The American Dream

[Da Skinna]

I hear many things about America. As a Canadian we sometimes joke about being America's younger brother, USA being told by the UN "Okay, you can, but bring your little brother."

We are also said to be America's conscience. Where they fail, we must perk up.

I have heard many a thing about THE AMERICAN DREAM in particular. That, according to fabled comedian George Carlin, it "must be a dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it." I have heard from Bill Maher that it is more a fantasy... "because dreams can come true."

What is the American Dream? Consensus believes it is the ideal that working hard can reward much. Above all it is opportunity to make something of ourselves. That is why so many immigrants come to America.

However, cynicism would tell us that it simply isn't. That the Roaring Twenties wasn't so roaring for everyone. That while you can make great money, something like only 0.5% ever did. That the story of Andrew Carnegie was really just the story of Andrew Carnegie.

History tells us that there can be two sides to every success story, conventional wisdom can resound that behind every great success there is a great crime. Racism tells us that these Mexicans are nulling what was ever so great about this country.

Marketing tells us that the American Dream is the best ploy ever for producing productive citizens. America, to immigrants as well as some native sons and daughters, is the only country to convince its citizens that being poor is a sin. That working hard as a waiter, and remaining a waiter with waiter's wages, was a dishonor.

But there is hope.

While the greed of the top percent over the rest has produced a wide-spread cynicism and distaste, there is hope. From people like Bill Moyers, a humane and compassionate figure always trying to dissect just what being an American means in contemporary times, there is hope.

There is hope, and he is asking it.

What does the American Dream mean? What does it mean? What are our aspirations for America, the idea, the nation, the inspiration, and the superpower?

What does the American Dream mean to you?

[Running Nose]

"What does the American Dream mean to you?"

Titties! Big American titties! 4 of them!

[Darkside]

You've just described the basic premises for the continuation of the United States' captialist system. A system which does not benefit it's people, but benefits the corporations founded within it's laws. I dare say that what you describe as "cynicism" is simply reality as it has played out combined with inherent Human greed.

You are right to say that the United States has convinced it's residents to falsely understand that progress is ultimately scored upon the deeds of those few who have achieved what can be known as upper classmanship. Not, instead, upon making oneself better then who they were. To trade in the vice of greed for the virture of brotherhood. I will delve no further in this subject.

The United States needs a Caesar.

Someone to squash those who claim to represent the people when in reality they represent the industrial mechanisms which no longer are affililated with a country, but are so powerful as to grab their pride and proclaim themselves as important.

Odds are, that will not happen.

My country is within a decline. I have overcome the sickness I feel at the realization that so many hands can claim legitimate enterprise on such a precious but bloated ideal.


Earnestly, I say, let it burn.

[Pierre Antoine Noël Bruno]

A system which does not benefit it's people, but benefits the corporations founded within it's laws.

Remember that corporations are run by people for people -- just not the people that you sympathize with.

The system provides a way for individuals to work together in symbiotic trading relationships to better themselves. Some people are better at it than others.

There's nothing that says individuals can't all do well; individuals are just jerks.

[Gideon Goldgod]

Darkside, why the total negativity?

The American Dream is actually true, check this out.
An African immigrant and a white hippy woman have a kid. The dad leaves, the mom dies of cancer, the grandparents raise their half white/black grandson in an age of racism. You all know the story. That man's our president and he grew up in the statistics that would see him as a future prisoner, not a President.

Enough of the negativity already. If you do work hard you will do well. There is no lie in that statement. There is also no lie in this, you all have an equal start, if you screw it up THAT'S ON YOU, not your neighbor. We believe in INDIVIDUALISM here. Take care of your family and work hard. That's pretty much a duh.

[IrishHitman]

Said dream is no longer limited to America.
Thanks to a little cultural imperialism, most of the Western world now possesses the traits that the original "American dream" came from.

However, it has changed since WW2.
Entrepreneurial spirit is at an all-time low, as demonstrated by every CEO whinging to the government. The government's job is to protect the people not the CEOs....

I think "The Organization Man" describes where such entrepreneurial spirit disappeared to.

[k995]

Darkside, why the total negativity?

The American Dream is actually true, check this out.
An African immigrant and a white hippy woman have a kid. The dad leaves, the mom dies of cancer, the grandparents raise their half white/black grandson in an age of racism. You all know the story. That man's our president and he grew up in the statistics that would see him as a future prisoner, not a President.

WIch is of course twisting the reality.

The immigrant part lets people believe he was poor, while he was not (not all immigrants are dirt poor you know) he got a fine education in kenyia he then got in the "Airlift Africa project" a local project that send a small amount of students to the US and got to study in university of hawai and later harvard.

His mother was far from "a hippy" but an anthropologist in wich she has a Ph.D. His grandmother was vice president at the bank of hawai .

After she got divorced her mother remarried to an indonesian geologist.

His mother died when she was 52 at the time obama was 34 .

So no, sorry to burst your bubble but Obama didnt come from dirt poor background, he came from educated decent off people.

Enough of the negativity already. If you do work hard you will do well. There is no lie in that statement. There is also no lie in this, you all have an equal start, if you screw it up THAT'S ON YOU, not your neighbor. We believe in INDIVIDUALISM here. Take care of your family and work hard. That's pretty much a duh.

And thats BS, lots (if not most) of the people work hard and barely have anything to show for it. The american dream never existed and never will. Most likely its just as the topic startes said: a PR stunt and a way to placate people.

If you work hard and the situation is right you MIGHT do well.

And all have an equal start? LOL where do you get that idea?

[Gideon Goldgod]

(....Stuff about President Obama....)
And thats BS, lots (if not most) of the people work hard and barely have anything to show for it. The american dream never existed and never will. Most likely its just as the topic startes said: a PR stunt and a way to placate people.
If you work hard and the situation is right you MIGHT do well.
And all have an equal start? LOL where do you get that idea?

If you are a hard working individual and make bad decisions you will obviously have a harder time in life, whether you live in a free country or a fascist one.
We all do have an equal start, and we get way too many second chances (IMO) here in the USA. Our last three Presidents were drug users in the past for goodness sake. They obviously were forgiven for it.

So, are you just an angry pessimest or one of those people who says the USA is a corporatocracy? Because that's how you're coming off on this first time that I'm discussing with you.

[k995]

If you are a hard working individual and make bad decisions you will obviously have a harder time in life, whether you live in a free country or a fascist one.

Thats just a small part of wether you will succeed or not. Sometimes its bad luck and it has nothing to do how hard you work or what deceision you make.

We all do have an equal start, and we get way too many second chances (IMO) here in the USA.

How does an mexican immigrant in his 30's get the same chance as lets say bush jr born in wealthy family. They dont. Not even the son of that immigrant and bush's son get an equal start.

One will have everything for him the other against him.

Our last three Presidents were drug users in the past for goodness sake. They obviously were forgiven for it.

Bush clinton bush all ahve in comman that they came from quit rich family's, niet really the avg american. There druguse had nothing to do with this. I also cant see the link between smoking pot and being a good or bad president, US is much to stressed out over this all drug issue.

So, are you just an angry pessimest or one of those people who says the USA is a corporatocracy? Because that's how you're coming off on this first time that I'm discussing with you.

Angry? Nope

Pessimist? Not really a realist, wich to some is the same.

US a corporatocracy? I doubt that, altough coorporation do have there influence it isnt quit as severe as to say they run the country.

But this was about the american dream.

This fits right into that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gini_since_WWII.gif

Its a index that measures the division of wealth in a country.

0=everyone has as much as everyone
100=1person has it all.

As you can see the wealth in the US is devised quit unequal . And whats worse it has been going up for decades. While in lots of others non western countrys it has been going down.

This shows that the rich only get richer while the poor get poorer (compared to the overal USA wealth) Indirect it shows the USA dream of "work hard and you will be rewared" doesnt really pay of.

[Viking Prince]

How does an mexican immigrant in his 30's get the same chance as lets say bush jr born in wealthy family. They dont. Not even the son of that immigrant and bush's son get an equal start.

One will have everything for him the other against him.

Equality of opportunity is not the same as what you are arguing. The richest and the poorest can both learn to read, write, etc. How well you learn can be affected by resources, but also and most important by how well you study and learn.

This fits right into that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gini_since_WWII.gif

Its a index that measures the division of wealth in a country.

0=everyone has as much as everyone
100=1person has it all.

As you can see the wealth in the US is devised quit unequal . And whats worse it has been going up for decades. While in lots of others non western countrys it has been going down.

This shows that the rich only get richer while the poor get poorer (compared to the overal USA wealth) Indirect it shows the USA dream of "work hard and you will be rewared" doesnt really pay of.

Again the Gini shows outcomes and does not indicate equality of opportunity.

One reason for a Gini to rise has to do with rewarding efforts and not redistributiing based on need or heavily taxing the few to reward the many so to speak.

The American dream is to work well, be left alone -- heck just read my prior post. A big part of the dream is the individual has both control and capacity to do. We do not need to be billionaires to have the dream. The dream is not about stuff. A modest income in a modest home will do just fine for me.

btw -- gini for USA is actually pretty stable over the years and just a bit above .5. There are problems with using census data for income since there are several not accounted for savings and revenue streams to also fold into the calculation (housing appreciation, indirect employment benefits, and pension accruals being obvious ones). Beyond the scope of this forum to get into though. Suffice to say that it is not as bleak as you think from your source.

There is also a problem of comparing indxes from country to country due to measurement methods. There is also a continuity issue within most developing countries since changes in government mean changes in data collection usually with the intent to make comparisons with the prior regime impossible by intent.

Also -- the index is a relative distribution for each point in time. The in aggregate poor have indeed gotten richer over the years and there is mobility on an individual basis that is not measured by aggregation.
individual mobility is greater in the USA than in Europe. The index is not designed to show this.

There is also a problem with socialized economies. Distribution may be numerically fairer by measure, but if an individual values job security greater and another values pension, but another values cash compensation -- the freer economy will show a more unfair gini number due to individual choice differences with the census taker valuations. The socialized economy with one shoe fits all will appear fairer on paper but will have less satisfaction due to restrictions on playing off the choices.

Sorry for the rant, but I do know something about Gini.

[Viking Prince]

A place where the French thought a statue of Lady Liberty should stand and greet the world. A place where a small cabin by a lake is a royal palace. A place where a white picket fence can be somebody's dream and not also be your dream too. A place where we be by just being allowed to be ourselves. If I work hard and not bother you, my time is then my own. That is the American dream.

[IrishHitman]

A place where the French thought a statue of Lady Liberty should stand and greet the world. A place where a small cabin by a lake is a royal palace. Aplace where a white picket fence can be somebody's dream and not also be your dream too. A place where where we be by just being allowed to be ourselves. If I work hard and not bother you, my time is then my own. That is the American dream.

The French would disagree now, in all likelihood

[Gideon Goldgod]

A place where the French thought a statue of Lady Liberty should stand and greet the world. A place where a small cabin by a lake is a royal palace. Aplace where a white picket fence can be somebody's dream and not also be your dream too. A place where where we be by just being allowed to be ourselves. If I work hard and not bother you, my time is then my own. That is the American dream.

Very very nice. Is that all yours? (I mean no offense)

[Viking Prince]

Very very nice. Is that all yours? (I mean no offense)

Yes, of course.

[Gideon Goldgod]

Yes, of course.

You should think on becoming a speech writer then, it's very good, esp. for just being off the top of your head.

[Ahlerich]

for me the amercian dream is to start as a bodybuilder and become a rich corrupt influencial politician.

another thing that comes to mind is getting cancer without having to smoke
i blame the food

background of the joke is i lived in canada for several years and the anti smoking campaign is really working much better then in germany where i come from.
however i never heard of so many more cancer patients in canada then in germany. i dont know statistics so it might be subjective.

[Kiljan Arslan]

A place where the French thought a statue of Lady Liberty should stand and greet the world. A place where a small cabin by a lake is a royal palace. Aplace where a white picket fence can be somebody's dream and not also be your dream too. A place where where we be by just being allowed to be ourselves. If I work hard and not bother you, my time is then my own. That is the American dream.

Hear Hear Viking

and whoever advocated a Ceaser I think not that will be the day the republic dies.

[Dr. Croccer]

It's called the American Dream, not the American Reality.

/thread.

[Last Roman]

traditionally, the American dream is to work your way up from nothing, manage to afford a decent (but not decadent) lifestyle.

It's called the American Dream, not the American Reality.

you should tell that to my friends dad, who grew up dirt poor, worked hard to get to medical school and now makes almost a million as a research doctor at a university. I'm sure he'd be be more than willing to listen.

[Dr. Croccer]

traditionally, the American dream is to work your way up from nothing, manage to afford a decent (but not decadent) lifestyle.



you should tell that to my friends dad, who grew up dirt poor, worked hard to get to medical school and now makes almost a million as a research doctor at a university. I'm sure he'd be be more than willing to listen.

Nice. My dad was born into a poor family of 6 children that descended from coal miners. He had a basic education yet now is a Spanish high teacher at an international school in the Hague. My beef with this is that some say that it's uniquely American and that the millions of poor Americans who don't get out of their are disregarded.