Suggestions and requests

[CaesarVincens]

I heard you would like to use 1 hp system and tweak missile range. How about this solution.

I think sticking with a one HP system is best right now. If nothing else, it's another way to test an alternate system.

- Level of firpower/range(with is reduce range as many people think archer is too overpower)
-->javelin(damage 8-9/range 40)ap
-->heavy javelin(damage 10-13/range 30)ap
-->pilum(damage 12-15/range 25)ap
-->sling(damage 5/range 90)ap
-->elite sling(damage 7/range 90)ap
-->kestros(damage 7/range 90)ap
-->generic foot archer-west(damage 7 /range 80)(skirmish)
-->elite foot archer-west(damage 8/range 100)(bombard)
-->generic foot archer-east(damage 8/range 100)(bombard)
-->Indian longbow(damage 9/range 120)(bombard)
-->elite foot archer-east(Composite bow)(damage 10/range 120)(bombard)
-->generic HA(damage 8/range 80)(aimed and fire)
-->elite HA(damage 9/range 100)(aimed and fire)

That looks pretty good.

Here is about missile accuracy. Now its up to tactic they use with their weapons.
- Set projectile accuracy(fewer mean more accurated, 0 = always hit)(need test)
-->generic bombard-type archer = 0.15(elite west and most of east foot archer)
-->generic skirmish-type archer = 0.1(generic west with shorter range and easier to aim)
-->horse-archer = 0.1(aim before fire but how much you would expect from horseback)
-->hunter/famous archer = 0.05(snipe and fire!)
-->javelin = 0.1
-->heavy javelin = 0.1
-->pilum = 0.1
-->slinger = 0.15
-->kestros = 0.05
-->Crossbow bolt = 0.05

Again, this looks good.

- Archer will stronger in the east of Mediterranean and even more if for each step further east.
- Increase quiver size of
-->all foot archers from 25 to 30 in the west and 40 in the east
-->all slinger from 30 to 35
-->kestros from 25 to 30

All of these idea are for making eastern archer stronger than the west and down its power to made them not overpower like other people expected.

That is what we want, and that is what we will need to test most.

Here is other ideas which would easy to try if you like to.
- All units will have 1 HP except elephants, Berserkers, Spartan Royal Guard(without additional HP would made them not worth 30 turn recruitment), and general(to prevent quick dying and allow battlescarred traits to workable.).
- All HA will get higher penalty in scrub area(which also include and settlement area).
- All Barbarian archer will have high forest terrain bonus but All archer and cavalry from east(except india which seem normal in forest) beyond Mediterranean will have huge penalty in it.
- All heavy infantry and cavalry will subject more to heat and sand than lighter units especially if they come from the west.
- Cavalry charging distance lowered to decrease the chance of cavalry charge fail.
- Most of generic/civics/heavy infantry/nonhorse-culture heavy cavalry units will be "hardy" while most of light infantry/light cavalry/horse-culture heavy cavalry/ultra-training elite will be "very_hardy". Base on SunTzu, light units use for fight Maneuveur warfare and could play its roles.
- All other barbarian units without special formation should have loose formations as an option.
- Increase defense skill drastically(+10 to based value) for both infantry and cavalry, making flanking attacks more effective for infantry.
- increace shield attribute of each shield to here.
--> small round 5
--> medium round 7
--> large round 9(-1 defense skill)
--> Thureos 8
--> long shield 10(-2 defense skill)
--> scutum/oval 9
--> square scutum 12(-4 defense skill)

Would you like to test and use some of ideas which I post here (which selection from "Battle system of Post-Marian Project" thread)? If you willingly to use them, please tell me about outcome of implements the feature ideas too.

I think all of these ideas are good, except giving the general two hps. That can cause problems because the AI will then use the general as a "elite" and won't protect them enough. The stupid AI generals charging a phalanx in vanilla? Caused by the general's guard having two hps.

In other news, I've finally got real progression on the next version of Extended Cultures (either 3.1.10 or 3.2.0 depending on if I get the traits to work, which I should.). So expect that in the (somewhat) near future.

[Suppanut]

So general's hp and bodyguard's hp is the different thing?

[Zarax]

I suggest to test the shields after the rest of the system as otherwise we won't be able to evaluate the effect properly.
I actually like EB's thinking, in which they gave defence bias to units depending on armour, cultural background and training.

Basically unarmoured barbarians got higher defence than other levies while armoured units hot a small penalty to represent encoumberance

Elites compensated this with training.

[CaesarVincens]

Zarax, would you mind setting up a new system like that?

Here is the latest version of EDU I've got working. If you want to test it out, drop on to a XGM install, because it uses models and textures not released in XC yet.

[Suppanut]

I will spend some time to think into formulation and modifier of defense skill a bit, it will base roughly on units' type and class.

[CaesarVincens]

Thanks, Suppanut.

[Suppanut]

defense skill calculation
Base value = 10

Unit Class & Culture modifier; Based on unit class&culture list for PMP, +2 for each training level
Summery; Culture modifier
--> carthage Anti-Marius = -2
--> carthage Post-Marius = +0
--> rome Anti-Marius = +2
--> rome Post-Marius = +2
--> partial civilized = +2
--> barbarian = +4
--> greek = +2
--> egypt cleruch = +2
--> egypt machimoi = +0
--> eastern low end = -2
--> eastern high end = +0
--> horse faction cavalry = +4
--> horse faction Infantry = +0

Summery; Class modifier
Citizen group
lvl 0; garrison = +2
lvl 1; levy = +4
lvl 2; militia = +4
lvl 3; semi-professional = +6
lvl 4; professional = +8
lvl 5; assault = +8
lvl 5; elite = +10
Noble group
lvl 4; minor nobility = +6
lvl 5; noble = +6
Hero group
lvl 3; heroic = +8 or +10
lvl 5; champion = +10

Unit role Modifier
--> Non-Melee Range = -4
--> Melee Range = +2
--> Skirmish = -2
--> Special Role = +0
--> Melee = +4
--> Line = +6

Formation
--> Tight = -2
--> loose = +0

Mount and Machine
--> Horse = +4
--> Cataphrect Horse = -2
--> Camel = +2
--> Cataphrect Camel = +0
--> Elephant = +12
--> Cataphrect Elephant = +8
--> Indian Elephant = +16
--> Cataphrect Indian Elephant = +12
--> Siege = -8

Main Weapon Modifier
Huge Bow = -4
Bow = -2
Pike = -4
Spear = -2
dagger = -2
Axe&Club = +0
Mace = +2
Falx = +2
Sword = +4

Handed Weapon Modifier
1-handed = +0
2-handed = +2

Shield Modifier
No Shield = -1
Small Shield = +2
medium Shield = +0
Large Shield = -1
Huge Shield = -3

Example
Levy/Militia Phalangite
Carthage = 10(base)-2(carthage AM)+4(levy)+6(line)-2(tight formation)-4(pike)+2(2-handed)+0(medium shield)= 13 defense skill
Greek = 10(base)+2(greek)+4(militia)+6(line)-2(tight formation)-4(pike)+2(2-handed)+0(medium shield)=18 defense skill

Barbarian Swordmen/Axemen/Falxmen
Swordsmen = 10(base)+4(barbarian)+4(militia)+4(melee)+0(loose formation)+4(sword)+0(1-handed)+0(medium shield)= 26 defense skill
Chosen Swordsmen = 10(base)+4(barbarian)+6(minor noble)+4(melee)+0(loose formation)+4(sword)+0(1-handed)-1(large shield)= 27 defense skill

Axemen = 10(base)+4(barbarian)+4(militia)+4(melee)+0(loose formation)+0(axe)+0(1-handed)+0(medium shield)= 22 defense skill
Heavy Axemen = 10(base)+4(barbarian)+6(minor noble)+4(melee)+0(loose formation)+0(axe)+2(2-handed)-1(no shield)= 25 defense skill
Chosen Axemen = 10(base)+4(barbarian)+6(minor noble)+4(melee)+0(loose formation)+0(axe)+0(1-handed)+0(medium shield)= 24 defense skill

Falxmen = 10(base)+4(barbarian)+4(militia)+4(melee)+0(loose formation)+2(falx)+2(2-handed)-1(no shield)= 25 defense skill
Noble Falxmen = 10(base)+4(barbarian)+6(minor noble)+4(melee)+0(loose formation)+2(falx)+2(2-handed)-1(no shield)= 27 defense skill

Legion
Legionary Cohort = 10(base)+2(rome PM)+6(semi-pro)+4(melee)-2(tight formation)+4(sword)+0(1-handed)-3(huge shield)= 21 defense skill
Urban Cohort = 10(base)+2(rome PM)+8(pro)+4(melee)-2(tight formation)+4(sword)+0(1-handed)-3(huge shield)= 23 defense skill
Legionary First Cohort = 10(base)+2(rome PM)+8(pro)+4(melee)-2(tight formation)+4(sword)+0(1-handed)-3(huge shield)= 23 defense skill
Praetorian Cohort = 10(base)+2(rome PM)+10(elite)+4(melee)-2(tight formation)+4(sword)+0(1-handed)-3(huge shield)= 25 defense skill

Range
Skirmisher
carthage = 10(base)-2(carthage AM)+4(levy)-2(Skirmish)+0(loose formation)-2(spear)+0(1-handed)-1(large shield)= 7 defense skill
roman = 10(base)+2(rome AM)+4(levy)-2(Skirmish)+0(loose formation)-2(dagger)+0(1-handed)+2(small shield)= 14 defense skill
spain = 10(base)+2(partial civilized)+4(levy)-2(Skirmish)+0(loose formation)+4(sword)+0(1-handed)+2(small shield)= 20 defense skill
celt = 10(base)+4(barbarian)+4(levy)-2(Skirmish)+0(loose formation)-2(spear)+0(1-handed)-1(large shield)= 13 defense skill
germans = 10(base)+4(barbarian)+4(levy)-2(Skirmish)+0(loose formation)+0(club)+0(1-handed)-1(large shield)= 15 defense skill
thrace = 10(base)+4(barbarian)+4(levy)-2(Skirmish)+0(loose formation)+2(falx)+0(1-handed)-1(large shield)= 13 defense skill
greek = 10(base)+2(greek)+4(levy)-2(Skirmish)+0(loose formation)-2(spear)+0(1-handed)+2(small shield)= 14 defense skill
egypt = 10(base)+0(machimoi)+4(levy)-2(Skirmish)+0(loose formation)-2(spear)+0(1-handed)+2(small shield)= 12 defense skill
eastern = 10(base)-2(eastern low end)+4(levy)-2(Skirmish)+0(loose formation)-2(spear)+0(1-handed)+2(small shield)= 10 defense skill

Slinger
roman = 10(base)+2(rome AM)+4(militia)-4(non-melee range)+0(loose formation)-2(dagger)+0(1-handed)+2(small shield)= 12 defense skill
spain = 10(base)+2(partial civilized)+4(militia)-4(non-melee range)+0(loose formation)-2(dagger)+0(1-handed)+2(small shield)= 12 defense skill
barbarian = 10(base)+4(barbarian)+4(militia)-4(non-melee range)+0(loose formation)-2(dagger)+0(1-handed)+2(small shield)= 14 defense skill
greek = 10(base)+2(greek)+4(militia)-4(non-melee range)+0(loose formation)-2(dagger)+0(1-handed)+2(small shield)= 12 defense skill
egypt = 10(base)+0(machimoi)+4(militia)-4(non-melee range)+0(loose formation)-2(dagger)+0(1-handed)+2(small shield)= 10 defense skill
eastern = 10(base)-2(eastern low end)+4(militia)-4(non-melee range)+0(loose formation)-2(dagger)+0(1-handed)+2(small shield)= 8 defense skill

Archer
carthage = 10(base)-2(carthage AM)+6(semi-pro)-4(non-melee range)+0(loose formation)-2(Bow)+0(1-handed)-1(no shield)= 7 defense skill
roman = 10(base)+2(rome AM)+6(semi-pro)-4(non-melee range)+0(loose formation)-2(Bow)+0(1-handed)-1(no shield)= 11 defense skill
spain = 10(base)+2(partial civilized)+6(semi-pro)-4(non-melee range)+0(loose formation)-2(Bow)+0(1-handed)-1(no shield)= 11 defense skill
barbarian = 10(base)+4(barbarian)+6(semi-pro)-4(non-melee range)+0(loose formation)-2(Bow)+0(1-handed)-1(no shield)= 13 defense skill
greek = 10(base)+2(greek)+6(semi-pro)-4(non-melee range)+0(loose formation)-2(Bow)+0(1-handed)-1(no shield)= 11 defense skill
egypt = 10(base)+0(machimoi)+6(semi-pro)-4(non-melee range)+0(loose formation)-2(Bow)+0(1-handed)-1(no shield)= 9 defense skill
eastern = 10(base)-2(eastern low end)+6(semi-pro)-4(non-melee range)+0(loose formation)-2(Bow)+0(1-handed)-1(no shield)= 7 defense skill

What do you think?

[Zarax]

Suppanut, spear is a defensive weapon and at least the one handed one doesn't deserve a penalty.
Also, remember that spear gets an hardcoded -4 attack and light spear -4 defense that must be taken into account.

[Spartan198]

Is a "Holder of an Eagle" trait possible for a general in command of an army that wipes out a first cohort?

[Suppanut]

Zarax, ok, it's my fault.

Here is some part that I made some revision include spear modifier on defensive skill.

defense skill calculation
Base value = 10

Unit Class & Culture modifier; Based on unit class&culture list for PMP, +2 for each training level
Summery; Culture modifier
--> carthage Anti-Marius = -2
--> carthage Post-Marius = +0
--> rome Anti-Marius = +2
--> rome Post-Marius = +2
--> partial civilized = +2
--> barbarian = +4
--> greek = +2
--> egypt cleruch = +2
--> egypt machimoi = +0
--> eastern low end = +0
--> eastern high end = +2
--> horse faction cavalry = +4
--> horse faction Infantry = +0

Summery; Class modifier
Citizen group
lvl 0; garrison = +2
lvl 1; levy = +4
lvl 2; militia = +4
lvl 3; semi-professional = +6
lvl 4; professional = +8
lvl 5; assault = +8
lvl 5; elite = +10
Noble group
lvl 4; minor nobility = +6
lvl 5; noble = +6
Hero group
lvl 3; heroic = +8 or +10
lvl 5; champion = +10

Unit role Modifier
--> Non-Melee Range = -4
--> Melee Range = +2
--> Skirmish = -2
--> Special Role = +0
--> Melee = +4
--> Line = +6

Formation
--> Tight = -4
--> loose = +0

Mount and Machine
--> Horse = +4
--> Cataphrect Horse = -2
--> Camel = +2
--> Cataphrect Camel = +0
--> Elephant = +12
--> Cataphrect Elephant = +8
--> Indian Elephant = +16
--> Cataphrect Indian Elephant = +12
--> Siege = -8

Hand-held Weapon Modifier
Huge Bow = -6
Bow = -4
Sling = -2
Pike = -4
Short Pike = +0
Spear = +4
Light Spear = +10(compensate hardcoded -4 defense)
dagger = -2
Axe&Club&Mace = +0
Falx = +2
Sword = +4

Handed Weapon Modifier
1-handed = +0
2-handed = +2

Shield Modifier
No Shield = -1
Small Shield = +2
medium Shield = +0
Large Shield = -1
Huge Shield = -3

armour modifier
1-8 = +0
9-12 = -1
13-16 = -3
17-20 = -5
21 or higher -7

What do you think?

[Suppanut]

Here is other more on armour.

- Change armour calculation modifier
equipment modifier +1(infantry) or +2(cavalry) each level
Culture modifier
--> Western culture base +3
--> Barbarian Culture base +2
--> Eastern culture low end base +1
--> Eastern culture high end base +3
Unit Type base modifier
--> Light = +1
--> Medium = +2
--> Heavy = +3
--> Very Heavy = +5
--> Special Role = +4
Mount Type modifier
--> horse no armour = +1
--> horse half-armour = +2
--> horse armour = +3
--> horse cataphrect = +5
--> camel no armour = +1
--> camel cataphrect = +5
--> elephant no armour = +5
--> elephant cataphrect = +10

What do you think?

[Zarax]

What about making the reduced bonus option a serious one?
Imho we should just cut all the construction and tax bonuses for AI leaving only the trade ones otherwise you are still forced to blitz...
Pontus is not fun at all this way.

[CaesarVincens]

Yeah, I'll cut down or eliminate bonus more. There is quite a bit that has yet to be done. But I don't have time to do it. If you want to work from the latest version, I can merge it into my changes.

[Zarax]

I'll just wait for the next release to progress, faction conversion is now a well-defined process anyway.

[Suppanut]

As orange death disease seem to rampage all of XGM forumer lately, would it will be the good idea if we give all scythian units 2 turn recruitment to made them have slow replenish rate to made them one heavy lost equal disaster as what usually happen to all steppe empire?

Historically, all steppe empires, no matter east or west, had suffer short of manpower when compare the sedentry people. All cavalry who fight for them in war usually the whole generation of fightable men so the stake of steppe empire really high as they can't replace those who die in the battle within the short time. This explain why after they are defeated in huge battle then they will not threat to civilized peoples for about 10-20 years as they must raised the whole new generations to replace the dead ones. And this also describe why their tactic are ruthless to enemy and not so musculine in western eye as their tactic and strategy are served the end of manpower saving.

Give them huge forest penalty for cavalry also help too.

[Zarax]

After downloading the latest XGM here's a list of things to import:

kardakes spearmen (replaces eastern heavy spearmen, much nicer model and skin)
kardakes swordsmen (renamed as pontic thorakitai replaces the eastern legionaries)
georgian swordsmen (AOR for eastern anatolia and armenia)

[CaesarVincens]

Those should all be in the 3.1.10. (In fact, I was having trouble putting them in which is why the release has taken so long.)

[Zarax]

I guess the pontic roster modifications are too much for the next release, right?
Are the carthaginian units going to be there?

[CaesarVincens]

The Pontic changes won't be in 3.1.10 for sure, nor will the new units for Carthage. This is partly just a stop gap release before 3.2.

[Zarax]

I see, would have been nice to put hands on the new beauties...