, but is only recruitable in Rome and has a 0 turn recruitment. That'd be a neat trick, actually...

I think we can handle excessive AI army recruitment via upkeep--nothing is as self-correcting as upkeep. It's already a lot better than it used to be.

I like 4tpy because it more accurately portrays campaign seasons. Otherwise half the game is winter, which seems kind of odd.

Off-topic:
2000th post! 29th year! Woohoo!

[lelouchx99]

lol

[delos]

What actually triggers the reform in the game?

I'm on my first pass through - great MOD by the way - and the reform triggered in 234 BC. I had an ahistoric campaign with the conquest of Greece before setting foot in Iberia. Pesky Greeks wouldn't leave me alone for a minute so I went to teach them some manners and got carried away..... as you do

[Scutarii]

Huge City w/ highest level government building in Italy, but not Rome, to my memory. I've been holding them off in my campaign though, so I'm not totally sure..

[Quinn Inuit]

Welcome to the forum, Delos!

Scutarii is right about the trigger condition. I usually hold them off, too, unless I've just gotten sick of trying to keep my field armies balanced.

[delos]

Thanks for the replies and the welcome. This is a period of history that has always fascinated me and the Mod seems to capture the feel really well. - I was looking forward to raising some Allied Legions Next time I'll watch Capua's development with a bit more care.

[Quinn Inuit]

I'm glad you're enjoying this. Try the Greeks sometime, too. The colonization idea is pretty cool, I think, and don't forget to check out the new Greek trading colony AsOR. I love those, but we're going to have to phase out the super-heavy hoplites and replace them with companion-style cavalry when we transition those to a superfaction.