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  1. #1
    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default How effective is Government Spending?

    Basically I got this idea from another thread where for some reason or other the New Deal came up and I started looking at the actual numbers and came to a few conclusions.

    In that thread I had gone to the fed and grabbed GDP data going back annually to 1929, right when the stock market collapsed. I collected data on investment, federal expenditures and consumption. I threw in the CPI index as a safe control variable to tie down the possiblity of other variables playing a role and came up with some interesting points. First and foremost federal expenditures were nearly a third as effective as private. And given that, federal expenditures tended to "crowd out" investment. These are not revelations by any means, (atleast to the noncommies on the board). What was interesting, again not a revelation, but the analysis of the effect of federal expenditures on consumption and then on investment. The ineffectiveness on consumption is not just consumption growth at a third the rate of investment, It was the double whammy. Those dollars the federal government spends not only produce less given opportunity lost BUT the more effective investment is penalized and lost on top of that.

    Alas there were some issues I had with my models. Number one was the problem that my sample size was a bit too small. Typically a good sample has about 200+ observations. Usually you can get away with less and still follow what's called a bell curve to maximize the accuracy, but it's just not a safe rule of thumb. So I had to find more data, which I did. Secondly, Princep of all people, pointed out the fact that my model did not include state expenditures, it may still be missing an important peice of the analysis. My reasoning for that was, the little amounts of spending that the states actually did as compared to the federal government, the overall trend or effect government expenditures had would still be maintained. But for the sake of argument I went ahead and added the values as well. Finally, the biggest issue that I had and I stated at the time was that a more sophisticated analysis could be done by importing time into the equation. Is it possible that government spending get's better over time? That government's quit being such ups? Well let's see... (If you don't want to read all the reasoning and look at all the pretty pictures, just feel free to jump to the conclusion, i'll outline it.

    First order of business is to explain the GDP and why consumption matters. We all know GDP means how much an economy makes. It's like Uncle Sam's income. The US GDP is/ was 14 trillion, meaning our annual salary is producing 14 trillion USD. Now in stats we have many statistical problems that can arise. For one the variable may really be wrong and absolutely and utterly uncorrelated even though it displays the value and sign you were looking for. In other cases, a section of variables in and of themselves may work great but together they are useless. And most important of all is what's called collinearity. Variables are supposed to be correlated, that's the whole point of the analysis is to measure that correlation, but sometimes variables can not only be correlated, but directly tied into another variable. For example the equation for GDP is GDP= investment + consumption + government expenditures + net exports. You CAN NOT measure the correlation between GDP and consumption because consumption is a component of GDP. However, you can measure the correlation between Government expenditures and consumption. Consumption by itself is the most important variable in the GDP equation. See exhibit A...



    The fed's goal when it comes to "fixing" an economy is to get consumption up. Number one the higher consumption is, expecially in a diversified economy the better off the people are. And number two, it's so fricken large. A 2% increase dwarfs a 2% increase in net exports, government expenditures and investment, or atleast it did dwarf government.

    So What I have gone on to do is really measure the effect of government spending/ investment versus private investment. Federal means federal level investment and expenditures, investment means private investment expenditures, and state's means state and local expenditures and investment. Government expenditures represents the sum of state and local AND Federal. All values have been controlled for inflation, seasonally adjusted and finally are in billions. All data comes from the St. Louis Fed Reserve Data Base and stretches quarterly from 1949 to 2008. First up, the true effect of investment and government expenditures on consumption...



    So what does this tell us? Much the sam as my first study did in another thread, private investment is more effective than government expenditures and investment, about 1.5 times as effective. Going further I broke down the expenditures, here's for you government fans, and actually found that State and local expenditures are MORE effective than private. They are virtually identical, but the State tends to just a bit edge out the private competition. Impressive I must say, but then I began thinking. What about it that makes the state as effective if not more than investment and much more effective than at the federal level? Part of it probably has to do with economies of scale. This notion that their is an optimal size for an entity to be effective. If you're too small you aint worth , but if you're too large you are a bumbling fool. Maybe the states have that to their advantage? What you do have to keep in mind however, is that there are fifty states with vastly differeing spending habits. There is one federal government with one spending habit. What we do know from this is that the average state dollar versus the average bumbling federal dollar is spent more wisely. And interestingly enough, the one element that both investment and state governments maintain is active competition.



    The most interesting point that I first stumbled across, well not really stumbled per se... It's that government spending has a two fold effect. If more dollars are being spent by the federal government, those are dollars that the more effective private investment can't spend. At the same time, those dollars that the federal government are actively diminshing the total spending amount of private investment. Look at the graphs above, for every billion dollars the federal government spends, that's diminshing the ability of the private sector to spend by 485 million. That's a lost 1.11 billion dollars in what consumption could have done. Add to the lost 111 million when comparing private investment and federal expenditures, we're talking federal government losing us 1.2 billion for every billion they spend. And of course we just happened to run up a 7 trillion or so deficit. Ouch!

    So to really give you guys an illustrated picture of how much more effective private investment is versus government investmetn and expenditures, I've gone ahead and generated a graph. I've taken the percentage change in consumpton generated solely by federal, state and local expenditures and investment versus pirvate expenditures and investment.



    Like I mentioned, I've gone ahead and run the models above, taken the values and created two more sets of data, one incorporating the pure growth rates of consumption with respect to investment and the other with respect to government. The results are pretty convincing. The values while extremely variable (for the math geeks I ran a moving average over 8 intervals, in this case two years) still show that the average return on investment to consumption growth rates is definitely higher than government. For any of the economist, the negative slope of the trend lines actually illustrate the production function and it's diminihing return.

    And now to the final part of the analysis, incorporating time. Is what I did above "allowed" given the time nature of the data? Of course it is. It's actually called a right censored OLS. OLS is probably the most effective way to analyze period. It's simple quick and pretty accurate and gives more than adequate answers. However, there are other much more advanced and sophisticated means of analysis, but they all tend to carry with them a higher chance of error. Plus their level of difficulty and "art" required to truly analyze a given problem requires much more talent from the individual. Luckily I have that talent. This model incorporates time. For instance it tells you whether federal expenditures were effective yesterday or today. It's not always the case that the world is static, sometimes elements take a bit of time to react and cause change.



    Just a quick warning, these values are not understood the way the other models were because it's time series and I've differenced the values for stochastic reasons. It's more of predictive power indicators versus how much. Think of it ordinal versus cardinal. What we see here is that the return on investment for consumption is not immediate. It's lagged one year according to the yellow graph. But... federal spending is actually immediate, it's spot on. What's more, and I've bolded the important parts, the P value (P>T), displays the significance of the federal expenditures, and it's high enough to be irrelevent. Over time, federal expenditures is not only weak, it probably plays no role at all.

    With the other graph, maroon, we see the effects of federal expenditures on investment. And you can see it's negative. Increasing federal expenditures will result in a falling level of investment, and it's VERY significant.

    What we can take from the final model is that federal expenditures over the course of 70 some odd years really doesn;t effect consumption, but it does effect investment, the real driver of consumption, negatively.

    CONCLUSION:

    If you made it this far, congratulations. I'm impressed. When it's all said and done what we can take from this, from data supplied by the federal reserve is that there is plenty of evidence that private investment, the free market if you will, is more effective than the public. We as individuals know where to put our money versus any buearcracy. The states may spend their dollars better than the federal government, but the states like the private investment are also subjected to competitive forces. And it just may be, that this is a way to increase the effectiveness of federal spending. In terms of world trade, ease of travel and low barriers internationally, if people can move freely and effect the choices by something as big and bumbling as the government, maybe the government will make better choices. Inject it with a dosage of freemarket principles, competition. But until then, what we know is that the federal governemnt, and government expenditures are less effective.

    edit: I probably should have posted this in the academy
    Last edited by JP226; March 02, 2009 at 04:44 PM.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: How effective is Government Spending?

    Yes, free market works 99% of the time BUT there needs something to keep in check. That is where government comes in.
    Sometimes both sides are wrong. Unfortunately most people do not understand this and argue endlessly.

  3. #3

    Default Re: How effective is Government Spending?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Prince View Post
    Yes, free market works 99% of the time BUT there needs something to keep in check. That is where government comes in.
    He's not talking about regulation, he's talking about deficit spending to boost the economy. In these graphs and timelines, it pretty much proves that government spending has little effect on consumption. Investment is what leads to consumption.

    In other words, this is proof that Obama's economic recovery plans will not work. They may give us a little boost, but that's it. It won't be enough to pull us out of the recession. We've really got no choice but to just the let bad money bleed itself out.
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    Default Re: How effective is Government Spending?

    Yep because we all know that the good old market forces will get us out of any ditch/grave which itself has caused. Do its best at keeping jobs for working people and keep bonuses and holiday trips away from CEOs gaining from these tough economic times.

    Formerly Tiberias

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    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: How effective is Government Spending?

    Yep because we all know that the good old market forces will get us out of any ditch/grave which itself has caused. Do its best at keeping jobs for working people and keep bonuses and holiday trips away from CEOs gaining from these tough economic times.
    So you don't like consumers having more money in their pockets? Seems a bit cruel.
    Last edited by JP226; March 02, 2009 at 06:31 PM.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

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    Problem Sleuth's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: How effective is Government Spending?

    Interesting, and it gives me what's probably a pretty bad idea. What if you were to hypothetically give Congressmen, the President, and possibly other federal officials a salary based on a combination of economic growth and how much the government spends. They want to see economic growth, as it raises their salaries. However, more government spending decreases their salaries. Thus, it'll be in their self-interest to try to enact economic measures that are actually useful. Of course, as you said, it'll still probably be less efficient due to its size, but it's an idea at least. It also wouldn't be much help for non-economic issues. Maybe if you threw other factors in there... Meh. Probably wouldn't work.

    Anyway, back on topic, that was enlightening, and I appreciate you taking the time to research that and then to share it with us. +rep
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    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: How effective is Government Spending?

    The problem with the Salary issue is that even though it's alot of money to most people, congressional/ legislative salaries in general just aren't all that high to mean one thing or the other. Maybe in Obama's case making 400k a year is alot of money. But to some senators especially who are worth millions upon millions, the money doesn't matter all taht much. Even in the President's case, the real money comes after the time in office from speaking engagements, investments, memoirs etc etc. If you were able to setup some sort of incentive scheme based on Salary, you'd have to increase the salary by quite a bit of money.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

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    Problem Sleuth's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: How effective is Government Spending?

    Quote Originally Posted by JP226 View Post
    The problem with the Salary issue is that even though it's alot of money to most people, congressional/ legislative salaries in general just aren't all that high to mean one thing or the other. Maybe in Obama's case making 400k a year is alot of money. But to some senators especially who are worth millions upon millions, the money doesn't matter all taht much. Even in the President's case, the real money comes after the time in office from speaking engagements, investments, memoirs etc etc. If you were able to setup some sort of incentive scheme based on Salary, you'd have to increase the salary by quite a bit of money.
    Very true. If we give them salaries equivalent to, say, 2,000,000 a year for 'average' succeess, we're going to end up spending nearly a billion dollars in their salaries alone. Given, 2,000,000 per Congressman is about 0.025% of the projected budget for 2010. Still, it's not a small amount of money, and even 2,000,000 probably wouldn't be enough.
    Armed with your TOMMY GUN, you are one hard boiled lug. Nobody mess with this tough guy, see?

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    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: How effective is Government Spending?

    Very true. If we give them salaries equivalent to, say, 2,000,000 a year for 'average' succeess, we're going to end up spending nearly a billion dollars in their salaries alone. Given, 2,000,000 per Congressman is about 0.025% of the projected budget for 2010. Still, it's not a small amount of money, and even 2,000,000 probably wouldn't be enough.
    Right. I think the best way to get them to "govern correctly" is things like more open borders, free trade, lower market barriers etc etc. Not that i'm a fan of open borders with Mexico by any means, they drain alot of money out of the US economy, that's just the nature of a nation like the US and one like Mexico existing next to each other with a large expansive border. However, if like economies, the US and Western Europe had more open borders you can bet Government's will be more pushed to actually listen to the constituents and prevent things like massive spending projects and senseless economic legislation.

    As I pointed out, states are incredibly more efficient at spending than the federal government. Part of the reason is probably because of smaller more manageable economies, but states face alot of competition among each other to keep people and businesses within their own borders. I'm not justifying outrageous state spending by any means, just look at California. What I am saying is that the average dollar spent thanks to the more stable states with good spending habits far and away do a better job. And maybe that's a recipe for the rest of the west atleast.
    Last edited by JP226; March 02, 2009 at 08:10 PM.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

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    Problem Sleuth's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: How effective is Government Spending?

    Quote Originally Posted by JP226 View Post
    Right. I think the best way to get them to "govern correctly" is things like more open borders, free trade, lower market barriers etc etc. Not that i'm a fan of open borders with Mexico by any means, they drain alot of money out of the US economy, that's just the nature of a nation like the US and one like Mexico existing next to each other with a large expansive border. However, if like economies, the US and Western Europe had more open borders you can bet Government's will be more pushed to actually listen to the constituents and prevent things like massive spending projects and senseless economic legislation.
    How so? It seems like it would increase the degree to which the governments collaborate when planning these things out, but I don't see how it would make them listen to the people more.
    Armed with your TOMMY GUN, you are one hard boiled lug. Nobody mess with this tough guy, see?

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    Default Re: How effective is Government Spending?

    Good question. I'd like to ask Obama that myself.

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    Zephyrus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: How effective is Government Spending?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quadratus View Post
    Good question. I'd like to ask Obama that myself.
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    Default Re: How effective is Government Spending?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyrus View Post
    You better not send him HIV while you do it!
    LOL






    Now I wouldn't even do that.

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    vizi's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: How effective is Government Spending?

    Government spending is very effective. They always spend it all.

  15. #15

    Default Re: How effective is Government Spending?

    Glad someone is an economist and does his research

    I think ardent Obama supporters should read this, if they are not skeptical already from the market.

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    Default Re: How effective is Government Spending?

    So we must regulate the deregulation.
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    Too often talked of, but too little known.

    -Jonathan Swift

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    Default Re: How effective is Government Spending?

    laissez faire would work better..

    The government shouldn't even mess w/ the markets..

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    Default Re: How effective is Government Spending?

    So basically the bottom line is if government truly wanted an economic stimulus plan it would be a plan based on encouragement of investment from private sector, providing protection to actual citizens with unemployment benefits, assisting with mortage refinacing (I support these two because they actually help people) and not say 8 billion to build a high speed rail in California. Dont get me wrong high speed rail is nice and all but its an economic stimulus bill, that is its stated goal not hey lets fund people's pet projects.

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    Default Re: How effective is Government Spending?

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig View Post
    So basically the bottom line is if government truly wanted an economic stimulus plan it would be a plan based on encouragement of investment from private sector, providing protection to actual citizens with unemployment benefits, assisting with mortage refinacing (I support these two because they actually help people) and not say 8 billion to build a high speed rail in California. Dont get me wrong high speed rail is nice and all but its an economic stimulus bill, that is its stated goal not hey lets fund people's pet projects.
    Yes that's pretty much the bottom line....

  20. #20

    Default Re: How effective is Government Spending?

    as the saying goes : if you give one dollar to the govt, its worth one dollar, if you put one dollar in the economy its worth 10. Bureaucracies have never been able to spend money with any kind of effectiveness. You give them a lump sum of money and they either spend it on pet projects, give it to their supporter or just plain waste it. This is evident at the end of the fiscal year when agencies go and blow what cash they have left on new cars and such for everyone so that they can get the same budget next year, instead of giving the surplus back to the citizens...yeesh, dont know what its so hard to understand. If you give people more money back, they only have the option to spend it on consumption, which means it goes directly into the economy and that is what creates jobs. If you give it to the govt, your likely to only see a fraction of it go into the economy, more money lines greedy corperate pockets when you give it to the govt, then it does via private industry, we can see this perfectly clear with the constant bailouts.

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