Should Aromanian-Language Schooling Become Available in Greece?

[Romano-Dacis]

To me it seems like an important question given that the Aromanians are estimated to be a large part of Greece's population. The Balkano-Romanian dialects (Istroromanian, Aromanian, Meglenoromanian) are considered endangered by linguists (see source, footnote 1) and the European Comission. Their numbers are at best only estimated since Greek censuses are not based on maternal tongue. Greek Helsinki claims that 200,000 could live in Greece. The Association of French Aromanians claims the number could be as high as 700,000 (source, see Macedo-Romanians). Many Aromanians however deny their own ethnicity and are vehemently patriotic of the country they are stationed in. That is why they were often against education in their own language and attempted to assimilate. This objection to education in their own language may be a result of Hellenization efforts by the Greek government in the early 20th century. The Greeks viewed Vlachs as "backwards" and used the deraugatory name of "koutzovlach" (limping vlachs) for them.
http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/vlachs.html

If Hellenization was a significant factor for the weakening of the use of Vlach languages, urbanization was another. Aromanian and Megleno-Romanian had survived until recently in many homogeneous villages where most people had been using the language regularly. Those, though, who moved to the cities soon abandoned the use of the language as it was unintelligible to most other city dwellers and was even perceived as a sign of backwardness, while, on the other hand, the children had no way of learning the language as neither was it taught at school nor was it used regularly by family members -often grand parents- at home.

On the other hand, Vlach languages are threatened with extinction. There has been a rather widespread indifference among Vlachs, as well as Arvanite and Macedonian community members about the fate of their mother tongues, along with self-deprecation: they have been led by dominant unilingual Greek culture to -usually sincerely- believe that these languages are deficient, lack proper grammatical structure, and have a poor vocabulary

So the question is:
1) Should the Greek government be doing more to preserve the Aromanian and Megleno-Romanian languages? Even if the actual speakers of this at first disagree with such a policy (due to heavy pressure to assimilate)?
2) Should the European Union get involved in the preservation of these languages?

For those of you who believe that these languages won't die: I have to point out that it has already happened to two other Balkan latins: the Maurovlachs and the Dalmatians of the former Yugoslavia. The Istroromanians are considered "severely endangered" by UNESCO. Thus, the Balkan vlachs may go the way of the dinosaur, and they may do it with seemingly complete indifference.

[Gromovnik]

I think it should, why not. Teaching minority and/or local languages is always a good thing.

[Zephyrus]

Aromanians??

[silverarmon]

blachs (blaxoi) probably... they have become greeks by all meaning right now. Very few, specially the old ones ,are still speaking their dialects (blachika)...

[Zephyrus]

Um, and I'm not in Greece so I'll just get that out of the way here, shouldn't the minorities in greece learn our language first?

It seems like this is similiar to the Spanish~English issue we have over here in the states.

[Romano-Dacis]

Um, and I'm not in Greece so I'll just get that out of the way here, shouldn't the minorities in greece learn our language first?

It seems like this is similiar to the Spanish~English issue we have over here in the states.

Uhh, but the minorities in Greece have been there for about 2,000 years and furthermore that is their only homeland. They do know Greek; this is about giving them the possibility to preserve their own language as well.

For instance in Romania we have schools in Romanian but we also have schools in Hungarian, Greek, even Serbian if there are enough students. Similarily Vojvodina has schools in Serbian, Romanian, and Hungarian.

The only problems for me are if there are enough Aromanians to justify creating schools for them.

[Zephyrus]

Uhh, but the minorities in Greece have been there for about 2,000 years and furthermore that is their only homeland. They do know Greek; this is about giving them the possibility to preserve their own language as well.

For instance in Romania we have schools in Romanian but we also have schools in Hungarian, Greek, even Serbian if there are enough students. Similarily Vojvodina has schools in Serbian, Romanian, and Hungarian.

The only problems for me are if there are enough Aromanians to justify creating schools for them.

That's the main issue here. Is it economically and morally feasible to promote this language when it has no greater influence outside of the balkan sphere? I would say that learning Greek or english would be a better tool for the romanians there, or else have their own country expand their industries to the point where their language will have a benefit to its speakers, instead of being known as a "useless" foreign language. This is a policy that has the potential to divide, not united, the minorites in greece from the greek culture. If we preserve their language, what else are we supposed to do? Revive latin as well?

It won't bode well for the future.

[Romano-Dacis]

Zephyrus, I just have to correct one thing: these people are not Romanians. They are Aromanians. All of these Balkan Latin languages are dialects of the same language (Romanians speak Daco-Romanian, Aromanians speak Aromanian/Macedo-Romanian) but they are still different ethnicities. What may be confusing is this extra a is actually caused by the way in which they pronounce their own name, which is more typically roman, which is the same thing Romanians call themselves. That is why in Albania they were sometimes called rămăńi.

Anyway, there might not even be enough teachers to properly make an Aromanian school, and there are at least Aromanian schools in Romania itself. Anyway, nothing can really be done if the Aromanians themselves lack the political impetus to demand native language education. They should at least meet us halfway.

That's the main issue here. Is it economically and morally feasible to promote this language when it has no greater influence outside of the balkan sphere? I would say that learning Greek or english would be a better tool for the romanians there, or else have their own country expand their industries to the point where their language will have a benefit to its speakers, instead of being known as a "useless" foreign language. This is a policy that has the potential to divide, not united, the minorites in greece from the greek culture. If we preserve their language, what else are we supposed to do? Revive latin as well?

It won't bode well for the future.

[Romios]

The only problems for me are if there are enough Aromanians to justify creating schools for them.

Well if that is what concerns you, then the answer is simple. No, not even close.
The few remaining vlachs(they don't by any mean cosider themselves non-greeks) in greece have found however different methods to preserve their language such as associtions as like this or books like this.

[daxter]

omg i havent been on this site for a loooong time

well back to topic well i think that minoratys languages tend to disapear but there should be something to encourage not only language but local customs and traditions

we are becoming an even more singularized society, we dont praize what makes us diferent from wich others

we are all diferent color....ideas...customs and i think they should be mantained and preserved we need to culture too feel and live (i now being a bit of topic XD) i realy think that it should be alowed, the teaching of those languages you speak of....

but not mandatory....

[Carpathian Wolf]

I think due to some other minorities acting out in Greece, this said group paints a bad image for all minorities in which the Aromanians also fall victim. Even though i'm Romanian by nationality I have Greek family and it pains me to see this sort of thing happen. I've seen Greeks say that Aromanians are actually just Greeks who learned latin and totally ignore the real issue at hand.

But yea the Greek government has no reason to try to assimilate the Aromanians. Some of the most patriotic citizens of Greece are Aromanians today and historically.

[Faramir D'Andunie]

If by Aromanian language you refer to what was listed above as Blachika, this language(or maybe its an idiom, :hmmm has died out many decades ago.
In any case many local idioms seem to have died out today in Greece, mostly as a result of urbanisation and the addition of mass media lately.

But I am definately interested into what you refer when you talk about these languages, since I can't understand exactly on what groups you talk about.

[Carpathian Wolf]

If by Aromanian language you refer to what was listed above as Blachika, this language(or maybe its an idiom, :hmmm has died out many decades ago.
In any case many local idioms seem to have died out today in Greece, mostly as a result of urbanisation and the addition of mass media lately.

But I am definately interested into what you refer when you talk about these languages, since I can't understand exactly on what groups you talk about.

orly?

[Eastern Roman]

The Greeks viewed Vlachs as "backwards" and used the deraugatory name of "koutzovlach" (limping vlachs) for them.

first of all to clear something
The word vlach i greek means villager/peasant/farmer... calling some peasant is used to be insulting for some thousand years now....
There are words who refer to an other ethnicity/group and are also pejorative, like calling someone gypsy.
Calling someone vlach in greek doesn't mean someone from an other ethnicity.

Their numbers are at best only estimated since Greek censuses are not based on maternal tongue. Greek Helsinki claims that 200,000 could live in Greece. The Association of French Aromanians claims the number could be as high as 700,000

I live in greece and i never heard of such ethnic group living in Greece.
Near 1 million people if wanted their rights in a country of 11 million could easily take them, or protest about it in such a way that they could be heard.

Many Aromanians however deny their own ethnicity and are vehemently patriotic of the country they are stationed in. That is why they were often against education in their own language and attempted to assimilate. This objection to education in their own language may be a result of Hellenization efforts by the Greek government in the early 20th century.

This sounds lame, friend.... but perhaps it's just me
Turks make many efforts in the past but we kept our language and identity

So the question is:
1) Should the Greek government be doing more to preserve the Aromanian and Megleno-Romanian languages? ?

If 1 million people in greece wanted that why not

Even if the actual speakers of this at first disagree with such a policy

You mean force people to do something the do not like ?
Why should greece force a greek who lives in USA to learn greek ?

(due to heavy pressure to assimilate)

As i said before this is lame

2) Should the European Union get involved in the preservation of these languages?

of course why not

[Faramir D'Andunie]

Clarification. I was refering to Blahica in Greece beeing a dead language, not generally. My bad I should had made that clear.

I shall let the discussion continue now.

[Carpathian Wolf]

first of all to clear something
The word vlach i greek means villager/peasant/farmer... calling some peasant is used to be insulting for some thousand years now....
There are words who refer to an other ethnicity/group and are also pejorative, like calling someone gypsy.
Calling someone vlach in greek doesn't mean someone from an other ethnicity.

The term seems to have different meanings regionally most of these occuring in the last hundred of so years but Vlach means Latin speaker from the Balkans.

Clarification. I was refering to Blahica in Greece beeing a dead language, not generally. My bad I should had made that clear.

I shall let the discussion continue now.

I'm pretty sure most Aromanian speakers are in Greece.

[Eastern Roman]

The term seems to have different meanings regionally most of these occuring in the last hundred of so years but Vlach means Latin speaker from the Balkans.

Ι am referring to it's meaning in modern Greek/Greece and WHY it got a "pejorative" meaning.

[Carpathian Wolf]

Ι am referring to it's meaning in modern Greek/Greece and WHY it got a "pejorative" meaning.

Just making clarification.

[Faramir D'Andunie]

A group as large as 1 million people in a country of 11 million can't really hide itself. Strange I have never heard of them.

And I agree with karakalos, the term Vlach used to refer to villagers/peasants not a difference ethnicity, and got a negative impact during the urbanisation of the late second half of 20th century when people from the countryside flocked the capital and other major cities.

In any case if there are indeed such speakers in Greece then sure they I do not see anything wrong with beeing taught the said language.

However. bear in mind that Greece has been seeing many local idioms slowly dissapear for the same reasons. Pontic one, Kretan ones for example are only spoken by a handfull of people(most of which are of old age.)

[Romano-Dacis]

first of all to clear something
The word vlach i greek means villager/peasant/farmer... calling some peasant is used to be insulting for some thousand years now....
There are words who refer to an other ethnicity/group and are also pejorative, like calling someone gypsy.
Calling someone vlach in greek doesn't mean someone from an other ethnicity.

This is a new connotation. Vlach was originally an ethnic term referring to people speaking a Latin language. That is why for instance Polish people call Italians Wlochy and used to call Romanians Wolochy. It is an exonym (used by foreigners). The term Aromanian is the word they use to describe themselves). The term Vlach adopted different meanings in different countries alongside the ethnic term. In many countries for instance the term Vlach is associated with shepherding. In Croatia the term Vlach means any Orthodox Christian. In Transylvania the term Vlach became almost synonymous for serf because Vlachs were forced into that social strata. These terms associated with occupations only arose much later.

Second of all: the Greeks have a very big superiority complex pretty much to anyone around them, and indeed this is stated in the Helsinki Greece document as a leading cause of the decline of Aromanian as a language, with Aromanians/Vlachs being taught that their language was "inferior." Those are the words of the primary source.

I live in greece and i never heard of such ethnic group living in Greece.
Near 1 million people if wanted their rights in a country of 11 million could easily take them, or protest about it in such a way that they could be heard.

Well then you must be blind. Estimates range from 40,000, to 200,000 which seems more acceptable to me, and finally to 700,000 which seems exaggerated.

This sounds lame, friend.... but perhaps it's just me
Turks make many efforts in the past but we kept our language and identity

1) In spite of the horror stories you may have learned the Turks never forced anyone to learn their language nor adopt their religion. Non-muslims were taxed but there was never any forced conversion. The only exception to this were the janissaries.

There has been heavy antagonism in Greece towards anyone not speaking Greek; it's an established fact of the nationalist revolution that happened there. If you don't like it, contact the Greek Helsinki Human Rights Watch.

I was refering to Blahica in Greece beeing a dead language

So it's already too late.