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  1. #1
    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
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    Default annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"

    So is David Brooks correct? Are we facing $1T deficits as far as the eye can see? Well we be able to finance such spending? Well the gains exceed the costs? If the left leaning TNR has doubts, we are indeed in terrible trouble.

    The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly Of David Brooks's 'Moderate Manifesto'


    David Brooks's "Moderate Manifesto" has attracted much attention, and deservedly so. It is a cri de coeur from a respected commentator who cannot stomach what conservatism has become, but who also cannot embrace what he calls the "transformational liberalism" of the Obama administration.

    Brooks' critique is fiscal, ideological, and moral--so let's cover the fiscal aspects first. While he does not object to deficit spending designed to counter a steep economic downturn, he won't accept annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see." Although this number is considerably more pessimistic than the administration's numbers, it may well be more accurate. In a recent analysis, Brookings' William Gale and UC Berkeley's Alan Auerbach conclude that "under what we view as optimistic assumptions, the deficit is projected to average at least $1 trillion per year for the 10 years after 2009, even if the economy returns to full employment and the stimulus package is allowed to expire in two years." In their view, the longer-run picture is even bleaker: Stabilizing the debt/GDP ratio would require us to close a fiscal gap at between seven and nine percent of GDP, between $1 trillion and $1.3 trillion in current dollars.

    Of course, we can't reliably predict the long-term fiscal future. But it does seem likely that the administration's budget would entail an indefinite increase in the debt/GDP ratio, as well as a significant increase in the share of GDP the federal government commands. So the real questions are: 1) whether we can keep on borrowing so much at rates we can afford and the economy can sustain, and 2) whether the benefits of this path exceed its costs. Both of these are matters about which well-informed people can reasonably differ. But one thing is clear at the outset: There is no realistic scenario for the next decade that does not see federal spending rising above what Brooks calls its "modern norm" of 20 percent. The question is not whether, but how much.

    On the ideological front, Brooks criticizes the administration for fostering (or at least assuming) class resentment and for weakening our traditions of decentralization and vibrant voluntary associations. I'll confess I don't understand why tax cuts tilted toward the wealthy represent impartial concern for the common good, while efforts to rebalance the code in favor of middle and working class families amount to class warfare. As for Brooks' other criticisms, there is no question that the Obama budget contemplates a growth of the federal government relative to both the states and civil society. This is what happened under FDR, driving the conservatives of the time to paroxysms of rage. Today's conservatives are doing what Ronald Reagan never did--namely, relitigating the merits of the New Deal. It's not clear whether Brooks intends to join them. If so, he should either argue explicitly that the New Deal was a mistake, or distinguish between today's needs and those of the 1930s. If not, it's hard to see the prima facie case against Obama's course.

    In the moral realm, Brooks accuses the administration of "fervor" and the "self-flattering belief that history has called upon it to solve all problems at once"--in short, of recklessness and hubris. There is no doubt that Obama has proposed an ambitious agenda that refuses to choose between short-term recovery and long-term renewal. It would not have been unreasonable, or a breach of faith, for him to have concluded that the agenda on which he campaigned would have to give way, at least temporarily, to the agenda that events have forced upon him. But one can question his judgment without impugning his character. The president has worked hard not to cross that line, and those who judge him should do so as well. For all I know, Brooks may turn out to be correct, but it is much too soon, and the evidence much too scanty, to warrant such a severe judgment.

    There are some political warning lights flashing, however. The NBC/Wall Street Journal survey released today found more support for President Obama's leadership than for his policies. When people were asked what concerned them more--that the federal government would spend too much money trying to boost the economy and drive up the budget deficit, or that it would spend too little and prolong the recession--fully 61 percent chose the first option and only 29 percent the second. When people were asked whether they would be willing to pay higher taxes so that everyone can have health insurance, only 49 percent said yes, versus 66 percent when Bill Clinton launched his health care initiative in 1993. It may well be that Brooks is expressing the doubts of many of the 38 percent of Americans who identify themselves as moderates. If so, the president may find himself compelled to make the choices among competing priorities that he has thus far avoided.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















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  2. #2

    Default Re: annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"

    One questions the wisdom of lining up dollar bills towards the horizon.

    Seems silly.

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    Default Re: annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    One questions the wisdom of lining up dollar bills towards the horizon.

    Seems silly.
    The common task of determining how far the bills would extend is to lay them end to end. I wond how far one trillion would extend? What if they were only stacked?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar_the_Horrible
    As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought for the other fellow. He could be plotting something.


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    Zephyrus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    The common task of determining how far the bills would extend is to lay them end to end. I wond how far one trillion would extend? What if they were only stacked?
    What does that have to do with the OP? :hmmm:
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    Default Re: annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyrus View Post
    What does that have to do with the OP? :hmmm:
    If the Original Post has to be explained by the Original Poster as to how a subsequent post by the Original Poster commenting on the Original Post , etc. etc. etc. --- :hmmm::hmmm::hmmm:
    Grandson of Silver Guard, son of Maverick, and father to Mr MM|Rebel6666|Beer Money |bastard stepfather to Ferrets54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar_the_Horrible
    As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought for the other fellow. He could be plotting something.


  6. #6

    Default Re: annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    If the Original Post has to be explained by the Original Poster as to how a subsequent post by the Original Poster commenting on the Original Post , etc. etc. etc. --- :hmmm::hmmm::hmmm:
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    Default Re: annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"

    I question the ability of economists to see two years down the road, much less ten.

  8. #8

    Default Re: annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"

    I respect David Brooks and read his article a few days ago. His concerns are legitimate, however I think he got a little too full of himself in this article.

    Obama has had all of 6 weeks in office, so our sample size of what policies actually get put in place is tiny. But if you do look at the Stimulus bill, the economists that had Obama's ear (Moody, Orszag etc.) where all suggesting a ~$1 trillion dollar bill or even more. The final bill was $787 billion. And if you caught Obama's press conference, he hinted that he made a mistake of starting with a comprimised bill, which left no room for Republicans to maneouver and take credit for getting concessions.

    Also, in his preliminary budget, there were real cuts to federal pet programs, especially in ag subsidies and social security/medicare. I think the new spending programs suggested in the budget will end up like the Stimulus; they will get trimmed down ~25% in cost (possibly more as to give a bone to Republicans). If these two things happen, the rampant deficit spending Brooks is so concerned about, will never materialize.

    Obama has consitently talked about controlling the deficit, and reducing long term government spending. How he is presenting his plan to do this right now is more than likely not what will actually happen.

  9. #9
    Zephyrus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    I respect David Brooks and read his article a few days ago. His concerns are legitimate, however I think he got a little too full of himself in this article.

    Obama has had all of 6 weeks in office, so our sample size of what policies actually get put in place is tiny. But if you do look at the Stimulus bill, the economists that had Obama's ear (Moody, Orszag etc.) where all suggesting a ~$1 trillion dollar bill or even more. The final bill was $787 billion. And if you caught Obama's press conference, he hinted that he made a mistake of starting with a comprimised bill, which left no room for Republicans to maneouver and take credit for getting concessions.

    Also, in his preliminary budget, there were real cuts to federal pet programs, especially in ag subsidies and social security/medicare. I think the new spending programs suggested in the budget will end up like the Stimulus; they will get trimmed down ~25% in cost (possibly more as to give a bone to Republicans). If these two things happen, the rampant deficit spending Brooks is so concerned about, will never materialize.

    Obama has consitently talked about controlling the deficit, and reducing long term government spending. How he is presenting his plan to do this right now is more than likely not what will actually happen.
    QFT.

    And I'm with Brooks perspective on this. We need a 3rd party that hasn't been corrupted yet by partisan politics and comes directly from the people. This 2-party oligarchy has gone way out of hand here.
    SEMPER FIDELIS Remember Constantinople Κωνσταντινούπολη


  10. #10

    Default Re: annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyrus View Post
    And I'm with Brooks perspective on this. We need a 3rd party that hasn't been corrupted yet by partisan politics and comes directly from the people. This 2-party oligarchy has gone way out of hand here.
    There are already multiple "3rd parties". Its just that nobody votes for "3rd parties" because the media pretty much straight up ignores them.

    Quote Originally Posted by gojira View Post
    My personal outlook is two options:
    Oh, and QFT.
    Last edited by Lunar4; March 06, 2009 at 10:24 AM.
    Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"

  11. #11

    Default Re: annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"

    Quote Originally Posted by Hotspur View Post
    I question the ability of economists to see two years down the road, much less ten.
    I question the ability of Hotspur to question economists.

  12. #12

    Default Re: annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"

    1 trillion deficit is hardly alot considering we have nearly a total debt of 11 trillion and counting by billions every day, and half of that 1 trillion goes to military spending VP, Sigh if only the world worked together to rid this place of the plague of wars, instead of killing each other, we could pool all our resources together to get rid of hunger and famine.

    Oh well, just a pipedream i guess.

    "I may not like what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

    - Voltaire(1694–1778)

  13. #13

    Default Re: annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin N View Post
    half of that 1 trillion goes to military spending VP,
    What an ill educated thing to say. Why single out the military? Social welfare spending far exceeds the military budget. They is overspending in almost every area.

  14. #14

    Default Re: annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"

    Guess your right, but you have to admit, the military is the most overspent sector we dont even need to go to war, we need social welfare for the people who cant/dont want to work, our budget is 10 times any other country, Though wonder what would happen to our country if social welfare was scrapped, man i wouldent even like to think.

    "I may not like what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

    - Voltaire(1694–1778)

  15. #15

    Default Re: annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"



    GAME OVER

  16. #16

    Default Re: annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin N View Post
    Guess your right, but you have to admit, the military is the most overspent sector we dont even need to go to war, we need social welfare for the people who cant/dont want to work, our budget is 10 times any other country, Though wonder what would happen to our country if social welfare was scrapped, man i wouldent even like to think.
    An end to social welfare would be a great boon to human freedom.

  17. #17

    Default Re: annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"

    Social welfare spending far exceeds the military budget.

    Only if you consider entitlement programs "social welfare". People pay into Social Security and Medicare though a seperate payroll tax but everyone recieves benefits from them in retirement, even Bill Gates (with SS based on how much you paid into the fund). If you get rid of the spending, you have to get rid of the payroll taxes that support them. So if you cut them, you also have to cut the revenue source and no money is saved (currently both funds have extra money in them, making them a net profit for the government, though demographic trends could cause future insolvency) .

    Real "welfare" spending, i.e. giving money & benefits to the poor (Medicaid, unemployment/welfare), are about the same as the baseline DoD budget ($580 vs $516 Billion). The seperate war supplimentals are about $200 billion per year.

    So the federal government spends less on poor people than the military.
    Last edited by Sphere; March 06, 2009 at 10:26 AM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"

    Who knows gojira, alot of major companies are on the verge of collapse, i mean we cant keep bailing them all out forever it will have to stop sometime, and that is when it will collapse i think, i mean its pretty bad, in britain for example, theyve lowered interest rates down to 0.5% there lowest in 300 years, man these greedy fat cat elite bankers really screwed us over.

    "I may not like what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

    - Voltaire(1694–1778)

  19. #19

    Default Re: annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"

    My personal outlook is two options:

    1) US undeveloping to a 2nd world country accompanied by revolution and the dismemberment of the Union into fragmental states

    2) War in the middle east (attack on Iran, most propably by Israel), which - accordingly to Celente and others leads to WW3

    Both not very optimistic outlooks, but the time for optimism is OVER, time to get realistic.

    Reasons:

    1) A planned coup by the bankers, much like in 1929 but this time the result could eventually be world domination of those bankers. When the dollar finally collapsed, and europe is going down the toilet aswell, most likely the International Monetary Fund will offer world currency and a new system (=> unnchallenged fascistic capitalistic rule)

    2) Corporocracies, we do NOT live in democracies,but in corporation controlled pseudo nations. The dirt under my fingernails is more patriotic than any of those hoodlums in the senate (except honest polititians as Ron Paul or Kuscinich a.s.o)

    3) A general dumbing down of the US citizens, making them believe how good it is to have Air craft carriers, how good it is to start wars all around the globe, whilst they are too dumb to see, that the only profiteurs are the corporations (lockheed martin, Boeing...) and the polititians involved in "war business" (Cheney´s halliburton for example, Bush´s ties to the oil companies...)


    I am astonished, after the german´s crashed on their nationalism some decades ago, this time the US will crash. You did EVERY mistake the germans of the thirties did. You believed in your selfish thought of own supremacy, but whilst the german´s leaders back then created a milieu good for its people (nationalSOCIALISM--> full employment inbetween 2years, out of the ashes of versailles they made their country from zero to world power, hardly any homeless, ...) in contrast to that, the americans were made believe, that caring for each other is some kind of ill causing communism... thats what nuggers me most. How could you be SO dumb to make icecold capitalism and corporatocratism run your country?

    I feel pitty for you, you will learn your lesson the hard way now. I sound bitter, I know. Let me explain, for years now I post in forums about the way the americans get fooled, exploited and lied at.

    Meanwhile the stink of all those lies becomes breathtaking, hence I still see posts defending the military budget, I still see people posting the most absurd mainstream rubbish about why these wars- that finally ruined you- are/were justified, I still see people horny for tanks and carriers. You are drug addicts, and your drug is called nationalistic militarism, and your cold turkey will be harsh.

    I am a christ, and I am a empathic guy, so I feel very pitty for the americans. I really do, no sarcasm.

    I find my balm in the thought, that the US might never be able to play the world police (=> world bully) anymore, that´s the good t´side in all that mess.


    I post an excerpt from Geroge galloway, who points out my feelings perfectly:


    Ive seen so many Antonys, so sick of them. Go and stuff your mouth with a burger antony.

    Goji
    Last edited by gojira; March 06, 2009 at 10:06 AM.

  20. #20
    Hotspur's Avatar I've got reach.
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    Default Re: annual deficits of more than $1 trillion stretching "as far as the eye can see"

    There are already multiple "3rd parties". Its just that nobody votes for "3rd parties" because the media pretty much straight up ignores them.
    Actually, it is because the more popular issues that 3-parties coalesce around become absorbed by one of the two major parties.

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