Eradicating Gangs from the United States

[Osceola]

Don't know how to start this, so I'll just write.

A culture that has, within the last 20 years, grown up about "understanding" street gangs and pitying them, has had some very undesireable side effects. Among these is the seemingly apathetic and in some cases completely accepting attitude, towards even the most gut-retchingly disturbing crimes, like beheaded bodies found in dumpsters, so long as it's known this crime was committed by a gang, and not a serial killer.

This phenomenon has grown to define our urban landscape, it's now becoming a part of our culture, and it's frankly disgusting.

We have been so obsessed, this decade, with foreign terrorism, that we seem to have been completely complacent with this scourge, only now, when a scourge like this is threatening to topple the government of one of our border nations, do people seem to be waking up, and .. willing to do what?

Perhaps my greatest problem with gun control in this country, is not that I believe societies where arms are controlled are wrong.. indeed I don't, you'd be surprised to hear it. I see what mainland Europe is like, and I envy you, I envy Japan, I envy China, the whole lot of it.

My problem is that no matter what your politics on guns are,.. how on earth is it going to do a goddamn thing? I recently saw a movie called Gomorra, about the Neapolitan Mafia, the Camorra, in Italy, a country with heavily strict gun control, an EU member, 1 person is killed on average every 3 days in Naples alone, clearly gun control did absolutely nothing for Naples at least.

The much wanted Assault Weapons Ban (on this forum at least).. you all want it for ideaoligcal reasons, yes , fine and dandy, your idea of a civilised society is a disarmed one.. but regardless your politics, the PROBLEM IS ALREADY HERE AND WILL REMAIN, NO MATTER WHAT GUN CONTROL YOU EMPLACE.

We had the AWB for 10 years, in the 90s and early 2000's.. did gang violence go down? Maybe.. but the fact is, it was still there, and at a ridiculous rate. This country saw the rise of MS-13 the most powerful and most dangerous street gang in the world, headed by ex-El Salvadoran military, for s sakes.

They will continue to kill each other and other people with anything and everything. I'm from central FL, not a particularly dangerous part (but my definition of dangerous might not agree with yours, it was simply where I grew up) and one of the most popular weapons of Latino gang members? 12 dollars machetes from home depot that they'd strap to their leg and hide under their jeans. They kill using arson, they kill using the goddamn baseball bat, they kill and maim using boxcutters, straight razours and knives, .. you can't control that with a bloody economic measure, which is what banning the sale of a gun is.

We both lose, regardless of our politics, .. the most pro-gun person here, your side loses as well. Why? Because not every citizen chooses to arm himself, because he only kills one of these animals when one messes with him. Because armed citizens don't travel around in packs, and actively hunt these pieces of ****. And the most anti-gun person here? Because these goddamn gangs are absolutely huge, and they don't even need guns. Because they already have hundreds of thousands of illegally owned guns, and probably hidden well. Because they can still buy illegal weapons, illegally, as they already do, because fully automatic MAC-10's are not available to civilians.

No matter what laws you revoke, or what laws you enact, so long as they attack the symptoms and not the very presence of this goddamn scourge, they will not go away, they will get bigger, and they will continue to oppress the people of this nation.

And they are oppressing this nation. And they are huge.. think about it, how many gangs can you name, and how many terrorist organisations can you name?

Lets go by locale, in LOS ANGELES alone, we have the already legendary Bloods and Crips, heroised by some , those some completely willing to over look the fact that both organisations not only brutalise each other, but have, do, and will continue to, rob, rape, torture, murder, extort everything from CHILDREN, to completely random passers by.

You have the Avenues who made headlines in 1995 when they murdered a 3 year old boy, because the car he was riding in with his parents happened to turn into "their" alley. You have the 18th Street and MS-13 both at war with eachother constantly, and if thats not enough you have the Nortenos and Surenos, also at war with eachother. These are just the major ones, in one city alone there are 3 ing wars going on simultaneously, between 9 different combatants. And we allow this?

Thats not to mention all the other 'legends' the Vice Lords in Chicago who at one point conspired with the ing Libyan dictator to poison Chicago's water supply, what is clearly a ing terrorist attack, yet this group is not labelled and treated as one.. why? In the same city theres the Latin Kings and the Gangster Disciples, .. ing murderers, the lot of them.

And thats leaving out plenty I'm sure, the ones in Louisiana, New York, hell even in Arkansas. It is a national epidemic that has been left to grow and cement itself in both our culture and our lives, for over 20 years now.

Does prison work? No! They look on it as an honour, and they form their ing gangs in there. Does police involvement help? How can you say it has? They talk about rehabilitating these ing ers as if their a bunch of teenage kids in a fad. They aren't. Most of them are legal adults, and MS-13 especially has proven to use these legal adults have no moral qualms about torturing, murdering and raping, wantonly.

.. They have formed nations, within nations. How the hell is their banding together in such huge numbers and committing such frequent atrocities with the aim of being able to more successfully circumvent our laws, any different from when the Confederates banded together to successfully circumvent our anti-slavery and tariff laws?

These "nations" lay claims to territory that belongs to the state and the public, and enforce their claims on it by murdering each other and innocents, is this not a declaration of war and secession against the government which owns this land?

They enforce their own taxes on the populace of a nation, who owe no taxes but to the government if this nation, by doing this as an organisation, then technically would this not be attempting to usurp our government's authority at taxation? Was this country not born out of a war fought over taxation without representation?

As we speak in California, the Latino gangs have declared an open and virulently conspicuous war of ethnic cleansing, on the black gangs, with the stated goal of driving them out of the areas they want to control, this is an open declaration of a guerrilla war of conquest, in our borders. To Brits, how does that make them any different from the IRA?

My ending statement? These ing pussies who think their hard because they band together in little groups, are by definition, no different from not only just domestic terrorists, but clearly secessionists as well. They are guilty of ing treason, they even CALL themselves nations, be it "Peoples Nation", "Folk Nation" "Gangster Disciple Nation", and "United Blood Nation."

This is not a question of Posse Comitatus, if we already fought one civil war. This is a question of organised groups of individuals declaring open war on the government of the nation they live in.. so..

If we are not going to legalise drugs and to a smaller extent prostitution, and thus end the situation that allows these s to thrive, why the hell aren't we mobilising the National Guard, sworn to defend against all enemies foreign and domestic, and engaging these cock******* in open, direct warfare, and physically eradicating them from our landscape? They are a present, and self declared enemy with goals of usurping our jurisdiction, goals they pursue and succeed at every day.

That in my opinion, is how to end this . Ideally, we legalise, tax and regulate the drug trade so as to remove the market that funds them, prostitution, as well I should think.

Then we send in our National Guard and destroy them, completely. Let it be known we wont stand for miniature regimes, in side our states.

Only way I see this problem ever going away. And I've seen enough of it first hand, so it's not like I'm speaking from an armchair here.

[Zephyrus]

All gangs should be destroyed as brutally and as quickly as possible. The only gang the us needs is the government! :

[OccamR]

Why don't you go down and reveal the reason we have gangs? Drugs. There's a market for them, and they're just filling a need. So what if recently minorities have been the ones in gangs, they generally are since they are on lower end of the economical spectrum. Get rid of the regulations on drugs and you'll have eradication. No need for blood.

[Zephyrus]

Why don't you go down and reveal the reason we have gangs? Drugs. There's a market for them, and they're just filling a need. So what if recently minorities have been the ones in gangs, they generally are since they are on lower end of the economical spectrum. Get rid of the regulations on drugs and you'll have eradication. No need for blood.

Some drugs you up physically as well as mentally. Even though murder happens, should we legalize it and hope that will stem the problem?

People dependent on such things is what causes the demand in the first place. Its a psychological and social issue.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

Why don't you go down and reveal the reason we have gangs? Drugs. There's a market for them, and they're just filling a need. So what if recently minorities have been the ones in gangs, they generally are since they are on lower end of the economical spectrum. Get rid of the regulations on drugs and you'll have eradication. No need for blood.

Gangs won't sit by and see their source of income disappear without trying to diversify or stop it.

[Captain Jin]

Gangs existed before drugs became prevalent. Because gangs originally formed as a matter of people of certain races protecting themselves and their neighborhoods in the days of greater racism. Now things are different, and drugs essentially has become a primary factor behind people choosing the 'gangsta life' because it's a lot easier to sling on the street corner and make good money then it is to go to school and succeed lawfully.

The only way you can eradicate the gangs is by eradicating the people in them and their neighborhoods and then rebuilding the entire place under a heavily supervised military government that slowly transitions to local authorities.

I'm talking about going in, annihilating the place and leveling it. Detaining people suspected of participating in these gangs and holding them without cause if need be etc. Like really nasty stuff. Think Iraq on steroids really. A lot of nasty stuff would have to go down. Enforced curfews, out after such and such time you can be engaged. Aggressive rooting out of ring leaders and drug circles. Violent and unremitting hunts on gang members. After the initial phases of killing the more hardcore gang members, you offer amnesty and a chance to change their ways to the less than hardcore.

My way would be entirely inhumane, against most people's sense of what is right. Even my own. It would really be one of those getting down and dirty, and most parties involved wouldn't be too happy about what they were doing.

[OccamR]

Captain Jin: Why would you need to do these things? Economics 101, black markets form when people's needs and wants aren't met. Give them what they need and want and gangs will just become groups of people without a cause.

[Maverick]

Gangs existed before drugs became prevalent. Because gangs originally formed as a matter of people of certain races protecting themselves and their neighborhoods in the days of greater racism.

For a price, of course. .

Now things are different, and drugs essentially has become a primary factor behind people choosing the 'gangsta life' because it's a lot easier to sling on the street corner and make good money then it is to go to school and succeed lawfully.

Damn right, those inner-city schools...

The only way you can eradicate the gangs is by eradicating the people in them and their neighborhoods and then rebuilding the entire place under a heavily supervised military government that slowly transitions to local authorities.

I'm talking about going in, annihilating the place and leveling it. Detaining people suspected of participating in these gangs and holding them without cause if need be etc. Like really nasty stuff. Think Iraq on steroids really. A lot of nasty stuff would have to go down. Enforced curfews, out after such and such time you can be engaged. Aggressive rooting out of ring leaders and drug circles. Violent and unremitting hunts on gang members. After the initial phases of killing the more hardcore gang members, you offer amnesty and a chance to change their ways to the less than hardcore.

My way would be entirely inhumane, against most people's sense of what is right. Even my own. It would really be one of those getting down and dirty, and most parties involved wouldn't be too happy about what they were doing.

Not in America man.

First I would make domestic gangs a threat to national security in order to get one or more of the intelligence agencies involved, tap into that fat national security budget and take advantage of the patriot act. Federal agents working with local law enforcement would then be able to use the most highly advanced surveillance technology available to build cases against suspected high level drug traffickers.

That's the easy part.

The difficulty as in any guerrilla type conflict is winning over the hearts and minds of the citizens. There are good people living in those housing projects and bad neighborhoods who want some sense of security for their families but they have been neglected for so long they have lost all faith in their government. We need informants to build cases and the only way to earn the trust of the community is to do right by them from the beat cops right up the chain of command. I'm sure that sounds like an oversimplification but you can't police people 24/7 as you suggested, ask any veteran cop informants make cases.

Lets go by locale, in LOS ANGELES alone, we have the already legendary Bloods and Crips, heroised by some , those some completely willing to over look the fact that both organisations not only brutalise each other, but have, do, and will continue to, rob, rape, torture, murder, extort everything from CHILDREN, to completely random passers by.

Most are completely willing to overlook the fact, so long as they stay out of middle-class neighborhoods.

And that's the heart of the problem, if we don't give a the politicians definitely won't give a . And that's been the dynamic for so long that it's going to take a hell of a long time to win back those communities, if ever.

[Captain Jin]

Not in America man.

First I would make domestic gangs a threat to national security in order to get one or more of the intelligence agencies involved, tap into that fat national security budget and take advantage of the patriot act. Federal agents working with local law enforcement would then be able to use the most highly advanced surveillance technology available to build cases against suspected high level drug traffickers.

That's the easy part.

The difficulty as in any guerrilla type conflict is winning over the hearts and minds of the citizens. There are good people living in those housing projects and bad neighborhoods who want some sense of security for their families but they have been neglected for so long they have lost all faith in their government. We need informants to build cases and the only way to earn the trust of the community is to do right by them from the beat cops right up the chain of command. I'm sure that sounds like an oversimplification but you can't police people 24/7 as you suggested, ask any veteran cop informants make cases.

I completely agree with you. My dad was a cop for 30 years and you're right, you can't police the streets, every section of every major city 24/7. The point is of course to build that trust back up in the local community. There are indeed good people from those projects. The problem is separating them, and of course building the necessary trust between the government and the people to get them to help us. You also have to adequately protect them from reprisals by gang members who believe they are helping us.

You can get pretty close to a constant presence on the streets though with martial law and the military. It's similar to disrupting insurgent activity. If you have troops in force walking the streets, how hard is it to sling crack on the street corner. If LAPD patrols the worst neighborhoods with 25 cars for example, that's not enough to saturate the area with their presence. So if a cop car drives by dealers can hide from the car, wait for it to pass then hop back out and finish their deal cause they know another car won't be by for a while. With a martial law sort of atmosphere there are constant patrols, random patrols, satellite patrols etc. You have mounted patrols and foot patrols. The military brings in engineers to support and help rebuild some places like parks and schools and that sort to establish rapport with the people.

Meanwhile investigative teams headed by police, federal agents, and intelligence within the military are working sources and building cases against the more prominent/violent gangs. But when that evidence is gathered you hit them hard and you punish them harder.

The problem with it all is that the justice system in the US is too soft. For most of these guys they go to prison, they get out, and they re-offend. Or they just make contacts and learn more skills to break the law in prison.

These aren't really realistic approaches. We won't ever see martial law declared, we won't see agencies like the CIA or NSA participate in gathering intelligence for police departments or operating domestically for that matter (at least not in this manner) and we won't see tougher laws that punish people more severely.

What we will see, and what I think is already happening, and what needs to happen, is that police are going to have to starting becoming more para-military in nature in a lot of these major urban centers with high crimes. Methods of policing have to be radically different from LA to small towns of America. The threat is different, so must the laws and ways to fight the threat, but that's hard to understand for many.

[vizi]

Why do people hate on gangs? They just want to belong to something bigger than themselves. Something that can protect themselves.

[RollingWave]

A few things that would help.

a. ban guns : limiting the damage they could do.

b. do a better job against drugs.

c. generally improving the condition of the communities that tend to spawn such gangs.

It's not going to ever completely go away, but there are certainly difference between say.. Japan's organized gang problems and the US' which is unthinkablly bad for a country so developed and stable.

[Gelgoog]

A few things that would help.

a. ban guns : limiting the damage they could do.

b. do a better job against drugs.

c. generally improving the condition of the communities that tend to spawn such gangs.

It's not going to ever completely go away, but there are certainly difference between say.. Japan's organized gang problems and the US' which is unthinkablly bad for a country so developed and stable.

A) brilliant, because those on the fringe of society who commit felonies daily and operate within the black market will suddenly stop acquiring guns, because the govt says they are not allowed to. How well has that worked out for banned drugs like crack, heroin, pcp, etc....

B) better as in fight it better or stop fighting it. that answer is just as vague as saying...make the economy better.....ok???

C) how do you go about that? Crime drives away businesses and economic opportunities, which is why these areas never improve. When crack moves in, walmart moves out. It is sometimes called white flight. Throwing welfare dollars into the area or building low cost housing is not the answer. its a pretty simple equation.

area is doing fine...crime comes in.... businesses start to leave....those left in the community have no jobs nearby so they either leave or turn to making money illegally.

[Captain Arrrgh!]

A few things that would won't help.

a. ban guns : limiting the damage they could do.

For the umpteenth time, criminals don't acquire their guns legally. The only thing this will do is disarm honest citizens.

b. do a better job against drugs.

Would you people wake up, stop being so simplistic, and understand that many high rollers, including those in government, make money in drugs.

generally improving the condition of the communities that tend to spawn such gangs.

Spell it out, then. How are you going to do it? Already a disprportionate amount ouf our taxes gets dumped into wellfare projects.

It's not going to ever completely go away, but there are certainly difference between say.. Japan's organized gang problems and the US' which is unthinkablly bad for a country so developed and stable.

Just like someone comparing Africa to the US in another thread, it's silly to compare us with Japan.
The yakuza is so intertwined with Japanese business and politics it's disgusting. In the 80's and early 90's alone the Yamaguchi Gumi hauled in more revenue than many middle tier business. After the Kobe earthquake, the most visible group aiding in the aftermath were yakuza. The yakuza culture is also at war with itself, balancing the razor's edge of semi-dubious business in what is known as the 'mizu shobai', the 'water trade' of nightclub and hooking, and dealing in narcotics. They also can't reconcile their heavy nationalist movements in some branches with other districts that recruit from those of Korean heritage. You can't compare North American street gangs with the Yakuza, just as you can't compare the US to Japan.
There's nothing noble or nationalistic about North American gangs, nor do they uphold any cultural legacy as the yakuza claim to do. They're scum, and should be eradicated.

[JustShoveJayOhBe]

For the umpteenth time, criminals don't acquire their guns legally. The only thing this will do is disarm honest citizens.


Would you people wake up, stop being so simplistic, and understand that many high rollers, including those in government, make money in drugs.


Spell it out, then. How are you going to do it? Already a disprportionate amount ouf our taxes gets dumped into wellfare projects.


Just like someone comparing Africa to the US in another thread, it's silly to compare us with Japan.
The yakuza is so intertwined with Japanese business and politics it's disgusting. In the 80's and early 90's alone the Yamaguchi Gumi hauled in more revenue than many middle tier business. After the Kobe earthquake, the most visible group aiding in the aftermath were yakuza. The yakuza culture is also at war with itself, balancing the razor's edge of semi-dubious business in what is known as the 'mizu shobai', the 'water trade' of nightclub and hooking, and dealing in narcotics. They also can't reconcile their heavy nationalist movements in some branches with other districts that recruit from those of Korean heritage. You can't compare North American street gangs with the Yakuza, just as you can't compare the US to Japan.
There's nothing noble or nationalistic about North American gangs, nor do they uphold any cultural legacy as the yakuza claim to do. They're scum, and should be eradicated.

Then why don't you go irradicate them and find out who society deems the real criminal?

"There's nothing noble or nationalistic about North American gangs, nor do they uphold any cultural legacy as the yakuza claim to do."

The Hell's Angels commit acts of domestic terrorism and smuggle drugs, and yet they also rescue children on Amber Alert and escort soldier's funeral processions.

The Green Mountain Boys were a gang, the Sons of Liberty were a gang...

Come on man, don't paint a broad brush stroke over an entire subject area. I say again: gang crime is merely a variable of a great web of social ecology. You can't "irradicate" it anymore than you can irradicate pollen from the air.
:

[Thanatos]

1) Treat the gang problem like a genuine military threat, which in some cases, like MS-13, might as well be, for all intents and purposes.
2) Move in National Guard.
3) Eliminate threat.
4) Institute martial law, and improve the place from thereon.

[Kiljan Arslan]

1) Treat the gang problem like a genuine military threat, which in some cases, like MS-13, might as well be, for all intents and purposes.
2) Move in National Guard.
3) Eliminate threat.
4) Institute martial law, and improve the place from thereon.

The sad thing is I think you might be right about what needs to be done.

[spartan117]

1) Treat the gang problem like a genuine military threat, which in some cases, like MS-13, might as well be, for all intents and purposes.
2) Move in National Guard.
3) Eliminate threat.
4) Institute martial law, and improve the place from thereon.

While I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment, I will only remind supporters of such a plan....With what money? The economy is in shambles.

Printing money and borrowing money now for a war against gangs? Please....

[Thanatos]

While I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment, I will only remind supporters of such a plan....With what money? The economy is in shambles.

Printing money and borrowing money now for a war against gangs? Please....

We're already spending money on them to be overseas, when they should be here. It's the same money being spent, but finally on ourselves, and not on other nations.

[OccamR]

While I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment, I will only remind supporters of such a plan....With what money? The economy is in shambles.

Printing money and borrowing money now for a war against gangs? Please....

It's obvious, just legalize drugs. Imagine what kind of money we'd be able to gain from legalization and the lives saved from it's regulation. Seriously, if you legalize, it's a win-win, especially in the effort to undermine gangs. There is no doubt that without drugs, gang activity would drastically minimize.

[the_mango55]

It's obvious, just legalize drugs. Imagine what kind of money we'd be able to gain from legalization and the lives saved from it's regulation. Seriously, if you legalize, it's a win-win, especially in the effort to undermine gangs. There is no doubt that without drugs, gang activity would drastically minimize.

The only drug that would ever, or should eve, be legalized are Marijuana, maybe ecstasy, perhaps LSD.

Legalizing those wouldn't do anything to fight gangs.