Calvins' Hellenic Leadership workthread

[Keravnos]

This thread is an effort to create for the Hellenic world a leadership system in the tracks of Calvins' great work.

I have done some preliminary work on the naval arm.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...30#post4123630

The specifically “naval” complement on board was drawn from the non-Romans in the empire. An inscription from the island of Cos (IGRR 1.843) illustrates the position on a typical warship in detail. It records A. Terentius Varro, the presbeutes or legatus in charge (in the First Mithridatic War of 84–82 bc), as “leading the whole fleet,” Eudamos (a Greek) as nauarchos (navarch) in command of the squadron, and specifies the other officers as a trierarchos, the captain, a kybernetes (Lat. gubernator), the helmsman or pilot, a keleustes (Lat. celeusta), the rowing officer, a proreus (Lat. proreta), the officer in the bow, a pentacontarchos, apparently a junior officer, an iatros (Lat. medicus), a doctor, and at least 20 epibatae or marines. The inscription breaks off before the oarsmen, eretai (Lat. remiges) are mentioned (if in fact they were).

I did some further research and found that there was a "Hyparchos" or XO and that he or pentacontarchos would be in charge of the Marines. (The other possibility is that they would have their own officer.

[Father Jack]

Will we be doing a separate Spartan army wing?

Thucydides and Xenophon give an army command structure like so, although I'm not sure if it had changed by 217BC

level 1 - Homoioi
level 2 - Enomotarches
level 3 - Pentekonter
level 4 - Lochagos
level 5 - Polemarchos

Also:
- Hippeis
- Hippagretai (officials who chose the Hippeis members)

[Keravnos]

Ηistorians are divided on this point. Some argue that along with the pike phallanx, the lochos, dilochia, syntagma, taxis order of battle of the Macedonians was followed.

I need to read more before I can speak for Sparta. Anyone else though, had gone Mak on the way they organised their army. The real challenge will be to create a realistic portrayal of the career paths in Hellenistic Kingdoms and that takes a lot of reading.

[pseudocaesar]

Ηistorians are divided on this point. Some argue that along with the pike phallanx, the lochos, dilochia, syntagma, taxis order of battle of the Macedonians was followed.

I need to read more before I can speak for Sparta. Anyone else though, had gone Mak on the way they organised their army. The real challenge will be to create a realistic portrayal of the career paths in Hellenistic Kingdoms and that takes a lot of reading.

I understand the lot of reading part. I am currently writing a paper for my Roman Empire class, on how Augustus used the army for control and what was the constitutionality of it all so to speak. You really have to learn everything about the Roman political system of like... the last 200 years, just to know how differently he did everything. Argh, I have like a million books to get through.

[Keravnos]

some progres...

Archontes of the Hellenistic cities.


Gymnasiarches: Honorary position involved with organizing and running the city’s gymnasia and palestrai (we know from archaeological evidence that both existed in at least 15 cities. Even if it kept its citizens in a fit shape, in times of peace, it was also known to interfere with military training in times of war. Hence the reason why Pyrrhos’ once given command of Taras and its army, first thing he did was shut down the City’s Gymnasia and Palestrai. It has been suggested, however, that this had more to do with keeping people off crowed places, where conspiracies could form, rather than any actual interference Gymansia and Palestrai.

nWhen a family member gets that trait, he will also have a “Veteran trainer” who will be responsible both for “Pezon taksies” aka training infantry in marching and also “Eutaksian” aka proper battle arrangement of infantry men while excercising battle drills with mock weapons and their “thureoi” shields. (From an epigraph found in Alaisa, Sicily)

Gamewise, this would mean that the Family member with the “Gymnasiarches” trait would get a vet. Officer. As a follower, but most importantly one of either
-“pezon taksies” -> This family member tends to march his infantry a lot, which shows. +15% movement
-“Eutaksian” -> This family member won a laurela war in war training with thureoi shields so he can himself train his troops how to better fight ordrerly in the battlefield, especially close fighting. +1 attack.

Agonothetes: Responsible for organizing the local annual, biannual etc. races, wrestling matches and championships of any kind. Those races were important training and morale raising events. We know for example that in the annual Panathenaia celebration, mock “battles” would be waged with the participating horsemen splitting up in two opposing teams, and each throwing blunted spears against the other and galloping against one another in fake combat, called “anthippasis”, performing the exact maneuvers they would in real war.
+ chevron for troops in city.

Agoranomos: Responsible for regulation/enforcement of the city’s hygienic and market rules as well as maintaining general peace so that nothing inhibits commerce: -2 in filth, +500 coins in trade.

Tamias: Tax collector, appointed by the city for the most unpleasant yet most necessary of tasks. +2000 coins.

Grammateus: Responsible for Record keeping. One of his prime duties would be to maintain correct records in the Metroon, the registry of all citizens, mainly those fit for war. The names of whoever was selected to fight would be posted in the Agora and failure to comply would mean death or exile. He would also be responsible for benefits awarded to those who the city chose for. (including free meals for the veterans of wars in the Prytaneion, free burial for those who couldn’t afford one, awarding dowry to the daughters of fallen warriors who would be without one and thus coulnd’t get married.)
+happiness

(It could require a building called Metroon=registry, if such is available).
(In Seleucid terminology), it also seemed to indicate that the "Archigrammateus tes Dynameos" - chief secretary of the army, would be primarily responsible for all logistica and other supplies for the army.

Secondary archons (those traits would be awarded along with the primary ones) -to be revised as it is not clearly known who were primary or secondary, pending further research it would be advisable to drop primary and secondary divisions altogether.-

Teichon Epistates: Secondary archon responsible for maintaining the walls and oxybeleis/lithoboloi Katapeltai which were a inherent part of their defensive abilities.
+ turns for the city to surrender if possible, otherwise + morale for the troops of a city if on siege.

Logistes: “Accountant”, an adjutant of the Tamias, one of many under orders of a Tamias. This is where the word “logistics” comes from. Any Family member with such a trait would show excellent logistics ability.
+morale for the troops, as they would be kept well supplied
--cannot be combined with “Tamias” as he is a subordinate of tamias and both traits can’t exist in the same person.

Hypographeus: “Undersigner”. Secondary Archon. His job would be to review whether the applicant had all the necessary requirements for a specific task or benefit he would apply for, and then undersign, under the petitioners’ name.
+happiness, as he would get things moving for many citizens

Hyperetes: “Servant”. Responsible for storing and distributing loot. Also responsible for paying the army wages.
--It has been shown that both hyperetes and Karyx/keryx would serve in the army.

Karyx (dorian greek) or Keryx (Ionian/Attic greek) Hireable, lower archon responsible for public proclamations of anyone who would have the right to do so. Most of the times they would be used in the army, however, as heralds.

Ampochos:
http://archimedes.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.d...=entry&id=d004
Guarantor.

Sitophylax: Secondary archon whose responsibility is to enforce a law which stipulated that grain of all sorts should be sold at affordable prices for the people of Athens. Also responsible for making sure that grain merchants could not own more than 50 units of grain storage, ensuring that no individual grain merchant could "corner" the market. In Athens of Classical times and most certainly later on there would be 5 in the main city and 5 in its port, Peiraius.
+turns in a siege if possible, -no decrease of forces during siege turns if possible.

He would also provide two followers: (both of which were actual city officials under the directions of the sitophylax) –the Family member with “sitophylax” trait would get either one of…
Agertes Sitou Responsible for acquiring grain. (troops included)
+morale

The same exact thing in Ancient Athens was epimeletes tou emporiou. They were responsible for all transactions in the entire region of Attica, not just Athens. One of their primary functions was to ensure adequate grain supply. 2/3 of all grain shipments were directed to Athens and prohibition of any grain trade which wouldn't go to Athens first, in most part.

metronomoi Responsible for inspection of the measurements that the grain merchants and all merchants used. They would inspect all weights to make sure they complied with the official "weights" that the city of Athens sanctioned. Many merchants would try to steal in weighing the produce they sold, using (in a contemporary example) 3/4 of a kg titled as "1 kg". Metronomoi were there to make sure they didn't get away with that, 5 in Athens 5 in Peiraeus.

episemos elegktes nomismaton A slave owned by the state whose job was to inspect all suspected fraudulent coins in circulation, forged coins were a real problem in the past, punishable by death. Other penalties included confiscation of all merchandise that the fraudulent merchant carried and 50 lashes if he was a slave. There were two of them, one in the main trade area of the city the other on the port.

Astynomoi Responsible for the maintaining of order in the city area. 5 in the city itself and 5 in the harbor. They were responsible for maintaining order back then. They would be chosen each year, even though this must not have been the case in Hellenistic cities, many of which took all of the institutions of Athens and used them. The majority of the criminals they would guard against were,
-1. Kleftai or Lopodytai (thieves)
-2. Andrapodistai (slavers), slave traders who would kidnap a free man and sell him off in a different city as slave. Plato himself suffered from this fate.
-3. Toichoruchoi (steal by digging through an adjacent building's wall)
-4. Balantiotomoi (pick pockets, or in an exact translation those who would cut off the purse's strap and run off with the purse)

Prosecution would be done in two ways. First "apagoge" when the criminal was caught in the act and then was taken to the Astynomos on duty and second, using "efegesis" meaning that the victim would accuse the criminal before the 10 Astynomoi who would then take measures to apprehend the criminal.

Siton: Responsible for the feeding of all visiting and important public figures of the city. (not troops)
+reputation

Possible career advancements (it is important to note that in both Hellenistic kingdoms and cities/koina, a citizen/member of the court would have both military, civilian, AND religious duties. Some of them were honorary, but a great many involved real work AND money for a person to be able to futhfil.

Sec.-> Primary.
Sitophylax ->Agoranomos
Keryx-> Agonothetes
Hypographeus->Grammateus
Logistes->Tamias

“Gymnasiarches” trait would be awarded with 2 legendary victories.



Then those who have attained those 5 Primary traits are eligible for the “Synkletos” a 110 member body which runs the city.
The following diagram is based on what we know of Akragas/Acrigento polis according to Italian historian Manganero.

Sitophylax ->Agoranomos->Synkletikos->Bouleutes (30% each year) OR (C2)->P
Keryx-> Agonothetes->Synkletikos->Bouleutes (30% each year) OR (C2)->P
Hypographeus->Grammateus->Synkletikos-> Bouleutes (30% each year) OR (C2)->P
Logistes->Tamias->Synkletikos->Bouleutes (30% each year) OR (C2)->P

C2=

• Eponymos Archon=The year is named after your name. Can happen as many times as random chance decides.
• Hierothytes=In charge of official sacrifices. A very honorary post

P= “Melos Proedrias” Member of the governing body collectively known as “The presidenship” whose first among equals would be the…

Prostatas=>(Protector)President of the Boule (has to be a member of the Boule to be able to be a president)… Faction’s ruler. I don’t know if we can setup a system like this, but it would be cool to have.

Here are the exact words of Manganero as he explains the polity of the Akragas/Acrigento (translated from Greek, Miltiades B. Hatzopoulos, Hellenism of Sicily under Roman rule 264-44 BCE)
Boule: 1/3 of the Synkletos (37/110members) + eponymos Archon+Hierothytes ( in charge of official sacrifices). The political year would be separated in six “dimenoi”(bimonthlies) in which the Dorian tribes comprising the Damos(populus) of Akragas/Acrigento (could be 3 Ionian tribes in Ionian cities) would succeed each other in the “Proedria” (presidentship) with its president called “Proastatas” (protector)

All those come from the Damos (which is in the beginning of the tree, and hence is not mentioned. Prior to their advancing though, there is a one chance of them becoming…
“Triakadarches” Highly honorable position, one of 4 in each city. Great prestige for that individual. No other advancement possible. Very rare, up to 4 per faction.
“Prytanes” Judge. Residing in the Prytaneion. The term lasts one year and it is decided upon by chance. In addition to all other duties. Rare
“Amphipolos of Zeus”. Very unlikely to be selected, but one of the most honorary positions there are within a city. Each of the 3 phylai (tribes-Archaic period leftover) that each city is comprised of offers its candidate and that candidate is elected for life by the Bouleuterion. No other advancement possible. The biggest morale bonus of all.
One per faction. Only when the previous “Amphipolos of Zeus” passes away can a new one be elected in his place. Can’t move from city.

I hope it doesn’t sound too complicated, but it is the closest verifiable and attested city-state government I found to our timeline. Honestly, it is very good if it can work because it combines everything, final years of Hellenic city states’ own rule and a great influence by Roman institutions, which was inevitable, even if the city itself might not be conquered by the Romans, yet.

The only insurmountable problem I see with the execution of what our sources tell us is the following. The above synthesis of known institutions of city states found in mostly epigraphs would be used to govern ONLY ONE CITY. For gameplay reasons we might use it for an entire factions, aka “The Greek cities” but it is important to understand and realize that in reality it would have been set for one city and one city alone.

--Donations—
Wealthy individuals would often award money in cities towards completing a public project, and then the city would award some honorary title to thank and award the individual.

Doretes – (certain amount)
Megas Doretes – (4 times the certain amount)
Stoa of – 40 times the certain amount, adds a “Stoa” building in the city. This imitates the Eumenes approach of making friends around the Aegean. He constructed “Stoai” in cities he wanted to win influence over and it worked. The Stoa of Attalos that has been re-constructed by the American archaeology dept. in Athens is one such example.
Megale stoa of (100 times that amount, imitating the largest Stoai built, much like imperial forums. In fact forums are directly descended from Hellenistic stoai. They are almost exactly the same, but with a different name.

---To be done---
Military career
-> 1st arm, Infantry (Makedonian system for ALL Hellenic factions based on what we know of Perseus Army prior to its destructions by the Romans-and according to Asklepiodotos)

1.Lochias, leading a Lochos of 16 men (in contrast Lokhos at the time of Alexander the Great was 500 men). It could be that there was a change between the time of Alexander and that of the Diadochi. Lochos

2.Tetrachos, leading 4 Lokhoi or a Tetrarchia of 64 men.

3.Speirarches, leading 4 Tetrarchia or 1 Speira of 256 men.

4.Chilliarchos, leading 4 Speirai or 1 Chilliarchia of 1004 men.
-The elite “Peltastai” and “Agema” were lead by
their own Chilliarchos and numbered 1000 each.
5.Strategos, leading 4 Chilliarchiai or 4096 men.

-Each speira had its own “hyperetes” who was in charge of all the ransacked materiel as well as could possibly be responsible for the wages being paid to the troops. There was also a “kurex” or “trumpeter”. In Chilliarchia (1000 men) level there was an “archihyperetes” in charge of all the “hyperetes”. On a higher level that of a Strategia (4096) there was a greammateus, who were responsible for gathering all the fines that any of the men who was sentenced for any wrongdoing, the disciplinary control of the NCO’s and the maintaining of accurate and uptodate draft catalogues.

è2nd arm, Cavalry (based on a papyrus account for Ptolemaic cavalry prior to Raphia at 217 BCE)


1.Dekanikos, leading a Dekania (10) horsemen.

2. Oulamagos, leading an oulamos (50) horsemen.

3. Lochagosippikou, leading a Lochos (100) horsemen.

4. Ilarchos, leading an Ile (250) horsemen.

5. Hipparchos, leading a Hipparchia (1000) horsemen in the Ptolemaic army. We know of 10 Hipparchies in the time of Raphia, and that 5000 horsemen fought in that battle for Ptolemies. It is a very plausible assumption that half of the total of all Ptolemaic horse at the time would either be in Egypt, or in the overseas administered cities as garisson duty.

è3rd War engineers (siege engines and catapults, officers and mechanics)
1.Katapeltaphetes (leader of a single oxybeles or lithobolos catapult element. In charge of the catapult and the 2-3 man crew each had. It took a lot of practice and mathematical knowledge to be able to perform successful shots and simple repairs)
2. Mechanikos (When more than simple repairs are needed, the Mechanikos is there along with all the necessary spare parts to repair the oxybeles or lithobolos catapeltes. That’s as far as your knowledge goes, however. You can’t construct the whole thing from scratch.)
3. Mechanopoios mathetes. (After being able to operate and repair the catapults, it is off to bigger and greater things, including constructing and manning the largest catapults from just wood and ropes, simple siege equipment and organizing the construction of wooden barricades to house campaigning troops)
4. Mechanopoios . (There is a limit to what practical expertise and basic geometry can take you. To really mature as an engineer, you would have to study all the papyri written by the great engineers, from Alexanders’ engineer Diadas of Pella’s “Mechanikon syggrama” to the latest works of Archimedes.
5. O Epi ton mechanon (You are in charge of all engineers and catapults of the state as your knowledge and experience tops all. Congratulations)

Religious “career”. Those mentioned could potentially be used by any temple complex that exists.

Mindmap of the civies.

-à A different political system would be in place for the Hellenistic kingdoms, changed as needed for each one. They will mostly be based on Ptolemaic kingdom, however, as this is the faction we know most about.

[Keravnos]

This will be updated and pictures will be posted and all. It is just that there was a difficult situation, as, so far as I know, there wasn't a city-state civilian "career" path of 216 BCE.

It is a WIP, by the way, so it will change.
In the mean time, feel free to comment.

[The Sloth]

Grammateus: Responsible for Record keeping. One of his prime duties would be to maintain correct records in the Metroon, the registry of all citizens, mainly those fit for war. The names of whoever was selected to fight would be posted in the Agora and failure to comply would mean death or exile. He would also be responsible for benefits awarded to those who the city chose for. (including free meals for the veterans of wars in the Prytaneion, free burial for those who couldn’t afford one, awarding dowry to the daughters of fallen warriors who would be without one and thus coulnd’t get married.)
+happiness

(It could require a building called Metroon=registry, if such is available)

We have taxation buildings, one of which is called Central Authority and Record Keeping, if that's any help.
Also, as far as I'm aware, traits can't give fixed amounts of money, happiness, experience for troops other than their own bodyguards or more turns before a besieged settlement surrenders. At least not without scripting

[Squid]

I'll just point out that doing anything with admirals (i.e. naval) is likely to not be feasible, as there is an almost certainty that as soon as an admiral gets any traits they can't be merged with another fleet.

[Keravnos]

Understood, but not all the citizens/members of the court of a Hellenistic kingdom would have remained in the fleet.

There were honorary admirals/captains and that of a sort. This is why I included them. They would only be called up in an emergency which never came.

My goal is to include all aspects of an "Archon" (Lord) in a hellenistic Polis/Kingdom, aka Religious/Civil/Military/Naval/Court (This in Kingdoms, aka in all the playable factions).

[Calvin]

It's certainly a very impressive map so far Keravnos. As Sloth said, some of the very specific bonuses you want can't be given through trait effects, but I don't think that is too much of a bother, we can find substitutes. It's certainly looking like a much more detailed system than the Roman one, and you've put ideas in my mind by mentioning the Religious career

[Keravnos]

Seleukid civic career...

Poliarches (city lord)-> Eparchos (county lord)-> Meridarchos ( Merida[satrapy subdivision] lord)-> Hyparchos satrapes (vice satrap) -> Satrapes (Satrap).

Military...
... (lower ranks to be added later) Hypostrategos (sub general)->Antistrategos (Vice General)->Strategos (General)->Epistrategos (strategos with added civic authorities, needed to control his command[especially on border regions or wherever needed]->Strategos Autokrator (Strategos with near limitless authority, hand appointed by the Baslieus)-> Archistrategos (The supreme ruler of all army in the Kingdom, second only to the Basileus)

[swhunter]

Excellent work Kera!
good seeing ya again!

[Keravnos]

Looking at Ptolemies at the moment. Imagine that they had different designations for lower cav. officers. It seems that just prior to the battle of Raphia between the Ptolemaioi and the Seleukidai a Thessalian reformed the Ptolemaic cav. (numbering 5.000 horses). For a comparison the Hetairoi that Alexander the great fought with were 1800 (of course he had many times that number in allies but the main cav. core of his realm were 1800 men).

[Keravnos]

-Just a test to see if Xmind is working as should-

[Keravnos]

Here is the structure of the Ptolemaic state, also to be used for Makedonia and Pergamon. In Seleukeia the Nome would be called "Satrapeia" but the rest would be as it is now...



Alexandreia was the capital of the state.
Nome was the prime division that the state had. Its capital would be called a "Metropolis" or Mother city.
Each Nome would be reduced to 3-5 Merides (Meris is the singular), each governed by a Meridarchos and named after him, for example "Meris Lysiou" would be the name for the Meris administered by Meridarchos Lysias. The city or "polis" which would be the administrative center of Meris would simply be called "Edra Meridarchou".
Lower down, we have the Polis subdivision of the Meris. Each Meris would have many cities in it, from 5 to no more than 10. Each Polis of those would serve as a center for the lowest subdivision of the Ptolemaic chain of administration, the Kome or "Head village". It goes without saying that there were probably more villages adjacent to it, but for the eyes of the Ptolemaic taxmen, admimistrators and soldiers, this is where the state ended.

An actual Nome that we know of, in present day Fayum, as depicted in "Hellenistic Egypt Monarchy, Society, Economy Culture" by Jean Bingen. 2007 edition


Each Meris had its own cities it administered. Each Meris would be named after the Meridarchos, who would be a very close confidant of the Basileus in Alexandreia to be awarded his own Meris. As we know that there were upwards of 70 Nome at Ptolemaic Egypt, the total number of Merides (plural of Meris) would be upwards of 200, with 250-300 more likely.

It is important to realise how the whole thing worked before more work can be done on it.

I tried to include everything from the above in the following pic...


The only thing left to include are the Epistrategiai. They would be special military commands, over the Nome level, which would combine two or more Nome (who would have as a military leader a Strategos) or not have any whatsoever. They would be set up in border or outside of Egypt domains, as the system in place was conceived for administrating the Neilotic regions in and around Egypt. The Epistrategos in charge of those domains would have total control over his domain, answering only to the Basileus in Alexandreia. The added powers were deemed necessary to counter the external threats that Egypt was facing at the time (Rebels in Thebais, Pirates in Cyprus and the Aigaion archipelagos, Seleukids in Syria Palestine and Kilikia, Makedones, Thraikians in Thrace, desert tribes in Kyrenaike)

[Calvin]

I'm going to be honest. I'm completely lost I'll keep reading it over again.

[Calvin]

Any progress? I'd dearly love to get coding as soon as possible but I'm too confused to know where to begin at the moment. If you could do a simple flowchart like

Trait 1 (List of necessary factors) -> Trait 2 (list of necessary factors) etc.

it would really help.

[tone]

Probably worth sending Keravnos a PM to get his attention.

[Calvin]

Ok, done.

[Keravnos]

Back on the saddle, at long last.

One problem I have encountered. It seems that the battle line of the infantry in 216 was different than it was at 330's at Alexanders' time.

This is a fact for Macedonia and Ptolemaic Egypt, not sure whether it could be used in other Hellenistic factions as well.

Will try to explain it in a diagram I am preparing. Will post ASAP.