Religions

[James the Red]

How exactly will religion work in this mod? Its much different in the far east than in the western world at the time.

I know of 5 religions in the mod.

~ Theravada Buddhism
~ Mahayana Buddhism
~ Vajrayana Buddhism
~ Tengriism
~ Daoxue

3 types of Buddhism
And Mongol "paganism"

But whats Daoxue?

And will there be any other religions?

[Marcion]

I guess that would be Daoism (Taoism), though that word means literally "students of Dao."

I don't know if religion was that radically different, although the steppe tribes tended to be mostly without "zeal," as we would understand it. So long as their subjects weren't rebellious, they didn't care who they worshipped, or how (as seen during the rule of the Golden Horde over Asia).

With the Chinese it is a bit more complex. There were instances of Buddhists in China being persecuted due to the leanings of the Confucian elite during the Song period, but this of course wasn't a continuous thing. After the Mongol invasion, I think there was a pretty massive conversion of the lower classes to Buddhism, which led to it becoming the majority religion.

And shouldn't Shintoism be added for Japan?

[Augustus Lucifer]

Daoxue is Confucianism, in the Neo-Confucian sense prescribed to China at the time of the Song. Islam is also included; it is not listed since the header section that is taken from is called "New Religions", and in respect to Medieval Vanilla it is not new. In addition to the aforementioned, Hindu and Daoism may be included as minority religions available to a couple factions.

I can't really elaborate on how religion will work in the mod, because myself and GED are still working out the kinks of a system I crafted to try and get it down to a reasonable amount of lines of code(it originally involved 2.2 million lines of code, it's down around 600,000 theoretically but we're looking into randomization possibilities to cut it down a lot farther).

With Shinto, it *could* be incorporated, but it had largely been incorporated into Japanese Buddhism. Religion in Japan was in fact an amalgamation of Confucian ideals, Buddhist dogma, and Shinto practice. They took the multitude of religions and made them conform to one another. Shinto, as it were, is more of a modern classification for the worship of the spirits. Like bushido, there was no Shinto doctrine, and a farmer might pray to the kami of the rain for a good harvest, while another might address the kami of the soil.

[Marcion]

From what I learned, the Confucian works were far more the concern of the educated elite in the major cities, while the vast majority of people, living in the countryside, practiced traditional polytheism. The way of the peasants is more or less the basis for Laozi's philosophical work, which is what is labeled Taoism today.

I would consider all indigenous Chinese beliefs as more or less the same thing, though looking at demographics, it would be more Taoist than Confucian.

[Yelü Dashi]

From what I learned, the Confucian works were far more the concern of the educated elite in the major cities, while the vast majority of people, living in the countryside, practiced traditional polytheism. The way of the peasants is more or less the basis for Laozi's philosophical work, which is what is labeled Taoism today.

This is true enough, we have debated about whether Neo-Confucianism should have be included in the mod. I have argued that difference with the Southern Song is that Daoxue became more than a elite practice; it formed a universal moral system and a powerful political ideology that sought to embrace all levels of society. Yes, those living in border regions might not be affected, but this can be represented in game. But the force of this new ideology/religion spread it far beyond the borders of the Middle Kingdom, even after the Song were destroyed. Therefore it should have a prominent place within AUH.

cheers.

[Hax]

I believe that the way Shinto was used in Japan wasn't until the rise of Nationalism in the late 19th century, so I don't know to what extent religion should be modded in, and whether it should be in the first place. I'm not sure on the rest of Asia though.

[Shadowcry]

Didn't by this time the three traditions of Buddhism, Confucianism and Daoxue essentially undergo syncritism with each other? Maybe you could rename them the three Jewels or three traditions representing the Chinese traditions which encompassed the spiritual ideology.

Maybe something similar could be done like making a building tree like the Lithuanian faction's pagan buildings with the three roots u can build. One for Daoxue, Confucianism, and Buddhism, depending on what benefits you want to have in your city.

[Yelü Dashi]

Just to reiterate: 'Daoxue' is not Daoism, it was the term to describe Neo-Confucianism.
It is my understanding that Daoism can be expressed either in religious 'Daojiao' or the philosophical school 'Daojia'. Whereas what we mean by Daoxue is Zhu Xi's 'Teaching of the Way', in other words the prevalent school of Neo-Confucian thought in the Southern Song during our era. It was an attempt at syncretism, but distinct Buddhist and Daoist monastic associations still flourished during our period and will be represented as well.

[Osceola]

Wait, if the Ghorids are in, what about Islam?

[Augustus Lucifer]

Wait, if the Ghorids are in, what about Islam?

It is.

Daoxue is Confucianism, in the Neo-Confucian sense prescribed to China at the time of the Song. Islam is also included; it is not listed since the header section that is taken from is called "New Religions", and in respect to Medieval Vanilla it is not new. In addition to the aforementioned, Hindu and Daoism may be included as minority religions available to a couple factions.

[Osceola]

... I'm just blind is all, really.

Legally blind.

[Bull]

How about using it as culture/naturalisation rather than religion??

Religion never had as big an impact on Asian geopolitics as in Europe or Mid-east. Few rebelled for religious reasons, and even fewer war erupted between countries of different religions. There was no Pope, no Caliph, and I am pretty sure (but not absolutely sure) there was no concept of Holy War such as Jihad or Crusade.

[Marcion]

How about using it as culture/naturalisation rather than religion??

Religion never had as big an impact on Asian geopolitics as in Europe or Mid-east. Few rebelled for religious reasons, and even fewer war erupted between countries of different religions. There was no Pope, no Caliph, and I am pretty sure (but not absolutely sure) there was no concept of Holy War such as Jihad or Crusade.

There was persecution of Buddhists in China during this period. And I think religion can mostly stand in for culture in this mod. China was Daoist with Mahayana minority, SE Asia was Theravada, Tibet was Vajrayana, and the steppe tribes had shamanistic practices. And I don't know what you could mean about wars not erupting between countries of different religions, it happened a lot.

[Hax]

Tibet was Vajrayana

Wasn't Vajrayana also present in Japan, which evolved into Shingon? I believe the Japanese word for Vajrayana was Mikkyo.

[RMSN NIKE]

There was persecution of Buddhists in China during this period. And I think religion can mostly stand in for culture in this mod. China was Daoist with Mahayana minority, SE Asia was Theravada, Tibet was Vajrayana, and the steppe tribes had shamanistic practices. And I don't know what you could mean about wars not erupting between countries of different religions, it happened a lot.

I think the previous poster meant to write is that 2 neighboring countries fought wars for religious reasons.

[virusscan123]

How about using it as culture/naturalisation rather than religion??

Religion never had as big an impact on Asian geopolitics as in Europe or Mid-east. Few rebelled for religious reasons, and even fewer war erupted between countries of different religions. There was no Pope, no Caliph, and I am pretty sure (but not absolutely sure) there was no concept of Holy War such as Jihad or Crusade.

No there is not any concept of "holy war" in the major east asian religions (referring to Buddhism, Daoism, Confucius-ism & probably shinto as well - not too sure about the rest); the prosecution of Buddhism during the Tong dynasty in China was mainly due to social reasons (many became monks just to not participate in social services, plus they get free offering of food as well). The evidence of that is out of all the Buddhist schools at that time in China, only Zen was left alone due to the fact that they do not believe in begging of food and had to farm for themselves.

If my memory serves me correctly there was never any conflict between any of the religions that turned into a full scale war between nations. The exception might be the persecution of Buddhism in Tibet around 800BC because the Emperor that time believed in Bon (the native religion of Tibet before Buddhism was introduced). An interesting note is that despite Tibetan Buddhism being fully Varjayana at that time, after the persecution a Mahayana monk helped its rebuild and hence accounts for the importance of both Mahayana & Varjayana practises in modern Tibetan Buddhism.

Anyways just want to say Hi to the forum, this is my first post (had been a lurker for some time now)
I must say this mod looks very promising! Good job!

I am Chinese and practise abit of both of Tibetan Buddhism & "Chinese" Buddhism, if the team needs any help with whatever I am more than happy to contribute!

[James the Red]

Can Animism be a religion, since various peoples were animists, like Taiwanese natives and Ainu peoples and the people of Ryukyu are if Im not mistaken.

[HIC SVNT LEONES]

What of Nestorian Christianity? If I remember correctly, did not several Mongol Tribes, Khara-Khitai and a few other groups in Asia support/allow that religion to Flourish in the east?

Also, will any ability to change state religion occur in the game?

[Augustus Lucifer]

What of Nestorian Christianity? If I remember correctly, did not several Mongol Tribes, Khara-Khitai and a few other groups in Asia support/allow that religion to Flourish in the east?

Also, will any ability to change state religion occur in the game?

If we were to add another religion, that would likely be the first option, followed by some form of shinto. We still have religion slots and aren't fully decided on those matters. It's planned that players will be able to change their state religion, but those scripts have not been written yet.

[HIC SVNT LEONES]

Neato. Makes me even more excited!