How do you solve a problem like Αχαΐα?

[Quinn Inuit]

What should we do with the Greek Cities? At this point, I'm leaning toward turning them into an Athens+Sparta+Elis faction. The other cities will be removed and placed into a (largely) Greek superfaction comprised of Syracuse, half of Crete, the Bosporan Kingdom (the two sides of the Straits of Kerch only), and I'm not sure what else.

The other problem is that I'm not sure which faction to replace for the superfaction. We're already going to need one (replacing the Britons) for the Celt, Lusitanni, Bastarnae, and Mauryan superfaction, and Illyria is being replaced by Pergamum. I guess we could replace Numidia with the Greek superfaction, but I'm not sure how well that would go faction personality-wise. Maybe we could put Numidia in the other superfaction...

[pannonian]

I think the only way to answer would be to go ahead with the superfaction experiment, then see how it works. There isn't much evidence that we're familiar with with which to pose an answer.

[despot_of_rhodes]

How about Massila, Narbo, Emporeare(?) - the greek colonys in West Medditeranea inside the "Greek Superfaction"? Actually i thought, every important ( rich due to trade or mines ) town would go into one of the Superfactions, so they could be efficient against any invader.

Btw: I don´t know much about the "Rebel spawn engine", but is it possible to make them spawn more often and in better quality only in the provinces controlled by a human player? That would not screw up the AI development, i think.

Didn´t Numidia supposed to be in the "Indian Superfaction", to make sure, the provinces are at a propper distance from each other? Or do i miss the sence of the question?

One thing i also noticed: Macs are really the underdogs now. Each game starts with an alliance between GCS and Macs, but sooner or later ( i guess, it depends on how well Greeks do outside of Greece itself ) they start a war against each other, and mostly the Macs barely managed to capture 1-2 rebell settlements in the North ( Pella etc. ) but the Greeks steamroll them quite badly, because Corinth i.e. devides Greek proinvces in half, so to say. So, for now, Macs are actually no more a Black Death, but black & dead instead :hmmm:

[Mister S]

I think Athens and Sparta shouldn't be together - they should be able to attack each other.

[Caligula Caesar]

I thought the Greek cities was going to become the Greek super faction.

[Quinn Inuit]

I think the only way to answer would be to go ahead with the superfaction experiment, then see how it works. There isn't much evidence that we're familiar with with which to pose an answer.

You're probably right. We need to start somewhere, though.

How about Massila, Narbo, Emporeare(?) - the greek colonys in West Medditeranea inside the "Greek Superfaction"? Actually i thought, every important ( rich due to trade or mines ) town would go into one of the Superfactions, so they could be efficient against any invader.

Well, that's the question. Do we want to shoehorn as many regions as possible into a superfaction, or do we want to limit it fairly important ones. For instance, putting Massillia into a superfaction may cause them to be tougher, but it also creates the possibility of Massillian armies conquering Rome. I'm not sure I want to open that door.

Btw: I don´t know much about the "Rebel spawn engine", but is it possible to make them spawn more often and in better quality only in the provinces controlled by a human player? That would not screw up the AI development, i think.

No, I think it's universal.

Didn´t Numidia supposed to be in the "Indian Superfaction", to make sure, the provinces are at a propper distance from each other? Or do i miss the sence of the question?

I'm not sure I understand your question. The provinces should be distant from one another, but I'd be satisfied with a three-province buffer.

One thing i also noticed: Macs are really the underdogs now. Each game starts with an alliance between GCS and Macs, but sooner or later ( i guess, it depends on how well Greeks do outside of Greece itself ) they start a war against each other, and mostly the Macs barely managed to capture 1-2 rebell settlements in the North ( Pella etc. ) but the Greeks steamroll them quite badly, because Corinth i.e. devides Greek proinvces in half, so to say. So, for now, Macs are actually no more a Black Death, but black & dead instead :hmmm:

Yeah, I should've held off nerfing them till I dealt with the GCs. That'll definitely be dealt with in the next version or two. (Next version might be just a unit upgrade...I've got a _lot_ to implement.)

I think Athens and Sparta shouldn't be together - they should be able to attack each other.

Well, they were allied for a time around the opening period of the game.

I thought the Greek cities was going to become the Greek super faction.

I'd like to avoid that if possible--I will probably be shot if people fire up a new version and find they can't play as Sparta.

[Sorceri]

I'd like to avoid that if possible--I will probably be shot if people fire up a new version and find they can't play as Sparta.

<Fletches a special arrow and prepares her bow - just in case>

[Scutarii]

You could arrange the superfactions like: Greeks, Celts, and Eastern. That would involve not adding in Pergamon, and making it a part of the Greek superfaction, though. That would allow you to nicely add in Numidia into the eastern one, as well as the Mauryan's, Colchis, Nabateans etc..

Another avenue: have a barbarian superfaction, greek superfaction, and represent the others with strong rebels and cutting off the southern bits of the desert in N. Africa so Carthage/player doesn't get tangled up there. That also gives you a couple of other settlements to work with. I would hate to have the Mauryans, Numidians and celts in one faction, what would you name it?

[Quinn Inuit]

You could arrange the superfactions like: Greeks, Celts, and Eastern. That would involve not adding in Pergamon, and making it a part of the Greek superfaction, though. That would allow you to nicely add in Numidia into the eastern one, as well as the Mauryan's, Colchis, Nabateans etc..

I love Pergamum, but that idea is pretty cool.

Another avenue: have a barbarian superfaction, greek superfaction, and represent the others with strong rebels and cutting off the southern bits of the desert in N. Africa so Carthage/player doesn't get tangled up there. That also gives you a couple of other settlements to work with. I would hate to have the Mauryans, Numidians and celts in one faction, what would you name it?

Yeah, I know, that's the problem with just one superfaction for them. Do you think three superfactions is too many, though?

[despot_of_rhodes]

I can´t imagine the Greek Superfaction could manage to indanger Romans... they would need to march through Gaul, and even if they do, Romans are quite tough, they often recover even after losing Capua to Epirotes. In case the Romans survive the Pyrrhus invasion, it´s mostly them, who push towards Gaul and farther in Europe.
Btw: Massila becomes overrun sooner or later, but certenly within 10 years, same with Narbo, no matter how large their garrisons are, because Gauls roll in waves and weaken them finaly enough, to make a final assault.

Btw: It´s been a while, but what is going to be the "status" of those superfactions? They will be (un)playable? They will be conquering neighbour towns or even expanding farther? I think to remember, there was an idea to limit their recruitment pool to their core cities to prevent a too far expantion and their gouverneurs, at least in the beginning, would be immovable?
If that´s gonna be the case, how can they threaten any powerfull faction, like Romans i.e.?
If they are not gonna be playable, then 3 superfaction would be still ok, i think.
Oh, and about Numidians: the one crappy town in the southern Sahara - are you gonna keep it? Just asking, because i think, it makes almoust no sence for any faction to conquer it and one could put another important city somewhere else on the map ( i would like to see one more gaulic town, just to grant them a bigger recruitment pool, or one could add one more on the Iberian Pennisula, including some mines, to make the the hole area bigger and wealthier ).

[Scutarii]

I love Pergamum, but that idea is pretty cool.



Yeah, I know, that's the problem with just one superfaction for them. Do you think three superfactions is too many, though?

I, personally, would go with just two, Greeks and Celts, representing the Indians as strong rebels and making much of N. Africa uncapturable and one settlement (Dimmidi and whatnot, useless towns down there). But three seems to work fine in XGM, with the Greeks, Celts and Eastern Kingdoms.

Or go with what RS did and make them just a generic free people's faction... But don't expect much coherent behaviour. I can tell you this much: the Indie Greeks in XGM are damn vicious, so splitting up superfactions seems to be the better route.

[Caligula Caesar]

Sparta and perhaps Athens would be part of the superfaction, and I, for one, would be interested to play as the superfaction. I also don't see how the experience would be any different to playing as the Greek Cities as they are now, except that it would be more interesting because you have the Bosporus and several of the other colonies as well.

[Ivanelme]

Wasn't there some discussion about breaking the Greeks up into the two different leagues? I know they weren't exactly around during the time this game starts, but it might be an easy interesting solution. The question is how many faction slots are we looking at having?

If you remove the Britons and the Illyrians that gives you 2 faction to work with. Could have the two leagues and a Greek colonies super faction which encompasses Syracuse and the like.

Don't know how that turned out the tread spanned 11+ pages and I am still wading through it.

[Caligula Caesar]

I don't think it would be quite fair to have 4 factions in Greece - it would take up too many faction slots, and besides, there aren't enough cities there to warrent it.

[Quinn Inuit]

I guess we could do one playable multifaction as the Greek Cities, but I fail to see how that would be different than the RTRPE Greek Cities faction (except with a few more members), and IIRC that wasn't that effective as an AI faction or that much fun to play as a human.

I haven't played RTRPE for a long time, though, so I could be wrong.

btw, I intend to make the superfactions playable.

[Quinn Inuit]

I kind of like the idea of having an Eastern Kingdoms faction, but I also like the idea of having Pergamum. I'm torn.

I'd rather not make a generic faction if I could avoid it. I think it might look a little weird.

Why do are the Indie Greeks in XGM so vicious? I don't understand.

[Scutarii]

DimeBagHo gave them tons of starting troops and with the anti-player bias, if you go to war with them, you have a lot of troops to go through for not so much gain. Just comparing them to RS's Free People's, who are fairly dociile compared to that. I find they act far more like standard rebels because the AI can't think too coherently when they have that many territories that far apart, which supports many superfactions rather than one generic one.

[Quinn Inuit]

Interesting. Ok, I'll bear that in mind. I hate to reduce the number of actual factions, but multiple superfactions would make the game world so much more interesting that it's hard to go that route.

[Iskandar]

I also think 2 superfactions is a good idea - these and Pergamon in the place of Briton, Illyria and Numidia.

You don't necessarily have to associate those factions with greeks and celts. You can let them have only AOR units recruitable, and only in their starting provinces. Then you group their provinces in 2s and 3s. This should make them viable enough, without being overwhelming. And you don't have to think about gauls in India. There remains the problem of AI personality, but something like napoleon or smith should be balanced enough to make them work, even though you might have to represent celtic tribes, greeks and indians in the same faction.

As far as Greece goes, I think that we'd have to represent the Aetolian League, the Achean League, Sparta and Athens. The last one should probably be rebel, seeing as how they were little more than a punchbag by that time. From the other 3 one should be playable and the other two - in the two separate superfactions, so that there's a possibility of free for all.

The problem, I think, would be to cleverly choose which province goes to which superfaction, so that war between them won't allow one of them to gain too much ground, or lead to an ahistorical/unrealistic conflicts.

Oh, and India should definitely be in one of them, right now the Bactrians have it way too easy.

[Quinn Inuit]

That would be interesting...it would allow us to intersperse them, with different superfactions warring with each other and everyone.

Two problems that I can see with that plan:
1) General units. They'd all have to have the same one as they get new ones, even though we could define separate ones at the game start.
2) Buildings and cities. One of the nice thing about themed superfactions is that the buildings and cities would look more appropriate.