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  1. #1

    Default Weapons Available to Weapons Used

    The story. Obviously a nutcase.

    SAMSON, Ala. — A gunman went on a shooting spree in two neighbouring south Alabama towns Tuesday, killing nine people before he shot himself at a metals plant, authorities said.

    Police are investigating at least four separate shootings, all believed to be done by one gunman, whose name was not released, the Alabama Department of Safety said in a statement.

    The shootings began late in the afternoon in Samson. The shooter killed five people in one home and one each in two other homes.

    The gunman also shot at a state trooper's car, striking the vehicle seven times and wounding the trooper with broken glass.

    He then killed someone at a Samson supply store and another person at a service station.

    Samson contractor Greg McCullough said he was pumping gas at the station when the gunman opened fire, killing a woman coming out of the service station and wounding Mr. McCullough in the shoulder and arm with bullet fragments that struck his truck and the pump.

    “I first thought it was somebody playing,” he said. He said the gunman roared into the parking lot and slammed on his brakes. Then he saw the rifle.

    He said the gunman fired and the rifle appeared to jam, then he “went back to firing.” Then he drove off.

    Mr. McCullough, a father of two, said he tried to help the woman who was shot and yelled for someone to call an ambulance.

    “I'm just in awe that something like this could take place. That someone could do such a thing. It's just shocking,” Mr. McCullough told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.

    Police pursued the gunman Reliable Metal Products just north of Geneva, about a dozen miles southeast of Samson, where he fired an estimated 30 rounds, the safety department said. One of the bullets hit Geneva Police Chief Frankie Lindsey, who was saved by his bullet proof vest.

    The statement says the gunman then went in the plant and shot himself. His name was not released.

    The gunman had worked at Reliable Metal, said state Rep. Warren Beck, a Republican whose district includes Geneva.

    “My secretary heard gunfire everywhere,” he said. “This is one of the most tragic events ever in Geneva County.”

    State Senator Harri Anne Smith said some of those killed in Samson were sitting outside.

    “He was just driving down the street shooting at people sitting on their porches,” she said. “A family was just sitting on the porch and they were shot.”

    The department of safety said state fire marshals are investigating the scene of a burned house in Coffee County where one body was found. The scene is believed to be involved in this series of incidents.

    Reliable Metal Products makes grills and vents for heating and AC systems, mainly for hotels. A call to a person who answered the phone at the plant said no one could talk about the shooting.

    The towns of Geneva and Samson are roughly 30 miles south of Fort Rucker, near the Florida border in southeast Alabama. Geneva's population is about 4,400 and Samson, 2,000.

    The governor's office is sending resources and state troopers are setting up a command post.
    But don't you think there's a correlation between guns being available and when guns are used? Or am I just a Communist?
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  2. #2
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
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    Default Re: Weapons Available to Weapons Used

    And there is a correlation between the availability of cars and drunk driving fatalities. Your point is what?
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  3. #3
    Zephyrus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Weapons Available to Weapons Used

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Skinna View Post
    The story. Obviously a nutcase.



    But don't you think there's a correlation between guns being available and when guns are used? Or am I just a Communist?
    It's rather obvious that this man simply could not control his urges to kill people. If he didn't have a gun. he'd use a knife or an ax, or w/e weapon would have sufficed for him to achieve his aims and gain some notoriety. And now hes famous for it. Gj, media.

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  4. #4
    Holger Danske's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Weapons Available to Weapons Used

    Had he used a knife he'd been a lot less likely to kill bloody nine people...

    @OP
    Yes, in the eye of Gun-nut Joe Alabama you are dangerously Red and very Unpatriotic!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Weapons Available to Weapons Used

    in germany there was just a school shooting 2 dead

    so tell me how are the gun laws in germany?
    Last edited by Chaigidel; March 11, 2009 at 07:06 AM.

  6. #6
    Jagdpanzer's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Weapons Available to Weapons Used

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaigidel View Post
    in germany there was just a school shooting 2 dead

    so tell me how are the gun laws in germany?
    I copied this from another forum:

    There are a few ways to get a permit to own guns in Germany:

    a) You can prove that you are in much higher danger than the rest of the society and need a gun for self-defense. IIRC, there are less than 20,000 carry permits in Germany, most of them probably in the hands of security services. Carry license = Waffenschein, "grey card"

    b1) You want to become kind of an expert witness and need the guns to gain the necessary knowledge.
    b2) You want to become a collector - difficult. You might get a permit for guns of value for cultural history. These permits cover a special "subject". I don't know much about this, but we have at least two collectors in our club, one collecting "handguns of the German police forces", the other collecting "German service rifles". AFAIK, you have to begin before WW1 and then collect your way until you reach contemporary guns. I doubt one would be granted a permit with the subject "handguns with polymer frames" or "semi-auto rifles in .223". Collector's license = Sammlerkarte, "red card"

    c) You become a hunter. Now, hunting is a very serious matter in Germany! Becoming a hunter in Germany in both time consuming and expensive. From what I hear from the hunters I know it takes about a year and costs a couple a thousand Euros.

    d) You become a sports shooter. That's probably the easiest and most convenient way. You have to prove:
    - A clean background, though I don't know how they do this in case of foreigners. But basically foreigners CAN get a license.
    - Your practical and theoretical knowledge regarding guns and gun-laws. It used to be something like course taking two to four evenings with a multiple-choice test and a practical exam showing you can safely handle a gun, point out different calibers, etc.
    - That you have been "regularly and successfully" practising for twelve months according to the rules of an approved shooting association.

    An SOP could be:
    - You find a club near you. There will be one, whereever you go, just have to look for them. There are more than 30 in greater Stuttgart e.g..
    - Shoot as a guest. So you can see if the club fits your interests. Some clubs concentrate on different disciplines/types of guns/ranges.
    - Become a member.
    - Shoot about twice a month for a year.
    - Apply for your license.

    There are two licenses for sports shooters. The "sports-shooters license" ("yellow card") for multiple-shot muzzle loaders (mostly revolvers), non-semi-auto rifles, single-shot shotguns (including over-unders and SxS), single-shot pistols. The "green card" for any other gun: semi-auto pistols, revolvers, semi-auto rifles and shotguns, pump-action shotguns.
    In both cases you have to prove your "need" for the guns. In case of the yellow card you only have to prove your need for the first entry in the card. In case of the green card you have to prove your need for every single gun.

    Ok, that's it - roughly.
    And if you're not completly confused by now you didn't pay enough attention.
    There are more rules regarding storage, transportation, handloading your own ammo, getting a license to buy black-powder for muzzle-loaders, ...
    Source: http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-125727.html


    It's not exactly clear what happened in Winneden, S-Germany but it seems that at least 13 people have been killed.(according to dutch news)
    Police say a gunman dressed in a black combat uniform opened fire at a high school in southern Germany this morning, killing at least 11 people and injuring others before fleeing the scene.
    The Deutsche Press-Agentur news agency said the suspected gunman, a 17-year-old former pupil from the school in the Stuttgart suburb of Winnenden, has been killed.
    The Bild newspaper reported that the gunman was shot by police marksmen in a shopping centre, in nearby Wendlingen.
    Police spokesman Klaus Hinderer said at least nine students were killed at Albertville high school . The gunman also killed at least one adult outside the building as he escaped.
    "He went into the school with a weapon and carried out a bloodbath," said the regional police chief, Erwin Hetger. "I've never seen anything like this in my life."
    The gunman entered the school at 9.30am (8.30am GMT) and opened fire at random before fleeing, police said. German media said nine of those killed were pupils, along with one adult. The school was evacuated after the incident.
    Police could not confirm media reports that the gunman was a former student at the school.
    According to Germany's Bild newspaper, the 17-year-old left the school two years ago. The paper reported that his parents had 18 weapons in their house. Armed police stormed the family' home and took his mother in for questioning, the paper added. The boy's father is "wealthy businessman" from a neighbouring area, it also said.
    About 1,000 children attend the school, in a suburb 12 miles (20km) north-east of Stuttgart.
    "We have to anticipate a death toll in double digits," said a spokeswoman for the Stuttgart authorities.
    German television said the gunman had fled towards the centre of Winnenden.

    Reuters reported that helicopters were circling above the town while rescue workers and firefighters were at the school. Eyewitnesses told German media of hearing shots and screaming. One pupil said she first thought it was a stupid joke. Then she saw her classmates jump out of windows, before she also fled the school.
    A police spokesperson told Bild that the gunman shot a passerby near the psychiatric clinic in Winnenden. A worker from the clinic told the paper: "I heard six or seven shots. I am not allowed to leave my post."
    Several school shootings have shocked Germany in recent years. In 2006, a masked man wearing explosives and brandishing rifles opened fire at a school in the western German town of Emsdetten, wounding at least 11 people before killing himself.
    In April 2002, Germany saw its worst school shooting when a gunman killed 16 people, before turning the gun on himself, at a high school in the eastern city of Erfurt.
    Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...chool-shooting

    Apparently the boys parents were gun collectors. The police found 18 guns when they raided their home.
    Last edited by Jagdpanzer; March 11, 2009 at 07:38 AM.

  7. #7
    Nietzsche's Avatar Too Human
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    Default Re: Weapons Available to Weapons Used

    Arguing that guns don't make it more convenient to kill is ludicrous. Guns were designed for the purpose of efficient killing. To say that a man on a rampage could kill as many with a knife or hatchet or axe is arguable, but it misses the point. While such a man could kill many people with a non-projectile weapon, he could not do it in a short period of time. He could not do it from a distance. He could not do it efficiently.

    That aside, to call him a "gun-nut" is applying a political spin to a personal tragedy. People will find ways to kill regardless. Because a few such tragedies occur in countries every year in no way casts a doubt on the ability of law abiding citizens to own weapons.

    Occasionally, the cost of freedom is lives. That will never change. My heart goes out to those families. My hope is that they like so many deluded victim's families of similar tragedies, don't also blame inanimate objects for horrible crimes. The man is the evil vehicle here, not the weapon.
    To be governed is to be watched, inspected, directed, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, and commanded, by creatures who have neither the right, wisdom, nor virtue to do so. To be governed is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, taxed, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, admonished, reformed, corrected, and punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted, and robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, abused, disarmed, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, and betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, and dishonored. -Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

  8. #8

    Default Re: Weapons Available to Weapons Used

    most mass murders in history have been committed by explosives not guns

  9. #9
    Holger Danske's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Weapons Available to Weapons Used

    In recent history, perhaps...

  10. #10

    Default Re: Weapons Available to Weapons Used

    no in history pretty much as long as we have had a choice between guns and explosives

    the most mass murders in history basically all occured in ww2
    dresden, hiroshima, nagasaki

  11. #11

    Default Re: Weapons Available to Weapons Used

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Skinna View Post
    The story. Obviously a nutcase.



    But don't you think there's a correlation between guns being available and when guns are used? Or am I just a Communist?
    your just a communist.

    Firearm murders are mostly drug related, and upto 80% of those used in a crime are illegal.

    remember , correlation does not mean causation...the principle of research statistics. Firearm proliferation really has nothing to do with the amount of gun deaths each year. You can't say "we now have 10x more guns in the country, so we expect 10x more deaths". If we eliminated gangs and the war on drugs, you can bet that our guncrime would drop probably 60-80%.

    violence is a much to difficult issue to be simply narrowed down to firearms.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Weapons Available to Weapons Used

    Quote Originally Posted by scheuch13 View Post
    your just a communist.

    Firearm murders are mostly drug related, and upto 80% of those used in a crime are illegal.

    remember , correlation does not mean causation...the principle of research statistics. Firearm proliferation really has nothing to do with the amount of gun deaths each year. You can't say "we now have 10x more guns in the country, so we expect 10x more deaths". If we eliminated gangs and the war on drugs, you can bet that our guncrime would drop probably 60-80%.

    violence is a much to difficult issue to be simply narrowed down to firearms.
    Well it's a good thing I wasn't narrowing down violence. But are you saying there's no correlation (the word which I used) between owning a gun and using one? It's not causation because owning a gun doesn't mean you will fire one, but correlation that you have a gun, you're more probable to use a gun for your crimes.
    But mark me well; Religion is my name;
    An angel once: but now a fury grown,
    Too often talked of, but too little known.

    -Jonathan Swift

    "There's only a few things I'd actually kill for: revenge, jewelry, Father O'Malley's weedwacker..."
    -Bender (Futurama) awesome

    Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal.
    -Immortal Technique

  13. #13

    Default Re: Weapons Available to Weapons Used

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Skinna View Post
    Well it's a good thing I wasn't narrowing down violence. But are you saying there's no correlation (the word which I used) between owning a gun and using one? It's not causation because owning a gun doesn't mean you will fire one, but correlation that you have a gun, you're more probable to use a gun for your crimes.
    if there is a coorelation it would likely be considered statistically insignificant because its so small. Simply put gun violence amongst gun owners is already so small in population as to make it insignificant. When you then narrow the parameters more to test for illegal arms, you see that that indeed there is a big coorelation between illegal arms and violence. So you could argue that possession of an illegal arms would show a strong coorelation to commit violence, but possession of an illegal are shows no statistical significance.

    So, if your breaking the law with an illegal gun in your possession chances are your a criminal and hense have bad intentions to begin with, but if you own a legal arm that your no more prone to violence than anybody else. Why? because most illegal arms are found on criminals and most gunviolence happens in large urban cities amongst gangs and involve drugs. You will find a much stronger coorelation between drugs and gun violence then you will in gunownership and violence. responsible gun owners screw the statistics against this coorelation so much to make it statistically insignificant. which is why you have to narrow your search parameters.

    this isnt the first time I've done this by the way This kind of thing is what I got my degree in.

  14. #14
    CtrlAltDe1337's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Weapons Available to Weapons Used

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Skinna View Post
    The story. Obviously a nutcase.



    But don't you think there's a correlation between guns being available and when guns are used? Or am I just a Communist?
    16 people died in Germany just the other day, so no I don't think the availability of guns has a huge influence. If anything, growing up around guns should make most people more responsible (not this guy tho). Just think though, if the other people had guns, they could have shot the killer and ended this with less fatalities.


  15. #15

    Default Re: Weapons Available to Weapons Used

    Quote Originally Posted by CtrlAltDe1337 View Post
    16 people died in Germany just the other day, so no I don't think the availability of guns has a huge influence. If anything, growing up around guns should make most people more responsible (not this guy tho). Just think though, if the other people had guns, they could have shot the killer and ended this with less fatalities.
    yup, in america, if your waiting for police to save your life in instances like this, then you could be in for a world of hurt.

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