The Hungarian Hussar – A Magyar Huszár

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

We all originated from the Scythians. Save that, there are always the Twelve Tribes of Israel!

[snipa]

Snipa you know Serbian language!......againe!

gusar or gusari =pirate,pirates!

help me but pirate are not robbers?
u wanna say me that the hugarian king named his elite military light cavalries from pirate and robbers?

i wait for your evidence that serbs used military light cavalries before 1403 and their name was hussar...

because you said: After the word "Gusar"went to the "Husar" in the XIV century! -> its not enough!

gusar (band of robbers) != hussar (military light cavalries in hungarian army)

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Tried and true tactic in Snipa's mind: Don't bring any sources and keep repeating what you want others to believe and you can't fail.

Seriously though i'd like to see some sources to what you have to say. I can't really see your side when you don't provide anything.

boring to debate with rumenians who always use their dreams without evidence!

[Carpathian Wolf]

boring to debate with rumenians who always use their dreams without evidence!

Dream this:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hussars

gg

[Dromikaites]

Magyars are genetically related to Serbs but not Romanians. Magyars were by no means few in numbers and were most definitely not absorbed by natives. Here’s why: the initial population of Magyars was at least 250000 and upwards of 500000.

Well, a group of geneticists which include several Italian university professors and two PhD holders from the Department of Human Genetics and Teratology, National Institute of Hygiene, Budapest, Hungary published an article in the European Journal of Human Genetics about the initial population of Magyars. Here's the conclusion:

Magyars imposed their language on Hungarians but seem not to have affected their genetic structure.[...]
These results suggest that the influence of Magyars on the Hungarian gene pool has been very low through both females and males and the Hungarian language could be an example of cultural dominance.

The above mentioned genetic study indicates the following happened in the 9th century: a relatively small group of warriors took advantage of the relative power vacuum in the Carpathian Basin, defeated the small local duchies one by one and established themselves as the ruling class over the much larger local population.

Here's another genetic study, this time done by a Hungarian-only team, confirming the Magyars were so few compared to the population they conquered that almost no traces of them can be found among the modern Hungarians:

The Hungarian language belongs to the Finno-Ugric branch of the Uralic family, but Hungarian speakers have been living in Central Europe for more than 1000 years, surrounded by speakers of unrelated Indo-European languages.

In order to study the continuity in maternal lineage between ancient and modern Hungarian populations, polymorphisms in the HVSI and protein coding regions of mitochondrial DNA sequences of 27 ancient samples (10th-11th centuries), 101 modern Hungarian, and 76 modern Hungarian-speaking Sekler samples from Transylvania were analyzed. The data were compared with sequences derived from 57 European and Asian populations, including Finno-Ugric populations, and statistical analyses were performed to investigate their genetic relationships.

Only 2 of 27 ancient Hungarian samples are unambiguously Asian: the rest belong to one of the western Eurasian haplogroups, but some Asian affinities, and the genetic effect of populations who came into contact with ancient Hungarians during their migrations are seen.

Strong differences appear when the ancient Hungarian samples are analyzed according to apparent social status, as judged by grave goods. Commoners show a predominance of mtDNA haplotypes and haplogroups (H, R, T), common in west Eurasia, while high-status individuals, presumably conquering Hungarians, show a more heterogeneous haplogroup distribution, with haplogroups (N1a, X) which are present at very low frequencies in modern worldwide populations and are absent in recent Hungarian and Sekler populations.

Modern Hungarian-speaking populations seem to be specifically European. Our findings demonstrate that significant genetic differences exist between the ancient and recent Hungarian-speaking populations, and no genetic continuity is seen.

Since the modern day Hungarians are mainly the descendants of the locals found in the Carpathian basin by the Magyar conquerors the other issue in your post is you claim the Modern Hungarians to be more related to the Serbs than to their "arch-rivals" the Romanians. Well, "an image tells more than 1000 words" (say the Chinese). How about two images, with the genetic structure of the Romanians, Hungarians and Serbs side by side?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[IMG]http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil
/Haplogroups_In_Europe.jpg[/IMG]

and here's the second genetic map of Europe:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So to put the things into the right context:
1) The Magyars who invaded the Carpathian basin in the 9th century were a handful of individuals who ended up assimilated by the much larger local populations they had conquered. The genetically closest relatives of the modern-day Hungarians are the Romanians (ah, the irony!), the Serbs and the Slovaks, in that descending order;
2) The small number of Magyars who led the tribal federation which conquered the Carpathian basin in the 9th century were originally from Western Siberia. They are the ones who passed the Hungarian language to the nowadays Hungarians through cultural dominance, not through numbers.
3) The Avars and the Huns were Turkic peoples (a 6th century Byzantine author states the Avars and the Huns speak the same language) while the Scythians and Sarmatians were Iranian peoples. Neither the Scythians nor the Huns were Ugric, therefore neither was related to the Magyars.
4) The federation of tribes led by the Magyars might have had Iranian and Turkic elements but the whole federation was comprised by a handful of people. Therefore to claim the Hungarians are the descendants of the Scythians is quite a big stretch.

By the time the Hussars were created (16th century), the 9th century conquerors' genes had long since disappeared in the much larger mass of Romanians and Serbs.

[ivan_the_terrible]

Sarmatism was a cultural phenomenon. I don't think any main line historians consider the Poles to be Sarmatians.

Very true. I would also add that Sarmatism was a cultural phenomenon among the Polish nobility, partly serving as a way of setting themselves apart from (higher than) the Slavic serfs.

[Odovacar]

I can't believe we are disputing a mere name...
The truth is that nobody can prove the exact origin of the hussar word, it can be gusari, it can be "húsz" (twenty) or something else.

No one can call into question -and I think no one does-that the fame attached to the name hussar was deserved, and this fame was rightly claimed by hungarian hussars, who carried the use of hussars into Europe.

Other nations had their own hero units too. Like the russian cossack, rightly compared to the hussar in horsemanship, but different, or the originally slavic "croat" riders or the finnish hakkapellita.

As for the hungarian heritage, yes, we are related to most peoples in the Carpathian basin, especially slavs and somewhat to germans, and so on. The scyithian origin is a myth.
The alanian is not, as both the original magyar tribal alliance and the later hungarians had alanic/iranian elements (the jasz) In Hungary till the late 18th century the jasz language was spoken.

[Romano-Dacis]

I cannot honestly believe I am debating with people who consider Sarmatism some scientifically-backed fact. Polish nobles dress up in awkward lamellar armor and suddenly we have a new theory on origins...
It's as Ivan_the_terrible says: a theory designed to set the nobility appart from the common Slavs.

[4th Regiment]

snipa, I suggest you to calm down. I do not know why it hurts your national pride that gusars originated in Serbia, primarily as a counter to Turkish light horse tactics. After fall of central Serbian lands in 1459. they continued to operate from southern Hungary (present day north Serbia), under command of Serbian nobles who had estates in southern Hungary and even held titles of Despots of Serbia, under patronage of Hungarian kings. They were very successful in riding Ottoman territory (numerous raiding campaigns it will be too much to post here).

So, they originated as Serbian unit, but they earned world fame as Hungarian hussars. Why is that so bad for your national pride?

It is very well established fact, included in DBA board games fanatics looong before PC games were there. You are welcomed to do some research. That is why gusars are included as Serbian unit in all MTW mods with Serbia as a faction.

[HorseArcher]

Well done Hun Birodalom!

On the behalf of the origin, the argument of where the word deprived is different, but if it's Serbian, than ask the question why there aren't Serbian "Gussars" today or why there isn't a well known tradition in Serbia regarding the "Gussars", unless of course I am wrong and somehow I missed something.

By the some correction, regarding the uniforms.

Matyas Corvinus Huszar uniform and equipment:

(15th century)



Heavier equipped, more of a transition between heavy cavalry to light cavalry.

Similarities in the uniform/equipment to the Conquesting Magyars:

Arpad (896AD)



.....

16th Century:


17th Century:



18th Century:





19th Century:



20th Century:
WWI



WWII.
Az 1. Huszárhadosztály (1st Hussar squadron)



Hussars across the sea, Hussars in foreign lands:

English Hussar: (England 19th Century)



French Hussar (France, 18th Century)


Russian Hussar (Russia 18th Century)


American Hussar (United States of America)

Black Hussars
(San Francisco Hussars)
http://militarymuseum.org/BlackHussars.html

Richmond Hussars (USA)
http://www.78thtroop.com/878thEN/history.htm

Edgefield Hussars:



Punishment for desertion



Huszar Charge:



Hussars used in the most recent times (2006 Oct 23rd, protest against the government) Indeed and might be shocking for other Hungarians to learn that this was a Hussar Regiment used by the Goverment for crowd dispersion, I know this because I have talked to one of them.




Note: I didn't cover the Polish Hussars, because they also have very extensive history.

[Baron Vlad Felix]

help me but pirate are not robbers?
u wanna say me that the hugarian king named his elite military light cavalries from pirate and robbers?

i wait for your evidence that serbs used military light cavalries before 1403 and their name was hussar...

because you said: After the word "Gusar"went to the "Husar" in the XIV century! -> its not enough!

gusar (band of robbers) != hussar (military light cavalries in hungarian army)

As far as Gusari-Husari(Hussars),Husari-Hussars us the answer to the Turkish spahi and akindi.Becouse Serbia fell they were left in Hungary and served Matthias Corvinus1458-1490.He is see ability Husars-Hussars (Gusari-the pirates) and established the Hungarian unit of tipe.Initially they fought in small bands indeed, but were reorganised into a strong, highly-trained and motivated formation.
Husari were structured into smaller groups and banderije who served on the border with the Ottoman Empire.

in Hungarian countries were 10000-12000 Serb mercenaries soldiers. They are usually waged a war in the armed forces of the Serbian and Hungarian nobility, and served as soldiers in the rivers ( "nasadisti" or "šajkaši") as a light cavalry (Husari). In 1481st the three-month salary of light horsemen was 10 gold pieces, and twenty years later Serbian light horsemen received their 8-10 gold pieces a year. So the influx of Serbian warriors to mass migration and the entry of the Serbs in the military class cost mercenar warriors in the area of the Danube, at the place of permanent military conflict.

Fall of the Serbian despotos Hungarian kingdom lost the buffer zone to the Turks and had taken a direct contact with the Turkish border. Hungarian King Matthias Corvinus immediately is the need to move see prominent Serbian patricians, experienced in the war with the Turks, in the border areas in the south of the Kingdom. In 1464th in Hungary by the few powerful figures, who in the coming decades, influenced the history of "small war" at the border. Son Gregory slepog Brankovic, a grandson Despota Djurdja, Vuk Grgurević (in epskoj poetry dragon Ognjen Vuk) got possession of Srem (kupinovo, Irig, Berkasovo) and Banatu (Bečkerek). Jakšić brothers, Stefan and Dmitar, sons of Duke Jakše, arrived from Pomoravlje, got the possession in Pomorišju, situated in Nadlaku. Milos Belmužević, the last Duke Despota Đurađ Brankovića to reap commander and international city, has received a property in the back Potisju.

After Matthias Corvinus death Husari- Hussars were spread across Central Europe.
The hussars predecessors appeared in Poland at around the turn of the 16th Century, they were Serbian and Hungarian mercenaries known as 'raclowice' or 'usaria' (usars).
"raclowice" - from Hungarian Raci for the Serbs, see Raška,Rašani..

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Researched and Written by Margaret Odrowaz-Sypniewska, B.F.A. SOURCES: Brzezinski, Richard. Polish Armies 1569-1600. (volume 1) #184 in the Osprey Men-at-Arms Series. London: Osprey Publishing, 6, 16. Brzezinski, Richard. Polish Winged Hussar 1576-1775. Warrior Series. Oxford: Osprey Publishing Ltd., 2006. Hollins, David. Hungarian Hussars 1756-1815. Osprey Warrior Series. Oxford: Osprey Publishing, Ltd., 2003. Klucina, Petr. (Illustrations by Pavol Pevny) Armor: From Ancient To Modern Times. Reprinted by New York: Barnes & Noble Books, 1992, (by permission of Slovart Publishing Ltd, Batislava). Ostrowski, Jan K., et al. Art in Poland: Land of the Winged Horsemen 1572-1764. Baltimore: Art Services International, 1999. Wasilkowska, Anna. The Winged Horsemen. Warsaw: Wydawnictwo Interpress, 1998. Zamoyski, Adam. The Polish Way. New York: Hippocrene Books, 1996

Serbian light cavalries period of IX to XII century represented soldiers shielded light leather or armored, and often armored by metal flake.
During the period of XII-XV century in Serbia have started to introduce modern shields with the West.

some pic from ljubičevskih festival

[Romano-Dacis]

I do not understand why people try to prove hussars are an "ancient Magyar military tradition." It's ridiculous because the military system of the Hungarian kingdom was completely reorganized in the mid-13th century. Banderia were introduced, the Anjou dynasty brought in Western feudal military traditions and suddenly there was a a huge restructuring of the entire army. By the time of Janos Hunyadi/Iancu de Hunedoara the entire army was roughly the same as those in Germany or France. Horse archery became increasingly rare and increasingly poorer in quality (by the 15th century we read from many sources that the Turks had a qualitative edge over the Hungarians in this regard). The Hungarian hussar created during Matthias's reign was not a continuation of Hungarian military tradition, it was not even a revitalization of Hungarian military tradition. The Hungarian hussar was a new military concept which was probably taken from the Serbs but refined in a true military unit in Hungary, which created a new military tradition in Western armies.

[KaerMorhen]

Very true. I would also add that Sarmatism was a cultural phenomenon among the Polish nobility, partly serving as a way of setting themselves apart from (higher than) the Slavic serfs.

it was a cultural phenomenon among the whole PLC nobility not only ours.
The Hussars/Husaria came to us from Serbia via Hungary so I'm curious why so many romanians are involved in this thread especially if Hussars have nothing to do with them:hmmm:

[Romano-Dacis]

it was a cultural phenomenon among the whole PLC nobility not only ours.
The Hussars/Husaria came to us from Serbia via Hungary so I'm curious why so many romanians are involved in this thread especially if Hussars have nothing to do with them:hmmm:

First you say we'e too nationalistic, now we're not nationalistic enough apperantly.
Anyway Vlad is a Serbian citizen and I'm posting because I am researching Balkan military development.
BTW, Romania (like every other country in Europe) had hussars called hansari. What's interesting is that like gusari the hansari were paid in loot, not with a salary or land. More evidence for a Serbian origin?

[KaerMorhen]

First you say we'e too nationalistic, now we're not nationalistic enough apperantly.
Anyway Vlad is a Serbian citizen and I'm posting because I am researching Balkan military development.
BTW, Romania (like every other country in Europe) had hussars called hansari. What's interesting is that like gusari the hansari were paid in loot, not with a salary or land. More evidence for a Serbian origin?

don't get me wrong but I don't care about Hussars orgins, the only thing I care is their historical impact for Polish military and their development in time untill they become Winged. I have read some books and articles about them before they entered into Polish warfare but none of them mentioned Romanian(Vallahia/Moldavia) hussars but that's not important.
I don't know who was first to have them Serbs or Magyars - I failed to believe it is important but obviously I can be wrong.

[Dromikaites]

I have read some books and articles about them before they entered into Polish warfare but none of them mentioned Romanian(Vallahia/Moldavia) hussars but that's not important.

The hansari (Wallachian/Moldavian version of the Serbian hussars) were marginal to the Romanian armies during the Middle Ages. The military doctrine of those two countries favored another type of soldier which would be later called "dragoon" in the Western armies. From 17th century onwards in the Western armies the term dragoon meant a soldier who mainly fights on foot but moves on horseback.

The Wallachians and Moldavians preferred to fight mainly on foot because the terrain was more suited for infantry operations and the military tradition favored ambushes over open battles. However unlike the dragoons, those soldiers were also competent light cavalry because they constantly had to thwart the Tatar or Akinci (light Ottoman cavalry) raids. The lack of large open spaces (the territory of Romania was covered mainly by forests until mid 19th century) made less stringent the need for a specialized light cavalry and therefore the hansari were never trained in large numbers.

[Odovacar]

No, their origin is not important.
I couldn't care less if they had come from Virginia or Australia

But that the bosevikh gov. used hussars against the people..that cries for blood, HorseArcher!

[Baron Vlad Felix]

No, their origin is not important.
I couldn't care less if they had come from Virginia or Australia

[Carpathian Wolf]

it was a cultural phenomenon among the whole PLC nobility not only ours.
The Hussars/Husaria came to us from Serbia via Hungary so I'm curious why so many romanians are involved in this thread especially if Hussars have nothing to do with them:hmmm:

What Romanians can't post in this thread in such large numbers?

We did have hansari.

[KaerMorhen]

We did have hansari.

The hansari (Wallachian/Moldavian version of the Serbian hussars) were marginal to the Romanian armies during the Middle Ages. The military doctrine of those two countries favored another type of soldier which would be later called "dragoon" in the Western armies. From 17th century onwards in the Western armies the term dragoon meant a soldier who mainly fights on foot but moves on horseback.

ok, but as I said my concern is Polish Husaria not foreign orgin of her

[Hun Birodalom]

it was a cultural phenomenon among the whole PLC nobility not only ours.
The Hussars/Husaria came to us from Serbia via Hungary so I'm curious why so many romanians are involved in this thread especially if Hussars have nothing to do with them:hmmm:

Because they like to tell everyone what their "true" history is.
I apologize for the comment about Sarmatism, I am not as familiar with the topic as I should be and I was just simply citing a source. The source could be wrong and I shouldn't have been so rude.

First you say we'e too nationalistic, now we're not nationalistic enough apperantly.
Anyway Vlad is a Serbian citizen and I'm posting because I am researching Balkan military development.
BTW, Romania (like every other country in Europe) had hussars called hansari. What's interesting is that like gusari the hansari were paid in loot, not with a salary or land. More evidence for a Serbian origin?

Well Hungarian Hussars were most certainly not paid in loot. Regular service was paid from the treasury and officers were given land as well as noble status if they weren't already. You can read in my article that they were not allowed to rob citizens in any circumstance. I guess your "gusars" actually went to Romania not Hungary.

@Dromikaites

The articles you presented are all minor studies with small numbers of specimens. They also don’t take into consideration the Y chromosome haplotypes EU18 and EU19. Please read the genetic study included in my new thread for information on EU18 and EU19.