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  1. #1
    Bovril's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Misunderstood political figures

    This thread is about revising the way certain political figures or their views are seen. Give quotes or examples that demonstrate the innacuracy of the prevailing understanding of whichever political figure or figures you chose.




    Adam Smith:

    For me Adam Smith is the misunderstood political figure. The poster boy for capitalism was in fact a pre-capitalist utilitarian. Some quotes which demonstrate his distance from modern state capitalism and modern libertarianism are:

    "Servants, labourers, and workmen of different kinds make up the far greater part of every great political society. But what improves the circumstances of the greater part can never be regarded as an inconveniency to the whole. No society can surely be flourishing and happy of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable. It is but equity, besides, that they who feed, clothe, and lodge the whole body of the people, should have such a share of the produce of their own labour as to be themselves tolerably well fed, clothed, and lodged."

    "We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate… [When workers combine,] masters… never cease to call aloud for the assistance of the civil magistrate, and the rigorous execution of those laws which have been enacted with so much severity against the combinations of servants, labourers, and journeymen. "
    That's basically a description of class war!

    On corporations: "The directors of such companies, however, being the managers rather of other people's money than of their own, it cannot well be expected, that they should watch over it with the same anxious vigilance with which the partners in a private copartnery frequently watch over their own .... Negligence and profusion, therefore, must always prevail, more or less in the management of the affairs of such a company"

    "The proposal of any new law or regulation which comes from [businessmen], ought always to be listened to with great precaution, and ought never to be adopted till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men, whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public, who have generally an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public, and who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived and oppressed it."
    More class warfare.

    "All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind."
    So much for the glory of 'enlightened self interest'.

    "Consumption is the sole end and purpose of all production; and the interest of the producer ought to be attended to, only so far as it may be necessary for promoting that of the consumer."
    Trickle down economics is the opposite of Smithian economics.


    Anyway, add your own and discuss others' choices.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Misunderstood political figures

    Ronald Reagan. I simply don't understand why he has been so idealized. Sure, he did a few good things, like fighting the Bloc. (Please explain, Reaganites).
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    Bovril's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Misunderstood political figures

    Quote Originally Posted by rtully94 View Post
    Ronald Reagan. I simply don't understand why he has been so idealized. Sure, he did a few good things, like fighting the Bloc. (Please explain, Reaganites).
    I'm talking about figures whose views have been misrepresented, not people who you think were over/under rated.

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    Default Re: Misunderstood political figures

    I'd go for a lot of people. Most of them are misunderstood. Few if we start from the Twentieth century, we might missundeRstand a lot of people there.
    Chamberlain? Hitler? Churchil? Stalin?
    All of them were in a sense misunderstood. A lot of political figures are often misunderstood. I'd say nearlly all of them
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    Default Re: Misunderstood political figures

    Jimmy Carter.

    Here we go, just from Wiki:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Carter
    We live in a time of transition, an uneasy era which is likely to endure for the rest of this century. During the period we may be tempted to abandon some of the time-honored principles and commitments which have been proven during the difficult times of past generations. We must never yield to this temptation. Our American values are not luxuries, but necessities— not the salt in our bread, but the bread itself.
    A real good one, along with his whole "Crisis of Confidence" speech, was almost prophetic of the times America is facing today. He ran on CHANGE, but not HOPE... obviously when Reagan ran on "Morning in America" he was going to win. Carter was too pessimistic and causing the American people to feel *gasp* depressed. He knew they could not live within their means anymore, that America stopped being a nation that produced, that had a breadwinner. America was living on borrowed time and money.

    Human rights is the soul of our foreign policy, because human rights is the very soul of our sense of nationhood.
    Notice most all his foreign policies that were blunders were all because he was trying to prove that he too could be hawkish. He was the human rights president for a reason. Even CIA activity decline sharply during his years.

    A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity.
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    Last edited by Da Skinna; March 12, 2009 at 07:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Misunderstood political figures

    Sorry for the misunderstanding about misunderstood politicians.

    Okay, I would have to say Ralph Nader. To many, he is a joke, but he did a lot for our country in the field of consumer safety, etc.
    "In the name of God, stop a moment, cease your work, look around you. "
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    Default Re: Misunderstood political figures

    George Bush

    With all the Media bashing, he's the most underrated, misunderstood person of our time.
    Bush bashing is about the same as I remember Truman bashing. Truman was so hated, Ike would not enter The White House until the Trumans had left. Truman is quite respected today.Bush bashing will end once this round of immature, hate-filled, thumb suckers in the media and Congress finally go away.
    Last edited by Quadratus; March 12, 2009 at 08:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Misunderstood political figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Quadratus View Post
    George Bush

    With all the Media bashing, he's the most underrated, misunderstood person of our time.
    Bush bashing is about the same as I remember Truman bashing. Truman was so hated, Ike would not enter The White House until the Trumans had left. Truman is quite respected today.Bush bashing will end once this round of immature, hate-filled, thumb suckers in the media and Congress finally go away.
    I will actually second this. But I believe George Bush to be a good and honest man, it is that he just fell in with the wrong crowd and they peer pressured him to do things he wouldn't have otherwise wanted to given alternative information.
    But mark me well; Religion is my name;
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    Too often talked of, but too little known.

    -Jonathan Swift

    "There's only a few things I'd actually kill for: revenge, jewelry, Father O'Malley's weedwacker..."
    -Bender (Futurama) awesome

    Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal.
    -Immortal Technique

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    Default Re: Misunderstood political figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Quadratus View Post
    George Bush

    Bush bashing will end once this round of immature, hate-filled, thumb suckers in the media and Congress finally go away.
    No, it won't.

    Everything that has been attributed to Bush, or at least his administration, is accurate. I don't think he has been misrepresented or misunderstood at all. What has he done that was good? I'd really like to know where people with your opinion are coming from on this one.

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    Default Re: Misunderstood political figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardrada992 View Post
    No, it won't.

    Everything that has been attributed to Bush, or at least his administration, is accurate. I don't think he has been misrepresented or misunderstood at all. What has he done that was good? I'd really like to know where people with your opinion are coming from on this one.
    Yes it will...

    Like I said, low poll numbers don't mean , it's too soon to judge Bush, after all he got out of office 3 months ago.

    He's presidency and the policies he's put forwards will show later down the road.

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    Default Re: Misunderstood political figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Quadratus View Post
    Yes it will...

    Like I said, low poll numbers don't mean , it's too soon to judge Bush, after all he got out of office 3 months ago.

    He's presidency and the policies he's put forwards will show later down the road.

    Sorry if this is pushing the thread away from where it was meant to go, but I think this discussion is somewhat on topic, at least for now.

    Low poll numbers do mean something, especially in this case when they are based on actual bad things that were caused by the Bush Administration. It wasn't too soon to judge Bush 3 months after he took office, when he took us from being in the green financially back into massive debt. Not to mention destroying our reputation with other countries and creating the Patriot Act, a measure which undeniably goes against what Republicans (and especially Libertarians) held as a high ideal.

    So please, what are some of these policies that will later vindicate him and show that he has been misunderstood?

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    Default Re: Misunderstood political figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Quadratus View Post
    Yes it will...

    Like I said, low poll numbers don't mean , it's too soon to judge Bush, after all he got out of office 3 months ago.

    He's presidency and the policies he's put forwards will show later down the road.
    Funny, you were judging Obama as soon as he ENTERED office

    I think Stalin was rather misunderstood, he turned the backwards peasant state that was Russia into a Superpower.
    Last edited by Pious Agnost; March 13, 2009 at 05:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Misunderstood political figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Quadratus View Post
    George Bush

    With all the Media bashing, he's the most underrated, misunderstood person of our time.
    Bush bashing is about the same as I remember Truman bashing. Truman was so hated, Ike would not enter The White House until the Trumans had left. Truman is quite respected today.Bush bashing will end once this round of immature, hate-filled, thumb suckers in the media and Congress finally go away.
    I'm sure that the Afghanis and Iraqis wont stop bashing him. And I sure as hell wont.

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    Default Re: Misunderstood political figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Quadratus View Post
    George Bush

    With all the Media bashing, he's the most underrated, misunderstood person of our time.
    Bush bashing is about the same as I remember Truman bashing. Truman was so hated, Ike would not enter The White House until the Trumans had left. Truman is quite respected today.Bush bashing will end once this round of immature, hate-filled, thumb suckers in the media and Congress finally go away.
    Yep lets blame it all on Moby Dick

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    Default Re: Misunderstood political figures

    Everything that has been attributed to Bush, or at least his administration, is accurate.
    You mean he really did cause Katrina, went to war with Iraq just to steal their oil, and turned America into a dictatorship?

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    Default Re: Misunderstood political figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Crusader View Post
    You mean he really did cause Katrina, went to war with Iraq just to steal their oil, and turned America into a dictatorship?
    Katrina's disaster was due to local and state failure.

    The Iraq War is a much larger debate that should be in another thread.

    However, the Patriot Act is a clear violation of the 4th Amendment of the Constitution in terms of search and seizure of private property.

    Also, the torture policies largely lobbied by Dick Cheney to Bush, were in clear violation of the 8th amendment of the Constitution.

    These two offenses alone, are enough for impeachment and for a conviction for violating civil rights and abuse of executive authority. Along with the fact that he is technically able to indicted for human rights violations per international law, just because of the fact he was a President, he would have gotten his ass incarcerated for a lengthy sentence. This doesn't make him a dictator, but a very poor leader who made questionable and at times, criminal decisions.
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    Default Re: Misunderstood political figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Crusader View Post
    You mean he really did cause Katrina, went to war with Iraq just to steal their oil, and turned America into a dictatorship?
    How clever of you. Yes, Bush called Katrina down to destroy New Orleans, and then waited a few days before sending help.

    In terms of the war: Why did we go? Can you tell me that?

    And yes, the Patriot Act was a large step towards a dictatorship.

    So we've covered some of the bad things, which are real, but what about these good things I've heard about?

    All sarcasm aside, I'd really like to hear about some of these policies he's set out that will vindicate him in the future.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Misunderstood political figures

    This doesn't make him a dictator, but a very poor leader who made questionable and at times, criminal decisions.
    ...to protect the country, which is (or was) his #1 responsibility.

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    Default Re: Misunderstood political figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Crusader View Post
    ...to protect the country, which is (or was) his #1 responsibility.
    So it's ok to forsake your values? The end justifies the means?

    Hypocrite.
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    Default Re: Misunderstood political figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Alakasam View Post
    Funny, you were judging Obama as soon as he ENTERED office

    I think Stalin was rather misunderstood, he turned the backwards peasant state that was Russia into a Superpower.
    Yeah your right, because I disliked the way he was and was going to run the government.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberias View Post
    Yep lets blame it all on Moby Dick

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