Square of Death

[Whitey5150]

okay, since i started in the Total War series with Rome:Total War, i used this formation i call the square of death. and i know it sounds pretty generic, but it works.

all you have to do is train 4,6 or if you want to go huge, 16 units of the best defensive heavy infantry. (it would be a good idea to train a missile unit or a trebuchet, catapult, etc.)

when you are in battle, form the units into (obviously) a square, and set them to defensive mode (so that they wont pursue the enemy if they rout) you can either do 1 on all sides (4 units), 2 on two sides and 1 unit on 2 sides (6 units), 2 on all sides (8 units), or 4 on all sides (16 units) you can put as many into the circle as long as you have an even amount of units.

after you have done that (if you recruited the missile units, just simply put them in the center of the circle. they should provide good cover for your units in case of large numbered enemies.


and there you go!

[Theseus1234]

sorry to burst your bubble, but this has already been developed in rome and later in medieval II
it's known as "the phalanx square", or more commonly, the "n00b square"
its virtually a giant missile and artillery attractor, and if you're only using HI, then cavalry was well

it's good as a desperate maneuver to hold against stronger numbers, but never in a multiplayer battle or when you have superior numbers

[Carpathian Wolf]

If the person you are playing is even half decent it won't work. Or you could have the enemy under estimate you and lose on their own.

But generally a square formation means the enemy can force all of their infantry to 1/4th of your infantry and eventually push through.

[Whitey5150]

hey, if you own RTW, try it out. it works.

[MaceMan]

hey, if you own RTW, try it out. it works.

It has its uses, yes, but they're very limited. Cluny the Scourge has done a very fine video analysis on the merits and demerits of these squares (specifically in RTW). It's definitely worth watching.

[Old_Scratch]

Ah yes, the Spartan square. This "tactic" has been around since the dawn of RTW, and maybe even earlier. RTW is ridiculously imbalanced so people can get away with stuff like this though. Arrows pretty much bounce off of Spartans even if you fire into the backs of the other side of the square. You'll run out of ammo and not do any real damage. If someone tries this in a game I host I'll terminate it. I see no reason to continue if the other person isn't even going to move or try to play the game. This is one of the reasons why RTW multiplayer aggravates me. It rewards noobishness.

Fortunately M2TW is far more balanced and if you try it in this game you're fixing to get yourself a crushing defeat. Crossbowmen will eat that formation alive and soldiers react more realistically in this. They don't maintain perfect formation with an impenetrable spear wall.

[General Nuisance esq]

Ah yes, the Spartan square. This "tactic" has been around since the dawn of RTW, and maybe even earlier. RTW is ridiculously imbalanced so people can get away with stuff like this though. Arrows pretty much bounce off of Spartans even if you fire into the backs of the other side of the square. You'll run out of ammo and not do any real damage. If someone tries this in a game I host I'll terminate it. I see no reason to continue if the other person isn't even going to move or try to play the game. This is one of the reasons why RTW multiplayer aggravates me. It rewards noobishness.

Fortunately M2TW is far more balanced and if you try it in this game you're fixing to get yourself a crushing defeat. Crossbowmen will eat that formation alive and soldiers react more realistically in this. They don't maintain perfect formation with an impenetrable spear wall.

Hate to disagree but even on RTW with the greek spartans you would get totally nailed on-line as most people would take 6-8 archers and possibly onagers in big money games
The archers would crucify the tightly packed greek cretans and archers firing into the backs of even spartans will slaughter them
The noob box simply doesn't work on multiplayer RTW and even less so on MTW II multiplayer

[Whitey5150]

Hate to disagree but even on RTW with the greek spartans you would get totally nailed on-line as most people would take 6-8 archers and possibly onagers in big money games
The archers would crucify the tightly packed greek cretans and archers firing into the backs of even spartans will slaughter them
The noob box simply doesn't work on multiplayer RTW and even less so on MTW II multiplayer

okay, i have an idea on how to make the spartan square a little more trustworthy.

i have a pic right here:



you put two units on all sides (i recommend pikemen for a more steady kill rate) and its simple: just put all sides as groups and order them to push forward.

im not sure, ive just been uh, pondering on this for a while.

[Seleucid king]

okay, i have an idea on how to make the spartan square a little more trustworthy.

i have a pic right here:



you put two units on all sides (i recommend pikemen for a more steady kill rate) and its simple: just put all sides as groups and order them to push forward.

you see the problem with that is that if you have no cavalry, the infantry are on their own. they can easily be enveloped and you lose the fight.

[jsktrogdor]

okay, i have an idea on how to make the spartan square a little more trustworthy.

i have a pic right here:



you put two units on all sides (i recommend pikemen for a more steady kill rate) and its simple: just put all sides as groups and order them to push forward.

im not sure, ive just been uh, pondering on this for a while.

If you really want to use that formation, you absolutely need to overlap the edges. You see how the longer units are totally exposed on their sides? A cavlary charge at at any of those four points would send the whole thing toppling over, especially with pikemen.

See how Old_scratch has done it here:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

See how there is no exposed side on the corner? You must overlap that edge if you insist on using the formation.

[Old_Scratch]

Hate to disagree but even on RTW with the greek spartans you would get totally nailed on-line as most people would take 6-8 archers and possibly onagers in big money games
The archers would crucify the tightly packed greek cretans and archers firing into the backs of even spartans will slaughter them
The noob box simply doesn't work on multiplayer RTW and even less so on MTW II multiplayer

Well, obviously an oneger would easily nullify a square, but most people play with the no art rule. The easiest way to beat the archers is simpley turn your men to face them. If they are all around you simply place your men back to back on top of each other. This way both front and back are covered by a shield, like this.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Most people don't even take archers though. The most popular army seems to consist solely of Praetorian cavalry and urban cohorts.

This here is a 10k Dinarii army, and notice that every angle, front and back is covered by a shield. Just wait until they waist all their arrows and then turn your inner hoplites to face out. Also, 10K is waaay less than most people play with so they are only going to get harder to kill as one can afford armor upgrades. You don't need archers or cavalry, just good hoplites. Actually sacred band's work better than Spartans because they have both more armor and are cheaper, but still more powerful than armored hoplites.

The real problem with these squares is that you don't know when a player will use one. If I know for sure that a player will use one, then it's easily, I'll design my army around beating this formation and I'll just take it apart. If you have a regular balanced army though it gets to be more of a problem.

It's not that the squares are unbeatable, it's that it's boring to play against them. There is no point in even trying since they obviously aren't going to.

One time someone tried this on me, so I deployed my army and then went to go watch TV for half an hour to 45 minutes. When I came back he still hadn't moved or quit the game and the text buffer was full of every variety of insults. I just marched off the battlefield and ended the game.

And I already said that the noob box doesn't work in M2TW.

[General Nuisance esq]

Well, obviously an oneger would easily nullify a square, but most people play with the no art rule. The easiest way to beat the archers is simpley turn your men to face them. If they are all around you simply place your men back to back on top of each other. This way both front and back are covered by a shield, like this.


Most people don't even take archers though. The most popular army seems to consist solely of Praetorian cavalry and urban cohorts.

This here is a 10k Dinarii army, and notice that every angle, front and back is covered by a shield. Just wait until they waist all their arrows and then turn your inner hoplites to face out. Also, 10K is waaay less than most people play with so they are only going to get harder to kill as one can afford armor upgrades. You don't need archers or cavalry, just good hoplites. Actually sacred band's work better than Spartans because they have both more armor and are cheaper, but still more powerful than armored hoplites.

The real problem with these squares is that you don't know when a player will use one. If I know for sure that a player will use one, then it's easily, I'll design my army around beating this formation and I'll just take it apart. If you have a regular balanced army though it gets to be more of a problem.

It's not that the squares are unbeatable, it's that it's boring to play against them. There is no point in even trying since they obviously aren't going to.

One time someone tried this on me, so I deployed my army and then went to go watch TV for half an hour to 45 minutes. When I came back he still hadn't moved or quit the game and the text buffer was full of every variety of insults. I just marched off the battlefield and ended the game.

And I already said that the noob box doesn't work in M2TW.

I have to say people who resort to noob boxes on RTW generally don't have the intelligence to come up with something as clever as that. However it still would get beaten by the romans (I think)
In my experience it depends on the money (+ rules) as to the type of army you would face, at low money expect plenty of cheap archers. at higher money expect the onagers to appear (anything over 25k will normally be no rules) and don't forget Romans have the pila
But as you rightly said using a noob box is lazy (and boring for your opponant)
also I agree about carthage's sacred band being much better value for money than spartans (and better at surviving archer attacks)

I just love how you played against that noob box class total class

[Viking Prince]

As Old Scratch said -- the crossbows will never miss. I would not want to calculate the losses from crossbows one or two at a time ripping into the square. Eventually you will need to advance and that which makes a perfect defense makes for a poor offense. The men are too slow to react and flankers will break them.

btw --- Even if they eventually win the battle, there will be almost nothing left to fight the next battle. No real general would fight such a battle if part of an actual war. The custom battles are an artificial construct that ignores this fact.

[jsktrogdor]

THE most efficient way to win a battle has and always will be an enemy rout. Thats what the whole battle section of the game is about, routing the enemy. Building yourself into a circle removes almost every moral destroying technique with the exception of missle fire. But im sure it would be great if you had no cavlary and the enemy had far to many.

[Whitey5150]

THE most efficient way to win a battle has and always will be an enemy rout. Thats what the whole battle section of the game is about, routing the enemy. Building yourself into a circle removes almost every moral destroying technique with the exception of missle fire. But im sure it would be great if you had no cavlary and the enemy had far to many.

note: i made this forum before i knew it was called the n00b square.

[Nazgûl Killer]

What I believe people here are trying to say, is that this "Noob square" Works, however not in multiplayer games. If you want, use it, but no one assures you defeat nor victory, but it is proven that this tactic is easily countered and thus is so... Bad. So, a suggestion, don't use it outside of single player. Anyways, I myself used to use that tactic until mid-game in single-player, which I suffered too many casualties, so I started coming up with more original formations (The 2 way, as I like to call it, the bait... I got some up my sleeve), the important thing is to KNOW what the enemy has and set up a formation according to his strength/weakness, not just stick with one formation and hope you'll win, because eventually, you'll lose. Especially against human foes.

[jsktrogdor]

I played a battle with 4 units of aventurous and 1 unit of dismounted portugese knights. Just cause I was bored. Vs 20 units of french gendarms lol, they lost 500 men before they finnaly gave up and just sat there waiting for me to break formation.

I wonder how it would of gone vs 20 retinue longbowmen? ^_^

[Peter]

Only time i consider it. Is when i know i will be defeated. And i place this formation in the town square (if the town square has multiple entrances around it) so to maximize the casualties on the enemy's side. To get a easier time when taking the settlement back. Only in single player ofcourse. Because the AI cant counter anything the player has exploited.

[Deadman1709]

Crossbows and firearms do a good job tearing apart heavy troops. Especially when they are static.
Pushing the square forward in all directions? that'll just break the square and make the already retarded tactics even more retarded.

I only resulted to this formation when it was 1 vs. 3 (my bad on campaign map) and the enemy was all over my position. Yet, the formation rip off some of my maneuverability and especially the traditional outflanking and encircling tactics people usually use.

When it's 1 vs. 2, I would form a line, with the flanks slightly bent back to the rear (make somewhat an U shape). This make the flanks less vulnerable and cavalry can respond faster to attack enemy's flank. This formation is not ideal during offensive maneuvers since the troops will engage at different times, allowing some of the enemy to avoid being pinned down.

On rare occasions when I was surround by 2 enemies. I would split my force into 2. The army will be place close to the expected position of the enemies' weaker force. 2 elements of the army: the infantry heavy will face and expect the stronger force to move in while the cavalry (with infantry support) will try to rout the weaker force as quick as possible and return to deal with the stronger force.

One of my favourite battle is the attack on Venice city. I stand on the bridge and was sandwiched by the garrison force and a relieve force. So I put over half my heavy infantry to guard the bridge. The remaining cavalry and inf. was positioned to the rear, facing the relieving force. The bridge inf. was supported by artillery and archers.

The Cavalry along with some inf. make some quick and effective work on the relieving force, though they can't chase the routing troops very far. The bridge force was able to repel attacks and repel again when the enemy fleeing troops regroup. A final push over the bridge marked the end for 2 large armies of Venetian.

[Muagan_ra]

No offence mate, but spamming high-end units isn't what I call good strategy.