What is wrong with Milan??

**Neige** · February 28, 2009, 03:55 AM

I'v been playing as Milan for a while now, and I really enjoy this faction. But there is something weird going on about it. Since the beginngin of my campaign I got attacked by almost everyone. Venice went to siege Milan at the first 5 turns. Then I got attacked by France, then HRE and so on. What's even worse, Portugal and Moors (allies) kept sending fleets with armies to my cities most of the campaign. And that was pretty annoying. I have reputation - very untrustworthy, although I never attacked an ally. In fact I had never started a war against anyone. Although I did had some strong alliances with Papal states, Denmark and Sicily, eventually they all started war against me. Pope trained spies and sent them into my cities. He also threatened to excom me if I attack his new ally - Hungary, whos capital I was about to take. I managed to get rid of some of my enemies (France, England, HRE), I still have trouble finishing the campaign, because I get my towns sieged every turn.

So... what in hell is wrong with Milan???

**spartan117** · February 28, 2009, 04:03 AM

For one you have conquered a great deal of land which in most cases means you declared war on neutral factions. this will surely lower your reputation. A campaign like that would be mighty interesting. Fighting all different factions across the map. If you find that you cant hold certain areas simply retreat and hold down checkpoints that you easily defend. (seems to me you have large borders that leaves many settlements exposed) Then when you are ready or many of the other factions wasted many armies you can proceed and go on offensive. Unless you have a lot of money then maybe going on the offensive from the get go is more ideal. either have fun and good luck.

**Viking Prince** · February 28, 2009, 04:09 AM

Well your complaint about turn 5 is not the same as your current position controlling a significant bit of the map.

What version of the game including patches and mods are you playing?

What level of difficulty are you playing the game on?

As for global reputation -- simply attacking will lower it regardless of who starts the wars. The larger and more powerful you are, the less others are going to trust you. While at war, your less trusted by others versus being at peace.

**Neige** · February 28, 2009, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by Viking Prince

What version of the game including patches and mods are you playing?

What level of difficulty are you playing the game on?

Vanilla M2. No mods. Latest patch. (Came with Kingdoms.)
Difficulty levels: campaign map: medium, battle map: very hard.

**Soulghast** · February 28, 2009, 05:26 AM

The Italian Factions usually have quite a strong advantage early on, due to their superior militia, so you should be able to handle your enemies at the start of the game. I have played multiple campaigns with the Milanese, and I've always found them to be one of the most enjoyable factions in the game.

You always have to keep in mind that the level of aggressiveness exhibited by other factions is closely aligned with the difficulty level. In higher difficulty levels, foreign factions tend to be much more aggressive and expansive, and alliances are much more fragile. Judging by your screenshot, I wouldn't say you have a huge problem, as your Empire is quite large, but it is normal to be besieged a lot when you many provinces are in your possession. Keep it up, and you'll eventually come through.

**Viking Prince** · February 28, 2009, 05:41 AM

It has been so long since I played straight vanilla. I usually play the Retrofit Mod. I recall that the Italians were one of the reasons that I looked to Retrofit. Turn five seems to be a bit quick though. Did you leave nearly no garrison or cross troops or spy into Venice's regions? Once they came smashing in, did you counterattack or simply defeat the invasion?

Wars can get out of hand by simply doing more than defeating the enemy stack. If you are wanting the war to continue and expand, that is one thing. If you are hoping to contain the war, you must constrain your actions and not do anything more than defeat the immediate agressors. Sending a diplomat can sometimes be useful on the turn after you defeat the stack in battle.

Sometimes, if a faction attacks and you then proceed with a planned attack against another faction, you can incite an inferno that will burn for quite awhile. By bein an aggressor with the second faction at war with you can make it nearly impossible to find peace the the first one even if you begin to defeat their armies that invaded your regions.

**Neige** · February 28, 2009, 06:09 AM

I had some 6 units in Milan. But I didn't send any spies or armies into venetian territories. I did send a diplomat and managed to arrange trade rights. And that's all. I defeated their army, and then wiped them out. I left them only with Iraclion.
And that is the scenario for all of my wars. HRE attacked me. I defeated them, took Bologna and then most of their lands. French attacked me. I defeated them, and as they were excommed, I started a crusade and wiped them out of this world.
I only can't understand why Denmark and Sicily backstabbed me. We had good relations. Danes even helped me at many battles. They semed to be happy with me. I also helped Sicily a lot. Especially at sea. But then, one day they sent a full stack at my castle. Why???

And as for AI, it is truly terrible. Both for diplomacy and battles. I hate seeing AI troops just standing and doing nothing as I smash them with cannons. I used to play SS, because it had a bit better battle AI, but diplomacy mostly wasn't fixed. And so I stick with vanilla Medieval. If AI would be better, this game would be PERFECT.

**Last of the Mohawks** · February 28, 2009, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by archer9

But then, one day they sent a full stack at my castle. Why???

And why did you have a castle??

**Commander5xl** · February 28, 2009, 08:18 AM

okay we'll there is your problem

you were allied to the Vikings, and in my experience they go nuts with war, every faction I've played that's near their border they declare war

**Old Geezer** · February 28, 2009, 09:04 AM

Milan has superior position, economy at the start, and units. Almost all human player hate Milan. Why shouldn't the AI? If the AI doesn't attack Milan right away it can grow into an huge empire. Milan is programmed to go for Bern - I think it is to get it a castle. Once Milan gets armored sergeants and mailed knights its neighbors know that they are in trouble. Milan is programmed to attack France, Germany, and Venice and these factions must know this tendency. Milan is also programmed to be very untrustworthy. Ever notice how it invariably gets excommunicated? The strange thing is that IIRC Milan can go to the Pope asap when the game starts and get an alliance! This seems to me to help it not being attacked so ferociously.

**StalkAndStrike** · February 28, 2009, 10:52 AM

Milan are just jealous because all of their women are ugly, thats why they are so aggressive

**Lysimachus** · February 28, 2009, 11:05 AM

Because armies of Italian Spear Militia and Genoese Crossbow Militia are boring? I myself like to have some Feudal Knights/dism., Genoese Crossbowmen, Armoured Sergeants and Men-at-Arms/dism.

**StalkAndStrike** · February 28, 2009, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Alex Coles

Because armies of Italian Spear Militia and Genoese Crossbow Militia are boring? I myself like to have some Feudal Knights/dism., Genoese Crossbowmen, Armoured Sergeants and Men-at-Arms/dism.

Thats a good point, the only units you can expect to encounter if you attempt to attack the milanese are those...there arent any tactics behinde that...just charge them with cav. game over

**Quercia** · February 28, 2009, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by StalkAndStrike

Thats a good point, the only units you can expect to encounter if you attempt to attack the milanese are those...there arent any tactics behinde that...just charge them with cav. game over

Indeed and I owned them big time with my cavalry armies.

I'm playing France right now and I got backstabbed by Milan. But I erased them off the map shortly after. I'm also at war with England, Crown of Aragon (backstabbed me too), HRE and Sicily.

**Vlad the Mad** · February 28, 2009, 01:05 PM

Your rep can go down with some factions just by making trade rights with their enemies. The rep system is a

. I hope empires has a better diplomacy system and an AI that doesn't stand around or drop "siege" equipment and not pick it up again.

**Muagan_ra** · February 28, 2009, 02:33 PM

Hah, bring's back memories. Milan is a great faction, but I'm sorry to break it to you my friend, the AI has a pathological hatred for them. Same goes for Venice, it would same.

Maybe it's the fact that Milan and Venice are surrounded on all sides by factions that this inevitably means they are bound to fight all of them.

Are your enemies by any chance all part of an interlocking alliance with one another? Happened to me as Milan, and it's repeating itslef now as Venice.

The only thing I could advise is to make the most of your alliance with the Pope. Gift him some territories on your frontiers, which would hopefully create a "buffer zone" between your enemies and you.

You could also elimate enemy factions without conquest, through the use of assassins and headhunting their family members in battle. If you do it right, their empires will suddenly become "Rebels" if you get rid of all the royalty.

**Quercia** · February 28, 2009, 02:42 PM

Milan is as AI also very untrustworthy, indeed. They betrayed me anyhow.

Your best bet is to capture Florence as fast as you can, as well as Bern and Dijon perhaps. They are rebel settlements near you... Never been attacked by someone on turn 5 though... I played Milan once but never had any fights early on. Maybe against Venice at the start.

**Viking Prince** · February 28, 2009, 03:54 PM

So you cannot understand why all hate you. Each and every faction that you have fought has been pounded into near extinction. Hmmm????

As for Venice attacjing on turn 5 -- well sometimes it happens. I know that as France in vanilla, I get tired of Sicily temptng France to become excommunicated over Marseilles. The Italian peninsula is just plain crowded.

**fluffstalker** · February 28, 2009, 07:11 PM

Play a mod. The AI and Diplomacy of Vanilla is abysmal, short of selling your soul theres no way to keep your rep sliding down.

As Viking put, your crowded in.

The solution is brutally simple - use the Ais poor battlefield performance to your advantage and just conquer. Trying to conquer a bit and then be peaceful doestn really work without mods to diplomacy, at least in my experience. Either turtle or go all out to rapidly crush the enemy. Use the money to rapidly regarison your cities and keep going! This reduces an AIs ability to fight much better than trying to be peaceful with them.

**StalkAndStrike** · March 01, 2009, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by fluffstalker

Play a mod. The AI and Diplomacy of Vanilla is abysmal, short of selling your soul theres no way to keep your rep sliding down.

As Viking put, your crowded in.

The solution is brutally simple - use the Ais poor battlefield performance to your advantage and just conquer. Trying to conquer a bit and then be peaceful doestn really work without mods to diplomacy, at least in my experience. Either turtle or go all out to rapidly crush the enemy. Use the money to rapidly regarison your cities and keep going! This reduces an AIs ability to fight much better than trying to be peaceful with them.

Agreed

But I never though mods where necessary, if you cant deal with the AI's stupid antics, use a simple philosophy: whatever isnt yours, is either going to, or its going to be dead!