Tercio Pike + Shot

[dynamo]

Just finishing up a Spanish Campaign, and I noticed some problems with their late-period units. Their pikemen, which supposedly dominated 1500s warfare, kinda suck. They just switch to their sword when the get attacked and get killed, unlike the old phanalaxes of Rome. I did some custom battles and found that most late spear-wall units also have this problem. So whats the point of late game units if they aren't as good as dismounted knights from 200 years ago? Or is there some special trick to using pikes and halberds that I don't know about?

[eggthief]

They're gimped, a mistake by CA. They can be modified to always use their main weapon, this will however make them way to powerful.

[Pink Beard]

They're gimped, a mistake by CA. They can be modified to always use their main weapon, this will however make them way to powerful.

Nah just lower their defence (to 1-2) while your at it and you just made them balanced. Strong in the attack but VERY susceptible to musket/arrow fire, as well as charges in the back.
That's how mods do it and it works fine

[dynamo]

Nah just lower their defence (to 1-2) while your at it and you just made them balanced. Strong in the attack but VERY susceptible to musket/arrow fire, as well as charges in the back.
That's how mods do it and it works fine

Interesting, so it forces them to always use the pikes and not just become crappy infantry? Ill have to try that out since the current pikes are not really a technological advance, a step back from the dismounted knights actually. Anyone know how I would make that change?

Oops stalk beat me to it

[eggthief]

Ehm, sure they can be made vulnerable to ranged attacks, but with a permament main weapon stance even charges in the back with the heaviest kind of cavalry or infantry won't work. Just play SS and tell me the same.

[Pink Beard]

Ehm, sure they can be made vulnerable to ranged attacks, but with a permament main weapon stance even charges in the back with the heaviest kind of cavalry or infantry won't work. Just play SS and tell me the same.

I will... I play Thera, A new beginning alot and some factions get good pikemen right from the start and although they are strong (they should be, they are a renaissance invention!), they will not beat the crap out of just about anything... Horse archers, Javelins, Gunpowder troops, artillery and light infantry (especially peasants) all make minch-meat out of my pikemen if They catch me unguarded.

[Ascarona]

I will... I play Thera, A new beginning alot and some factions get good pikemen right from the start and although they are strong (they should be, they are a renaissance invention!), they will not beat the crap out of just about anything... Horse archers, Javelins, Gunpowder troops, artillery and light infantry (especially peasants) all make minch-meat out of my pikemen if They catch me unguarded.

Thera sucks, pathfinding is somehow WORSE (and i was convinced by the almighty himself that this is impossible) than original M2:TW. Also early rebel garrisons are usually overpowered, and the unit rosters are just plain wierd (seriously why are lord of the rings units in Roman army's?!?!)

Btw, how do you edit units anyway? I know , im a noob at modding

[StalkAndStrike]

Thera sucks, pathfinding is somehow WORSE (and i was convinced by the almighty himself that this is impossible) than original M2:TW. Also early rebel garrisons are usually overpowered, and the unit rosters are just plain wierd (seriously why are lord of the rings units in Roman army's?!?!)

Btw, how do you edit units anyway? I know , im a noob at modding

Same, I've been asking around for months and no one is capable of explainning it, they just immediadltey use terms you wont understand, so they look cool lol

[Pink Beard]

First of all I don't know myself how to mod pikemen, please ask this in the mod workshop!

Thera sucks, pathfinding is somehow WORSE (and i was convinced by the almighty himself that this is impossible) than original M2:TW. Also early rebel garrisons are usually overpowered, and the unit rosters are just plain wierd (seriously why are lord of the rings units in Roman army's?!?!)

Btw, how do you edit units anyway? I know , im a noob at modding

first; pathfinding is just the same as M2:TW, maybe even better.

Second; U haven't played thera at all have you? Then you wouldn't be whining about large rebel garissons because the majority of rebel towns are... empty!!

third; The Uruk Hai are supposed to be Arena Beasts for the Romuli but they will get their own faction in V2 (And their own back-ground story)

fourth; Thera is a fantasy mod.
What did u expected, another Europe modification?

[StalkAndStrike]

First of all I don't know myself how to mod pikemen, please ask this in the mod workshop!




first; pathfinding is just the same as M2:TW, maybe even better.

Second; U haven't played thera at all have you? Then you wouldn't be whining about large rebel garissons because the majority of rebel towns are... empty!!

third; The Uruk Hai are supposed to be Arena Beasts for the Romuli but they will get their own faction in V2 (And their own back-ground story)

fourth; Thera is a fantasy mod.
What did u expected, another Europe modification?

I haven't heard of Thera before? Worth trying?

[Ascarona]

First of all I don't know myself how to mod pikemen, please ask this in the mod workshop!

first; pathfinding is just the same as M2:TW, maybe even better.

Second; U haven't played thera at all have you? Then you wouldn't be whining about large rebel garissons because the majority of rebel towns are... empty!!

third; The Uruk Hai are supposed to be Arena Beasts for the Romuli but they will get their own faction in V2 (And their own back-ground story)

fourth; Thera is a fantasy mod.
What did u expected, another Europe modification?

I play Thera, Romans and men of Wotan won't do crap in sieges so I am forced to auto them, check the southern town's, huge garrisons of rebels.

Provinces are too big but i guess that happens with a map that is too big. Also christian factions tend to ignore crusade calls which I find... strange.

[Muagan_ra]

I've always found Pike units very frustrating. I can not understand why for alot of factions thy're so high up in the techtree - for Venice Pike Militia are harder to build than Venetian Heavy Infantry. It's absurd.

When I upgrade their armour, it's still very low at a measley 7.

Forget about them, I say. Use them if you must, but for roleplaying rather than actual effectiveness.

[StalkAndStrike]

How do you mofidfy them? I mean I have just gotten back into rtw, and I realise just how BRUTALLY they suck

[eggthief]

The mod is fine for some time, but in the end when you've seen the map it's pretty much a drag.

[dynamo]

Ok, back on topic, I used the search button and found some discussion about disabling the secondary weapon in export_descr_unit.txt, but I cant seem to find the file under data. Anybody know where it is?

[SSJPabs]

We came up with another way, if you implement a spacing fix they are much much better. Reduce the space between units to 0.8 (from 1.2) and increase the space between ranks to 1.8 (from 1.2) and they become much sturdier without having to worry about secondary weapon adjustments. Having played mods that do remove the secondary weapon, it seems to me that pikes kill more (and get killed more) with the spacing fix than the secondary weapon.

Also, I have been experimenting in my latest personal Retrofit campagin with Spanish pike squares and I am really beginning to see their value. 6-8 pike units, 2 basilisks, 2 light cavalry (esp. dragoons) 1 heavy (general) 3 musketeers, 3 light infantry, 2 almughavars. Rather awesome seeing the pike squares rip them to pieces while the cavalry panics them on VH battles. Works well even against Mongols.

[StalkAndStrike]

We came up with another way, if you implement a spacing fix they are much much better. Reduce the space between units to 0.8 (from 1.2) and increase the space between ranks to 1.8 (from 1.2) and they become much sturdier without having to worry about secondary weapon adjustments. Having played mods that do remove the secondary weapon, it seems to me that pikes kill more (and get killed more) with the spacing fix than the secondary weapon.

Also, I have been experimenting in my latest personal Retrofit campagin with Spanish pike squares and I am really beginning to see their value. 6-8 pike units, 2 basilisks, 2 light cavalry (esp. dragoons) 1 heavy (general) 3 musketeers, 3 light infantry, 2 almughavars. Rather awesome seeing the pike squares rip them to pieces while the cavalry panics them on VH battles. Works well even against Mongols.

The spacing Idea seems good, but in the end, deosent the same thing just happen? I mean isnt it their reaction to how close enemies are?

[dynamo]

Hmm ok it actually doesnt work now, I edited some more stuff and now the game crashes when I launch. Is there a comprehensive guide anywhere that could explain editing units anywhere? I checked on the modding section but didn't find anything.

[Old Geezer]

To modify MTW2 by removing the secondary weapon from the pikemen (aka taking away their rubber knives) go to the data file in MTW2 and open it. The file should be about 14 from the bottom and its name is "export_descr_unit". Double click and it will open in notepad where you can make changes. First make a copy of the original file and save it somewhere. Hit the edit button in the upper left and open the find button. Type in tercio. Then look down and find the stat_sec line (about half way down) and modify it to say " 0, 0, no, 0, 0, none, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1". Save the change, exit and play. If you are playing in a mod, you will have to change each one. You can also modify the formation. Mine looks like this " 1.0, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 8, square, phalanx" but I don't remember if this has been modified from the original.
OK, I found my original tercio's formation line which reads "formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square, phalanx" so I guess I did modify it and the men are closer together which makes them easier to hit with arrows but harder for swords to penetrate. Varangian Guards will chop their way in and defeat good pike units. The modified pikemen can be shot full o' holes very quickly by cheap crossbowmen which I just did to several Flemish Pikemen in Bruges. They are also very susceptible to charges from the rear by cavalry which withdraws immediately and to javelins. They just plain macerate the Mongols as they come through a gate.

[dynamo]

To modify MTW2 by removing the secondary weapon from the pikemen (aka taking away their rubber knives) go to the data file in MTW2 and open it. The file should be about 14 from the bottom and its name is "export_descr_unit". Double click and it will open in notepad where you can make changes. First make a copy of the original file and save it somewhere. Hit the edit button in the upper left and open the find button. Type in tercio. Then look down and find the stat_sec line (about half way down) and modify it to say " 0, 0, no, 0, 0, none, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1". Save the change, exit and play. If you are playing in a mod, you will have to change each one. You can also modify the formation. Mine looks like this " 1.0, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 8, square, phalanx" but I don't remember if this has been modified from the original.
OK, I found my original tercio's formation line which reads "formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square, phalanx" so I guess I did modify it and the men are closer together which makes them easier to hit with arrows but harder for swords to penetrate. Varangian Guards will chop their way in and defeat good pike units. The modified pikemen can be shot full o' holes very quickly by cheap crossbowmen which I just did to several Flemish Pikemen in Bruges. They are also very susceptible to charges from the rear by cavalry which withdraws immediately and to javelins. They just plain macerate the Mongols as they come through a gate.

Thank you for the help, but it doesn't seem to have worked. First I apparently (according to another thread here I found) needed to use the unpacker to see the export_descr_unit file, after that I edited it like you said. Unfortunatly I tested it and it didnt work, they still ditch the pikes pretty quickly. What did I do wrong?