Post-war diplomacy

[Razor]

I've been playing France for a while and I found a few things really awkward and gameplay killing.

Within about 5 turns Württemberg declared war on me for no apparent reason and I easily beat them and took their capital: game over for Württemberg.
Then about 5 turns later, Savoy declared war on me for no apparent reason. Again I trained an army, attacked, got ambushed and beaten first but retrained the army and sent it back in and voilá, took the capital: game over Savoy.
Then some 5-10 turns later the United Provinces declared war on (for good reasons), and I sent two full stack armies to the United Provinces and I'm currently besieging Amsterdam...


What I'm trying to tell is, that factions with just one province get wiped out the moment you win a siege and take over the capital. If you want to win a war, you have to wipe out the faction: it's all or nothing. There's no diplomacy whatsoever for the losing faction to turn to diplomacy, admit defeat/surrender and stay alive while paying reparations to the winning faction.

I've been thinking about this for quite some time and it got me thinking in vicious circles with no end because it involves so many factors in reality. So far I've come with a simple solution to this.



When you are at war these diplomacy options pop up when opening negotiations with your opponent you're at war with:

1) offer armistice: (opponent: accept/decline)

- armistice for a period of x turns (breaking armistice will make your prestige drop)

2) demand surrender: (opponent: accept/decline)

- demand region: x (cannot demand core region of a faction)
- offer region: x (cannot offer core region of your faction)
- demand payments: x
- become protector

3) offer surrender: (opponent: accept/decline)

- demand region: x (cannot demand core region of a faction)
- offer region: x (cannot offer core region of your faction)
- offer payments: x

4) offer white peace: (opponent: accept/decline)

(peace with no winner and loser, no win and no loss for either side; return to status quo ante bellum)


Capturing faction capital:

If a faction loses its capital then it will surrender unconditionally. It has to accept any demand made by the conquerors, without bargaining. Whether it will make them less popular (or better said more hated) or not towards the losing faction depends on their demands. The capital is of high importance because that's where your government resides.


Annexing regions:

With an unconditional surrender you can easily take over colonies of a defeated nation/faction and if possible you can even annex all of their territory, erasing the faction from the map.
In principle all regions can be annexed after you have captured the enemy capital.
However due to nationality conflicts and the rise and consciousness of nation states and national pride the following factions and their core regions can't be annexed and can only be made protectorates at best.

Great Britain: England
France: France
Spain: Spain
Austria: Austria
Prussia: Brandenburg
Ottoman Empire: Anatolia
Sweden: Sweden

In addition there should be a penalty in diplomatic relations towards all factions for destroying a recognized faction.


Anyway these are just ideas that still need fine-tuning and adjustments, because there's always some sort of exception to be found to this rule. However I'm convinced it should bypass absurd situations such as the United Provinces owning France and Spain and largely cover the post-war diplomacy of the early modern era and it's still of use for the present.


Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, complaints... Anything?

[Magic Man]

Ya'll need to get out of the MTW2 mindset.

''So i took their only settlement, and now they're destroyed, how lame is that?!''

You can fight a war, win it, and get a peace settlement without taking their provinces.

[Razor]

Ya'll need to get out of the MTW2 mindset.

''So i took their only settlement, and now they're destroyed, how lame is that?!''

You can fight a war, win it, and get a peace settlement without taking their provinces.

...and was that because they pleaded not to destroy them or was it you who felt sorry for them? I know I can get a peace settlement, but only if I want to and feel sorry for them being wiped out. Not because they ask me to and is favorable to me...

Btw, you also lose one element in it: losing and winning a war, not just battles. Surrendering equals losing a war equals population losing faith in the government, whereas winning a war would raise the popularity of the government.

[GaMMwl]

You can give the loosing site the option to become a protectorate....By this youll be getting 50% of their income, I think, as long as they remain under your power.

The system with fewer regions doesnt really work, Ill always just go straight for the capital instead of raiding the smaller towns...But perhaps that depends on your intentions of the invasion, maybe some people prefer getting into wars of attrition that last for decades

And isnt it extremely hard to obtain a peace agreement after a war that leaves both nations with all their pre-war regions??

[Jet Jaguar]

I've been playing France for a while and I found a few things really awkward and gameplay killing.

Within about 5 turns Württemberg declared war on me for no apparent reason and I easily beat them and took their capital: game over for Württemberg.
Then about 5 turns later, Savoy declared war on me for no apparent reason. Again I trained an army, attacked, got ambushed and beaten first but retrained the army and sent it back in and voilá, took the capital: game over Savoy.
Then some 5-10 turns later the United Provinces declared war on (for good reasons), and I sent two full stack armies to the United Provinces and I'm currently besieging Amsterdam...


What I'm trying to tell is, that factions with just one province get wiped out the moment you win a siege and take over the capital. If you want to win a war, you have to wipe out the faction: it's all or nothing. There's no diplomacy whatsoever for the losing faction to turn to diplomacy, admit defeat/surrender and stay alive while paying reparations to the winning faction.

I've been thinking about this for quite some time and it got me thinking in vicious circles with no end because it involves so many factors in reality. So far I've come with a simple solution to this.



When you are at war these diplomacy options pop up when opening negotiations with your opponent you're at war with:

1) offer armistice: (opponent: accept/decline)

- armistice for a period of x turns (breaking armistice will make your prestige drop)

2) demand surrender: (opponent: accept/decline)

- demand region: x (cannot demand core region of a faction)
- offer region: x (cannot offer core region of your faction)
- demand payments: x
- become protector

3) offer surrender: (opponent: accept/decline)

- demand region: x (cannot demand core region of a faction)
- offer region: x (cannot offer core region of your faction)
- offer payments: x

4) offer white peace: (opponent: accept/decline)

(peace with no winner and loser, no win and no loss for either side; return to status quo ante bellum)


Capturing faction capital:

If a faction loses its capital then it will surrender unconditionally. It has to accept any demand made by the conquerors, without bargaining. Whether it will make them less popular (or better said more hated) or not towards the losing faction depends on their demands. The capital is of high importance because that's where your government resides.


Annexing regions:

With an unconditional surrender you can easily take over colonies of a defeated nation/faction and if possible you can even annex all of their territory, erasing the faction from the map.
In principle all regions can be annexed after you have captured the enemy capital.
However due to nationality conflicts and the rise and consciousness of nation states and national pride the following factions and their core regions can't be annexed and can only be made protectorates at best.

Great Britain: England
France: France
Spain: Spain
Austria: Austria
Prussia: Brandenburg
Ottoman Empire: Anatolia
Sweden: Sweden

In addition there should be a penalty in diplomatic relations towards all factions for destroying a recognized faction.


Anyway these are just ideas that still need fine-tuning and adjustments, because there's always some sort of exception to be found to this rule. However I'm convinced it should bypass absurd situations such as the United Provinces owning France and Spain and largely cover the post-war diplomacy of the early modern era and it's still of use for the present.


Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, complaints... Anything?

I'm still waiting for my game to arrive; but is it possible to capture the capital of a major nation, but offer it back to them as part of the peace deal that ends the war? If so, I'll play with a "house" rule which allows me to demand all sorts things from the enemy who's capital I've captured, without the actual ability to demand the capital province itself.

Would this work? Can I occupy Paris and demand all sorts of things from the French in return for giving it back to them? I hope so.

[upsettingshorts]

I'm still waiting for my game to arrive; but is it possible to capture the capital of a major nation, but offer it back to them as part of the peace deal that ends the war? If so, I'll play with a "house" rule which allows me to demand all sorts things from the enemy who's capital I've captured, without the actual ability to demand the capital province itself.

Would this work? Can I occupy Paris and demand all sorts of things from the French in return for giving it back to them? I hope so.

As long as the French have other territories, yes. What OP is talking about are the minor powers with only 1 territory, who are defeated once their capitol is taken.

What I like to do for countries I do not wish to occupy, is the following:
1) Give the territory to a friendly rival to act as a buffer, perhaps (and most often) I build up my protectorates this way. For example, as Great Britain, I made Morocco a Protectorate, then conquered the Barbary States, giving each one to the Moroccans. Then, when I went to war with the Ottomans, the Moroccans were actually a significant ally.
2) Build up the territory a bit, then deliberately mismanage it until they revolt, then endorse/ally with the eventual rebels. As Great Britain I had no interest in keeping Canada after securing the colonies, so I allowed the Quebecois to revolt and take the capitol. Then I gave them 1-2 regions in modern day Canada in return for Protectorship/peace/trade.

So the fact the game lets you "invent" minor nations by doing #2 is a good balance with the problem of wiping out minor nations pretty easily.

[Alkarin]

As long as the French have other territories, yes. What OP is talking about are the minor powers with only 1 territory, who are defeated once their capitol is taken.

What I like to do for countries I do not wish to occupy, is the following:
1) Give the territory to a friendly rival to act as a buffer, perhaps (and most often) I build up my protectorates this way. For example, as Great Britain, I made Morocco a Protectorate, then conquered the Barbary States, giving each one to the Moroccans. Then, when I went to war with the Ottomans, the Moroccans were actually a significant ally.
2) Build up the territory a bit, then deliberately mismanage it until they revolt, then endorse/ally with the eventual rebels. As Great Britain I had no interest in keeping Canada after securing the colonies, so I allowed the Quebecois to revolt and take the capitol. Then I gave them 1-2 regions in modern day Canada in return for Protectorship/peace/trade.

So the fact the game lets you "invent" minor nations by doing #2 is a good balance with the problem of wiping out minor nations pretty easily.

should have a 'liberate nation' feature like in hearts of iron. if you owned certain territories you could grant it independence and they will become your protectorate

[Keline]

I'm still waiting for my game to arrive; but is it possible to capture the capital of a major nation, but offer it back to them as part of the peace deal that ends the war? If so, I'll play with a "house" rule which allows me to demand all sorts things from the enemy who's capital I've captured, without the actual ability to demand the capital province itself.

Would this work? Can I occupy Paris and demand all sorts of things from the French in return for giving it back to them? I hope so.

Yes but that would require the enemy to have more than just 1 region. Especially in Central Europe are quite a few minor states with just their main region and nothing else.

Also I once conquered Paris and the remaining four French regions became independant, so France died that turn.

The problem with TW Diplomacy is that the AI in no way compares your power to their own. A "feeble" nation would hardly deny 5 rounds of region access so I can move my five fullstack armies through it to fight another war when threatened. But they do, so I just declare war and conquer them even when I had no intend of doing so.

ETW diplomacy needs to be improved before it can be expanded.

[The Donz]

[...]
The problem with TW Diplomacy is that the AI in no way compares your power to their own. A "feeble" nation would hardly deny 5 rounds of region access so I can move my five fullstack armies through it to fight another war when threatened. But they do, so I just declare war and conquer them even when I had no intend of doing so.

ETW diplomacy needs to be improved before it can be expanded.

They will give you access.... for money, as allways.
Thats one of the AI's Diplomacy Problems I think. They will do almost everything. But most times only for money. Even if they are wiped out basically and must live in constant fear of an invasion, they wont give you anything exept for money.

[Baka_yarou_elRey]

I've had a weird, and very annoying, incident with Prussia playing as GB. For no apparent reason Prussia declared war on 13 Colonies. They didn't attack one of their fleets, raid any of their trade routes, or lay siege to any of their towns, they just randomly declared war. So, as 13C under my protection I broke my alliance with Prussia to defend them. All that really happened between GB and Prussia was some trade routes were raided but that's it. I figured once I had managed to join the 13C with GB I'd call a ceasefire with Prussia and set up trade again. However, no matter what I offer them they just won't accept it even though there's nothing for them to be at war with me for.

[Demon Deimos]

unless that was frances last place which would mean they were destroyed but if they still have other places then ya. you can barter paris back for alot of cash

[Haggan]

Well, I slightly agree, especially with the things that is ripped off from EUIII. But still, this is more of an action rts then a diplomacy-strategy game

[Arn]

Well, I slightly agree, especially with the things that is ripped off from EUIII. But still, this is more of an action rts then a diplomacy-strategy game

And that's the problem... ETW needs better diplomacy options.

[Haggan]

And that's the problem... ETW needs better diplomacy options.

I wouldn't say it NEEDS it, but it would certainly make this game something really special. Imagine a co-op project by paradox and CA. Oh my God I just came.

[macke]

Razor, I believe you are on to something there. I totally agree with you on many of your ideas. What Empire lacks, like all of it's predecessors is the fact that an AI can't admit defeat.

For example. I am playing as Sweden and I am at war with Russia, Poland and Denmark (yep my own GNW :-)) and I have conquered Norway and Denmark. In real life Denmark would be crying for peace. I have actually offered them to give back Denmark (core province) but they utterly refuse. They can't ever win against me now since they are only holding on to Iceland. So why not agree to peace and lick their wounds and perhaps attack me in a later state when I am weak? Perhaps it has someting to do with them having to allies currently at war with me but still. They are risking to be wiped out.

Hopefully, since this game is going to be the most moddable game ever in the TW series, we will be able to mod the diplomacy.

CA has made many changes on the diplomacy system, adding alot more factors on how the AI makes desicions, but they have failed in the most important part. The AI totally lacks the comprehension of admitting to defeat.

[Alkarin]

OP is full of win. i agree with every point. more diplomacy!

[Kip]

Cool ideas, but how exactly can it even be implemented? Just try some other options... instead of immediately rushing in and sacking Amsterdam, trash their minor towns and cities, capture some of their colonies, etc. Maybe this will convince them to surrender. If it doesn't, retreat, allow them to repair their buildings, and then trash them again. ETW isn't meant to be a province-gulping fest, but you have to allow the game mechanics and AI some room... ultimately, you can conquer Europe. But there's a reason nobody did in actual history, so just play with that mindset.

The AI will *never* be perfect. The day we see an AI faction behave how the player itself behaves will be the last we will ever see, because our toasters will have killed us already. Just go with what we have for now, and maybe modders can create some AI tendencies that will perform a bit better.

[Clayton Gold]

Very EU3 like....:hmmm:

There are some good ideas for negotiating a peace there, but I like the TW system whereby a faction is destroyed when all of it's lands are conquered.

If I want to play statesman, I will load up EU3.

[Sol Invictus]

The more that TW mimics EU on the Strategic mechanics the better.

[notger]

The more that TW mimics EU on the Strategic mechanics the better.

Exactly!