Pikemen

[Conquistatore]

A topic I wanted to discuss with you this evening is the Pikemen unit.

Are they ever useful?

I find not.
They are easily shot down by ranged infantry and move too slow to be able to catch up or pin down cavalry so what is the point of them?

They usually get slaughtered in a melee fight with other infantry and usually rout pretty quickly.

Are they in the game just for some unit variation or history or some other reason?

Thoughts and opinions?

[AlphaDelta]

Do your units have bayonets from turn 0? If yes, then pikes will not be of much use, unless they're really cheap of course.

In M2 pike units were cheat units when used in sieges, so you could try to use them like that.

Cheers

[clibinarium]

Your analysis is pretty much correct. In game they form whole units, which they rarely did in reality (apart from perhaps units of militia or rebels who could not get their has on firearms). In reality they formed a proportion of a firearm equipped battalion, so the musketeers would be up front when firepower was needed, the pikemen when horse attacked or threatened. It was a 17th Century practice dying out at the start of the 18th, though it hung on in Sweden and Russia; Swedish units did use the pike offensively, but the jury's still out on whether it added much over bayonets.
So I think the pike is portrayed incorrectly in terms of its deployment, but strangely it is portrayed correctly in the sense that pike-only formations have the problems you described.

[General Baldrick]

Im just using my Pike units as garrison troops until i replace them.

[Agent Provocateur]

Your analysis is pretty much correct. In game they form whole units, which they rarely did in reality (apart from perhaps units of militia or rebels who could not get their has on firearms). In reality they formed a proportion of a firearm equipped battalion, so the musketeers would be up front when firepower was needed, the pikemen when horse attacked or threatened. It was a 17th Century practice dying out at the start of the 18th, though it hung on in Sweden and Russia; Swedish units did use the pike offensively, but the jury's still out on whether it added much over bayonets.
So I think the pike is portrayed incorrectly in terms of its deployment, but strangely it is portrayed correctly in the sense that pike-only formations have the problems you described.

That may be the case for Britain but isn't for others. Sweden continued to employ pikemen as part of their affection for aggressive tactics (although an accountant probably had something to do with this tactical policy...). Britain sent tens of thousands of pikes to Portugal and Spain at the beginning of the Peninsular war. Pikemen in-game are cheap relatively throw-away units which reflect pretty well their use in reality at this time.

Getting the game to use multi weapon unit might be a bit difficult.

[clibinarium]

I was trying to find an illustration of pikes from this period, but its not easy. I did find this wargames unit so that will have to do, you just have to imagine the numbers multiplied up! Its a Swiss regiment in French service from the late 1690s, early 1700s; you can see its in transition; its musketeers have plug bayonets fixed, and their are a small proportion of pikemen standing at the back. They would come forward when horse attacked, or the battalion would form a square, with them providing a hedgehog effect. The most apparent thing is the proportion of muskets to pikes is very much in favour of the musket.



EDIT;
Credit where credit's due, this pic is from the League of Augsburg site. http://www.leagueofaugsburg.com/
See here for more turn of the 17th/18th Century pics; nice eye candy

[General Baldrick]

From http://www.answers.com/topic/pikemen

"Early in the [17th] century there were perhaps two pikemen to one musketeer. This ratio was reversed by the time the English civil wars broke out in 1642 (see British civil wars), and by 1691 English regiments that left Ireland for Flanders had only fourteen pikemen per company, less than a quarter of their strength. The 17th-century soldier Sir James Turner had already complained that there was ‘an universal contempt for the pike’. Although the pike was effectively rendered redundant by the invention of the bayonet which, in effect, made every musketeer his own pikeman, it lingered on well into the 18th century, and Saxe retained a lasting affection for it."

[Ataraxie]

Pikeman are Brilliant for taking as a melee flanker pre-bayonet.
Get 'em around the back of the foe, and let him have it that way.
Not half as effective as the mighty panzercavalry of course, but it looks good.

[Ishoss]

A topic I wanted to discuss with you this evening is the Pikemen unit.

Are they ever useful?

I find not.
They are easily shot down by ranged infantry and move too slow to be able to catch up or pin down cavalry so what is the point of them?

They usually get slaughtered in a melee fight with other infantry and usually rout pretty quickly.

Are they in the game just for some unit variation or history or some other reason?

Thoughts and opinions?

Your thoughts and opinions are the same as European Generals of this era, with the exception of the Swedish and Russians.

[snuggans]

pikemen are great for disbanding. : )

[Conquistatore]

pikemen are great for disbanding. : )

That's a good point, why train them in the first place then? A show of force?

Anyone else noticed that Pikemen do not use their pikes, but rather swords? Even with fighting cavalry. Some of these flaws appear to be on purpose.

Yes I have seen this and it is very odd. I think Pikemen are somewhat broken at the moment. Hopefully CA will be able to fix them and make them a bit more useful.

I was trying to find an illustration of pikes from this period, but its not easy. I did find this wargames unit so that will have to do, you just have to imagine the numbers multiplied up! Its a Swiss regiment in French service from the late 1690s, early 1700s; you can see its in transition; its musketeers have plug bayonets fixed, and their are a small proportion of pikemen standing at the back. They would come forward when horse attacked, or the battalion would form a square, with them providing a hedgehog effect. The most apparent thing is the proportion of muskets to pikes is very much in favour of the musket.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

EDIT;
Credit where credit's due, this pic is from the League of Augsburg site. http://www.leagueofaugsburg.com/
See here for more turn of the 17th/18th Century pics; nice eye candy

Very interesting history there. I can see how Pikemen would have been useful at this time. However I don't think CA implemented them very well. If they are placed the front to protect the ranged infantry they will just get shot down by the enemy. Also, your own ranged infantry does a pretty good job of dealing with cavalry if they are at half strength or so..

It's a shame really, I was excited to hear the Pikemen would be in the game (Medieval 2 nostalgia) but now I discover they aren't very useful. :hmmm:

[snuggans]

That's a good point, why train them in the first place then? A show of force?

well for some reason, you start off with pikemen as Britain. they seem to be tagging along with militia in some of the starting regions.
i can see them being useful there, pointing a forest of pikes through a narrow street/fort entrance.

[Carpe Veritas]

Found a use for them! If stationed directly behind a thin line of Line infantry they stop cavalry charges on the centre (a permanent hazard of thin lining troops) dead. If that doesn't appeal just disband them

[Sigurd Fåvnesbane]

The officers that lead the regiments used pikes in the early 18th century.

But, yeah! I began crying when my pikes meeled some cav with sabres and holding the pikes upwards with the other hand. And the cannot move in formations, so they must always be on defence.

[ne'er-do-well]

But, yeah! I began crying when my pikes meeled some cav with sabres and holding the pikes upwards with the other hand. And the cannot move in formations, so they must always be on defence.

Actually they can move in their special formation though its buggy and I'm not sure its intentional. If you double click a few meters in front of them sometimes they start to march forward pikes held forward/maintaning a tight formation. You also gain access to the wheel, run etc forward buttons. From then on you can give them more move orders but they're still likely to go back to their normal formation. When you give them an attack order it appears they always break formation though.

A little off topic but someone mentioned it further up. Anyone know what problems there are with multi-weapon units e.g. combined pike/musket unit. Dont think I've seen them in any total war game. Last night when my pikemen were in combat some were using pike while others were using sabers so its obviously something the engine can do. Thanks

[Conquistatore]

Actually they can move in their special formation though its buggy and I'm not sure its intentional. If you double click a few meters in front of them sometimes they start to march forward pikes held forward/maintaning a tight formation. You also gain access to the wheel, run etc forward buttons. From then on you can give them more move orders but they're still likely to go back to their normal formation. When you give them an attack order it appears they always break formation though.

As I said, they appear to be broken. I didn't know that they couldn't move when they were in the pike wall formation though, that is a bit stupid.

[Panchito]

Anyone else noticed that Pikemen do not use their pikes, but rather swords? Even with fighting cavalry. Some of these flaws appear to be on purpose.

[Yojimbo]

Anyone else noticed that Pikemen do not use their pikes, but rather swords? Even with fighting cavalry. Some of these flaws appear to be on purpose.

Yes its like m2tw again why have they still not grasped the concent that PIKEMEN USE PIKES thats why theh are called pikemen.

[Arksa]

I did once find them pretty great when defending a town.

Held off cavarly excellently.

[Yoda Twin]

I like the animation of them holding thye pike and it not dissapearing like in m2tw, they might be using swords because there not in pike wall?