Historical Analysis of Vigilantism

[sephodwyrm]

Probably not the first topic of its kind, but this one is different in that:
1. the OP is longer than usual
2. the OP provides a case study of a semi well known case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_McElroy

Ken McElroy is a serial rapist, robber, thief and a real world bully. Like any school bullies, the local authorities were unable to pin down on him until the school kids, I mean, townspeople, formed up a gang and decided they had enough of McElroy.

I was wondering whether the time of McElroy had anything significantly different. Back in 1980s, vigilante was a big topic due to increasing crime rate. I remembered the Dirty Harry movies were made about this time.

Another pretty semi famous guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodrigo_Duterte

Filipino punisher. In a country where there's no death sentence, Mr Rodrigo still managed to convert a crime capital into a tourist haven. How? Probably by shooting criminals that got away free from the country's justice system. Does this mean that vigilantism actually works, or that the Philippines and Skidmore are just a step behind the rest of everybody else?

Just on a side note:
There are also vigilantes in Iraq murdering women not wearing traditional costumes. Though I would consider those guys closer to froth at the mouth fanatics...

[Kiljan Arslan]

was this in anyway influenced by the fact that the Watchmen is coming out?

[sephodwyrm]

was this in anyway influenced by the fact that the Watchmen is coming out?

No. I was more influenced by watching Dirty Harry again.
Skidmore Missouri points out something I've read before in the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. And almost every single last one of the Marvel Superheroes are also vigilante of some sort. The most lame, however, was Bruce Wayne...

[Justice and Mercy]

Vigilantism may not always be immoral, and other times it shouldn't matter if it's moral or not.

Some idiot decides to be a hero during a bank robbery and gets lucky, he shouldn't be punished.

Someone decides to kill the man found "not guilty" of raping and killing their daughter? That's murder under the law.

That's how it should be.

[Georgy Zhukov]

Im my opinion vigilantism is immoral, killing someone without a trial sucks but it is effective and it lowers crime rates but should be left to the natural state when trying to re-establish society.

[Justice and Mercy]

Im my opinion vigilantism is immoral, killing someone without a trial sucks but it is effective and it lowers crime rates but should be left to the natural state when trying to re-establish society.

It's moral in many cases, it just shouldn't matter in the eyes of the state.

Propriety says "If someone is found 'not guilty' as far as the state's concerned nothing ever happened".

[sephodwyrm]

In the case of McElroy, the court just could not identify the actual killer of McElroy. The people collaborated with the supposed killers of the town bully and rapist who practically walked away from every crime he had committed to date~~so basically, the people agreed that it's moral and simply refused to budge. Then again, to get an entire town hating you so much that they wanted to kill you either meant that you did something really really awful or the town is under the thralls of some charismatic demagogue.

found "not guilty" of raping and killing their daughter?

Depends on the circumstance on how he wasn't found guilty, don't you think?

[Justice and Mercy]

Depends on the circumstance on how he wasn't found guilty, don't you think?

Not unless he or someone else influenced the jury's decision and that itself can be taken to court, in which case it's still up to the state.

But you should never be allowed to kill someone for a crime when the court says "not guilty".

[sephodwyrm]

Not unless he or someone else influenced the jury's decision and that itself can be taken to court, in which case it's still up to the state.

Going to court isn't exactly free, and the state usually have bigger issues to care about. In most cases of vigilantism that people actually might identify with, legal options had been exhausted.

But you should never be allowed to kill someone for a crime when the court says "not guilty".

Depends on the court, shouldn't it? What if a Shariah court judges a man not guilty for marrying a 13 year old? That was ruled as illegal by a secular court which sparked mass riots in England and actually killed several people there (check for Maria Hertogh). A lawyer used the jury to sway the court against his defendants (people that mauled and bashed a British man to death). If there were two courts with opposing decisions, which court are we supposed to trust?

i.e. There's no vigilantism when the men walked free. But the said lawyer went on to find a nation and got rid of the jury.

[Barry Goldwater]

Well...where the law cannot be upheld (possibly because the guys supposed to enforce it have no spine), I guess you'd have to take matters into your own hands...not to mention you probably wouldn't be in the best state of mind if you see someone kill your relative or friend, then get away spotless in court...

[Justice and Mercy]

In most cases of vigilantism that people actually might identify with, legal options had been exhausted.

And so in the eyes of the state the victim of a vigilante is innocent and the vigilante a murderer.

Which is how it should be.

Depends on the court, shouldn't it?

I mean a proper court of law.

[sephodwyrm]

you probably wouldn't be in the best state of mind if you see someone kill your relative or friend, then get away spotless in court...

Especially if even the police agrees with your case and the court gives a third degree murder sentence afterward.

[Erwin Rommel]

Duarte, hmm never heard of him, oh wait its in MIndanao, figures. THere's lots of "vigilantism" there albeit as far as I know down to asking the government to give them the right to bear arms, since with the whole MILF thing going around the remotest places. Oh yeah the gov't refused.

[Barry Goldwater]

Especially if even the police agrees with your case and the court gives a third degree murder sentence afterward.

When the law has given the criminal the punishment he deserves, vigilantism is immoral...but I guess there's just no satisfying some people

However...as with K. McElroy...the guy deserved death, though his shooter still should have been punished.

[sephodwyrm]

MILF thing going around the remotest places.

Dude, that is one MILF I wouldn't be screwing around with (lulz).

though his shooter still should have been punished.

I suspect its shooterS.

[boofhead]

This goes on in a couple of South American countries. People accused of rape etc beaten and burned to death by mobs in the streets. Then the police turn up and whisk the mangled corpse away, and nobody gets charged because 100 people were involved. There are numerous cell phone vids showing these acts of vigilantism.

Not really sure what to think about it. I mean if the dead were actually child rapists then I say it serves them right to die such a tortuous death at the hands of the communities involved. However without a trial where's the evidence? We all know how rumours can fly through communities when people are emotional.

That McElroy sounds like he deserved it too. Nothing but a dangerous psychopath holding an entire town to ransom.

First port of call should always be the authorities, but if such efforts fail repeatedly on a long term basis to result in any form of justice, then what does a community do? Someone will eventually snap.

This issue makes me think of the Cronulla Riots in Australia. Ten years of police ineptitude and failure to act while people were bullied on the beach by ass-hole racist gangs, girls were abused and spat on, people beaten and nobody in authority would do anything. Then after 10 years it exploded and turned into a nasty spectacle - and yet it worked. The problem was solved and nobody got killed. That's a successful act of vigilantism.

[sephodwyrm]

I'm looking up on the Cronulla riots. But it seems that its a combination of large number of people + alcohol.
Does Australia often get angry youth crimes like this? Just a few months ago some graduate student was killed by a mob of these youths.

On a side note, for the longest time I thought its an anti-homosexual parade with protestors wearing shirts saying : No Lesbs.
Then I was trying to work out how ME has anything to do with Lesbs. But thought of Arab girls touching each other in sensuous massage disrupting the traditional Aussie family was extremely plausible.

In the end it was my mind doing a deceitful trick on me. It turned out to be No Lebs.