Advance tactics, NOT hammer and anvil

[Kjertesvein]

Here is my problem: I look the last 3 pages, and checked the sticky formation thread all the way through. 99% of all field battles you fight, consist of:

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Infantry protecting(Red) Spearmen, heavy knights etc.
Range unit protected behing the line(blue). archers, ballista, etc.
And some sort of fast unit to flank(black) light horse, heavy horse, very light infantry

Maybe some move their infantry little bit different etc, but its the same all over(99%). I have found a couple advance tactics from time to time.
I collect tactics, so it would be cool the have advance tactics to try out. If you post them here with paint or something to make it clear, not the: ppppssssaaaa-bs. upload with www.Imageshack.us or link it to other threads.

How to take down larger army.
How to take down equal army, but with advance troops.
Small glitches/tips to help.

[Lord Feloric's Ambassador]

My Lord has a few tricks he uses, but I'm not sure if you would call these advanced tactics.

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The object of this strategy is to funnel the enemy army into the "V" formation. Use "Bait" (light infantry, skirmishers, or archers) to lure the enemies into the trap. This tactic is especially effective against slightly larger armies and it's preferred if you can hide your cavalry in the woods.

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This tactic is a slightly different version of the "Hammer and Anvil" tactic. This is a great strategy if you have a lot of horse archers. Harass the enemies with horse archers, then when the enemy army is entangled with your main army charge the horse archers into their backs. It's wise to keep your horse archers very far away from the enemy army so if they send troops to attack your horse archers (usually cavalry) you can take those units on a trip around the battle map.

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Sometimes you may send a small army (2-5 units) to attack a lightly defended city (probably only 2-5 units protecting the city) and often the enemy will sally forth. When and if they do that split your army up and press them in the middle. This is a pretty straight forward and simple strategy that can help you ensure victory during small skirmishes.

[Old_Scratch]

When I'm forced into a melee with a larger army, I will isolate one part of the enemy army and destroy it bit by bit while using my second string troops as a screen. Here is a visualization, blue is the friendly army, red is the enemy.

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Use your best infantry and any cavalry to engage the infantry on the flank. Everything else you have use as a delaying force. I mean everything too, archers, crossbowmen, religious fanatics, artillery crews, or anything else with a pulse. They're job is to delay the rest of the enemy army long enough for you to rout the flank. As soon as that happens move down the line and do the same thing. Every unit you rout will free up more and more of your own troops to reinforce your delaying troops. You need to be quick though because if you don't rout that first unit quickly all is lost.

[Kjertesvein]

Well i got to say that, im impressed. You will be fully credited.

Link to guide soon coming

Btw: The "bait"-formation could be a challenge, b/c new A.I will spread out. focusing on all infamtry, leaving your archer (more or less) alone. Agincourt-formation might be a solution here. As Archer act as flankers.

[Muagan_ra]

-snip, post went wrong-

[Muagan_ra]

I too feel a bit bored with hammer and anvil, and like to experient.

One strategy I started off with in Rome Total War, playing as Carthage against the Romans. I had sub-standard, but very experienced infantry - they could hold out, but not deliver a killing blow to the Roman infantry. Conversely, I had fabulous cavalry, which ate their Roman equivilents for breakfast. I wanted to find a way to use my cavalry to get behind their line, but not be caught by spearmen on the flanks - and I came up with this.


Central Feint

C C             G               C C
    S S I I I I I I I I I I S S



       I I I I I      I I I I I 
    S                           S

               C C C
               C C C
                  G

(I = Infantry, S = Spearmen, C = Cavalry, G = General)

The above is the standard set up, with your army below and the enemy above. The main idea is to have your main infantry line split in two, with a sizeable gap in between both halves. Spearmen on the side protect your flanks, and your cavalry should be in the center a distance back. The enemy will attack and take advantage of the gap in your centre, but alot of their troops will be piled into that gap, engaging your forces from the side, exposing their sides to your cavalry. The idea is to charge into them once they are fully engaged and crowded in.

                     G               
         S S I I I I I I I I I I S S
  C  C   I I I I I      I I I I I C C 
    S                               S

                  C C C
                  C C C
                    G

Your infantry should be able to hold on if you have a good general, or maybe a standard to bolster their morale. But before they rout, and the enemy are thoroughly enaged, charge your cavalry into their exposed sides. I find that on many occassions this results in your opening up a large gap in their centre, and as they rout you can charge directly on to engage their general, and kill him if you have good enough cavalry. You will then have gotten around them from the centre, avoided their anti-flanking troops and can engage them in the rear.

                      I I I
                   
                        G               
          S S I I I C C C I I I I S S
   C  C    I I I I I C C C I I I I I  C C 
    S                                  S

Hope that makes sense, the diagrams aren't what they could be...

It's a fun tactic to use.

[nimoto]

I've started to work archers and artillery into my main infantry line, so that most of my force, sans cavalry, is in a single line. The advantage is that my archers and artillery have maximum range, and the archers especially have to arc shots less (direct fire works a lot better). The archers and artillery should be worked in with at least as many, and preferably more infantry. The key to this formation not falling apart is to charge your infantry at their charging army early enough that most of your archers and artillery avoid combat. Cav can still charge the flanks as usual- A lot of times this formation suckers the enemy cav into charging ahead of its own infantry at a trebuchet (or whatever), which happens to be flanked on either side by spearmen (or whatever). If you do it right, the cav never hit the trebuchet, and have to run away broken through their own still-advancing infantry.

Another I used as England defending against the Mongols and Timurids was to take a building or natural barrier on the battlefield (when there was one) and set up a square of stakes from my longbowmen (with the building, or cliff providing a side or two to the square). It's like making a little fort where the walls kill horses, and also allow your missile units to fire directly through. My armies at the time were mainly longbow, with cannons, a few arquebusiers, and a few spearmen. I'd spread the longbow into as thin a formation as possible when deploying the spikes to get the max spread (and biggest box), and would lay them out individually so that the spikes had no gaps. When the battle started the longbows retreated from the spikes into a compact formation at the back of the square, and the arquebusiers move in front. The spearmen filled up any hole in the spikes, in ranks ten deep. The Mongols would surround me, but be unable to charge (except for their non-missile units, which would always charge and die horribly on spikes). The longbowmen never had much trouble with their missile cav, and the cannons (3-4 units) were able to knock out any enemy rocket launchers or trebuchets before they became a problem.

With the turks I've made an army of almost all (14 units) Ottoman infantry, which are missile infantry with melee skill and good defense (there are examples for other factions, I'm sure, Pavise crossbow come to mind). I use them in a double line, with the units making up the back line in spread formation, and the front line tight formation. They all fire arrows for as long as possible, but if I get attacked the front line fight melee while the back line continues to fire arrows. The death blow usually comes when the back line charges to reinforce. This army is also very good against missile-cav-heavy armies, and is basically impossible to flank.

I also garrison mortars (usually two units) inside cities that may be sieged at some point in the future in order to destroy enemy siege towers (and sometimes rams as well).

There are also places you can put archer units on the wall where they will never ever get knocked out by artillery. The "middle" of the section of wall is the only part that falls, so if you put the unit five deep next to a tower, it will be safe even if they knock the wall down.

That looks good for now-

[Mithrane]

Red = Front line troops (spear/pike/defensive infantry)
Green = Range Troops (Bow/crossbow/javeline)
Blue = Shock Melee (high attack troops, prefferably with axes)
Orange = Artillery (prefferably Mangonel or such for good aoe)
Brown = General/Heavy Cavalry


This is a defensive army make-up. It does not work so well when attacking, but does wonders when defending. The key to it is the seperation in the middle. One can keep them together, as shown here, or break them apart. I find it works best with the right section moved away and at such an angle that the front-line troops make a 90 degree angle with those of the other troops, but at a distance such that the range of one unit can JUST reach the other unit.

General protects from strong flank attack and exploits any attacking down center. If one faces a large single force of infantry, they can leave the artillery between the side troops, pummel until timed right to slam from side with both groups of spears, sending shock troops around back to cut escape, and general straight down middle from artillery. (Hint, this is how I grow dread generals as it kills EVERYTHING.

[Kjertesvein]

Red = Front line troops (spear/pike/defensive infantry)
Green = Range Troops (Bow/crossbow/javeline)
Blue = Shock Melee (high attack troops, prefferably with axes)
Orange = Artillery (prefferably Mangonel or such for good aoe)
Brown = General/Heavy Cavalry


This is a defensive army make-up. It does not work so well when attacking, but does wonders when defending. The key to it is the seperation in the middle. One can keep them together, as shown here, or break them apart. I find it works best with the right section moved away and at such an angle that the front-line troops make a 90 degree angle with those of the other troops, but at a distance such that the range of one unit can JUST reach the other unit.

General protects from strong flank attack and exploits any attacking down center. If one faces a large single force of infantry, they can leave the artillery between the side troops, pummel until timed right to slam from side with both groups of spears, sending shock troops around back to cut escape, and general straight down middle from artillery. (Hint, this is how I grow dread generals as it kills EVERYTHING.

I'm sure you got a great tactic there, but I couldn't understand anything. Clear it up with arrows, several pictures or divide up your sentence with "."

[Mithrane]

Take right half of army and move them far to the right. (You can tell the halves by where the left side turns down and right side remains straight.) Turn them at an angle so they face 90 degrees to the left half. This should have the far right spears facing straight "forward".

If facing a large infantry force, then doing A, B, C, and D will make for an easy win and gain of dread.

A - they can leave the artillery between side troops (flanked by the 2 halves of the army)
B - pummel until timed right to slam from sides with both groups of spears (shoot them then hit from both sides when they are deep in the trap)
C - sending shock troops around back to cut escape (send the blue troops behind the enemy)
D - and general straight down middle from artillery (send the general into the front of the enemy after engaged with your spears)

I'm sorry you had difficulty with a complex sentence. Please take the time to read each part of the description and compare it to the picture. I assure you, if you draw it out, it is very easy to understand. I hope my breaking it down into smaller and simpler parts, coupled with explaining each part further, will assist you in comprehending it.

[Kjertesvein]

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Or the more easier version:

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I have alse seen other splitt formation, but never realy got them to work better then hammer & anvil. Check out detailed Nikolas version

[Mithrane]

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Or the more easier version:

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I have alse seen other splitt formation, but never realy got them to work better then hammer & anvil. Check out detailed Nikolas version

The problem with the two versions shown here are 2 fold. First, they leave the backs of one infantry group open should the enemy push into the gap/feint. Second, they use flaming arrows on troops engaged with your own. Flaming arrows are very innacurate, and will likely kill as many or more of your own in that situation.

This seems also to assume the enemy leaves 1/2 of his army behind, which I've never seen them do.

Here are 2 renditions of the same intent which will likely hold better against higher numbers.

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Red - Spear Blue - Crossbow/gun Green - Arrow Black - enemy movement and direction

Keep them a good distance apart. Let archers shoot over crossbows and central spears. Don't fire if engaged with central spears unless vastly outnumbered, and then only fire with opposite side's archers. Do not use flaming arrows. Note that there is an overlap of spears on far sides. Use those to cover flanks if cavalry attacks. If no cavalry, wrap around behind enemy.

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Red - spear Blue - crossbow Green - bow Orange - shock-troops Brown- General

The green speckles means they are in trees/cover. Use only well armored and highly shielded spears on right side. Turn auto-fire off. When engaged, open up on them. Send shock-troops at anything which turns around. General to counter large pushes. Note, you will lose a goodly number of your right flank. This is for a desparate situation where you face very large numbers, but have a technology advantage. This does not work well vs cavalry unless the trees are on a sizeable hill.

[Old_Scratch]

Here's a terbuchet tactic I've used in multiplayer with pretty good success. If you're planning on engaging in a prolonged artillery battle then it's always best to split your artillery up so as to make them more difficult targets.

But, if you suspect that you will be charged, trebuchets deployed close together are useful on multiple levels. Trebuchets are giant contraptions which units can't pass through, they have to go around them. So if you deploy a few of them in close order (regular grouping) they will act as a makeshift mobile wall.

Even if they are destroyed they will still provide both an obstacle and cover from arrow fire. If the enemy tries to attack through your trebs you will be able to hold the position with a minimal amount of forces. Good if you're outnumbered. Their army will get all bunched up and squeeze through the gaps piecemeal and disorganized. Just picture the gaps between the trebs like city gates. If you have more troops available you can easily flank and trap the enemy army. Also, don't forget to fling cow as they charge.

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Brown is trebuchets, red is enemy.

You can get pretty creative with trebuchets and form then into any defensive structure really. They saved me once in multiplayer when my opponent had several longbowmen left and all I have was several dismounted knights. I knew I'd never be able to catch him and he'd just shoot me to death.

So I ran up to his trebuchets, which were abandoned in a jumbled circle and took cover from his arrows. He couldn't hit me and I just waited until he ran out of arrows and then charged them for the win.

[Kjertesvein]

I play DLV. + minimod: BB 1.7 HARDCORE:

• gives you bigger. more advance. more moral to A.I Armys
• You have to deal with supply rout(bad for slow ballista etc).
• Low moral troops, if there is a long journey(like crusades).
• Field cost, armys cost more to have in the field then inside.

So everything is streatched to the limit. But i will try you tactics soon...

Check this out. very detailed, but never got it to work. Need polishing.:hmmm:

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I can only refer to my field battles strategy which usually remains same in every battle...either assault or defence :

Well....In a normal campaign scenario...were due to lack of infinate money i cannot field always an army full of elite units i use a concept which was used by ancient Greek Phalanx armies of Athens in order to crush enemies even against great odds asf (well with a few changes as at The Battle of Marathon the Athenians did not field any Heavy cavalry or cavalry at all hehe :

------ PLS CLICK ON THE THUMBNAILS FOR A SCEMATIC APPEARENCE OF EACH PHASE ---

PHASE 1:

M: missile Units
I: Infantry (Either Heavy or Normal or Light)
S: Spears
C: Heavy Cavalry (Kataphracts since i play the Byzantine Empire)
L: Light Cavalry (Stratiote or any kind of Light Lancer BUT NOT mounted archers)


I split the army in the following groups as swon in the drawing.



PHASE 2:

Now on the next phase of the battle i forward the whole army towards the enemy at shooting distance in order fr my missiles to start shooting but must take care not to change the distances between the groups. Now the important thing is that the AI while on frontal attacks tends to attack your "weakest units" first... 9/10 times. That is very critical fr the abv strategy to work...So if everything goes fine and the enemy is lured in the center...(you got to help this happening by projecting a big frontal area with your missiles and harrassing the enemy's centre by skirmishing..running back and forth faking a melee attack with secondary wepons etc..) the battlefield should look like this:





PHASE 3:

Now in the 2nd phase of the above startegy as you can obviously see this gets you into a position to DOUBLE ENVELOPE the enemy's centre by a crushing double flank attack from your wings while he is trying to kill your missiles troops (Important.: i have noticed that you need quite a few missile troops to be able to lure the enemy effectively).. Please note that you do not attack with every unit in you flank...as you noticed the rear ranks of my flanks are spearmen..(or pike if you want) the reason is that after you envelope the center..the AI usually charges its Cavalry at your back to brake the encirclement...so the tactic is shown as following(in the meantime my Cavalry has taken its time to go a long round trip behind enemy lines):



At this phase there are 3 possible outcomes:

1)
After a while the central enemy units route..if not totally anihilated at spot. If the enemy cavalry charges at your flanking units you have the spears readied for them... You cavalry comes from behind and finishes of the enemy cavalry which is entangled in your spears...You know the rest....chain routing...Victory within a few seconds...

2)
If Enemy's infantry units are top quality/elite (usually my case especially during late era ) so they dont get damaged enough even with the double/triple flanking (with the counter attack) tactic shown above. When this happens they do not route and AI reasonably sends the rest of melee or even cavalry troops to create a big messy "sandwich" at the centre looking something like that:

As you can imagine you begin consecutive cavalry charges in the enemys rear hoping to break them and start routing...you can use light cavalry then for capturing routers.

Final Phase:




There are a few advantages and 2 BIG disadvatages in this tactic which are asf:

1) It Can give you victory even against great Odds. With WAYYY to many enemy casualties..enemy does not just flee...they get Anihilated .

2) Very Fast... Most of the times the crushing attack at the centre terrifies the AI armies and they Flee battle within a few seconds (Yes i know about the full cavalry army and the frontal charge...but its not realistic...im talking about balanced realistic synthesis of an army with all basic kinds of units)

3) Gives you control of the battle to a certain extent. You get to control the engagement. Does not necessarily need all kind of elite troops..but good versions of the basic 3...Infantry (mixed with Spears) , quite a few Missiles just for luring the enemy in center and thus becoming the "bait" for the entrapment (achers with sec. Sword?) and a good load of hevy cavalry including your general's bodygrds).

Disadvantages:

1)If the enemys majority of melee troops have better stats than any of your infantry then the whole tactic goes to waste because the centre does not break even when encircled they do not break but instead they kill all of your flanking troops...in this case only way to anticipate is to flank them only with one wing and leave the other flank of their central attacking units open for charge by your cavalry. At this point your wing which skips the flanking attack should march even further to intercept any attack to your charging cavalry as shown:



2) The second and biggest problem of this tactic is that it is VERY VEEEERY deifficult to perform.... Needs perfect timing....and needs to move all different wings at the SAME TIME and accurately...Believe me..in same battles with same General's stats, same enemy units, same all things, i have had different outcomes due to a slight inaccuracy of handling the units (one wing marching just a bit further than the other...cavalry not lined up fr charge on time or not chargin to good due to terrain abnormalities...spears not placed too tight in the flanks pointing outward...) Needs a lot of practice to master...but if you perform it correctly and Accurately you can achieve heroic victories.

That was my humble battle tactic.. Well its not just that cause it has many more Micromanagement in it but it will take too long. Pls feel free to ask me fr any clarifications that you may need.

Pls kindly let me know of your opinions/ suggestions.

P/S: pls forginve my English...as for the Drawings i know they look messy but i had to do them in simple MSpaint...i hope that you get my point though!

Best Regards,
Nikolaos

+ Εν ΤουΤω ΝικΑ +

[Mithrane]

That is an interesting strategy which might work if using highly defensive archers. The flaws I see are as follows...

1.) If the enemy is of any offensive strength, the archers will be over-run before the infantry can turn to attack.
2.) Infantry is leaving flank/back open to attack from advancing enemy on both flanks.
3.) Spear/shield wall (when mods allow it) shrink size of spear units. Thus, they will need at least 3:2 ratio to keep enemy infantry from enveloping past them.
4.) This seems to require a numerical advantage over the enemy. With such an advantage, the troops could be better used while not sacrificing the archers.
5.) The cavalry seem to be unused for a large portion of the battle. So much so, that, odds are, by the time they enter, your troops will be either decimated or mostly triumphant.


That said, if pulled off quickly enough, and with a bit of luck, it should decimate the entire enemy and give a heroic victory. The problem will be timing, luck, and the fact that the enemy tends to have the most advanced units possible.

[Garnier]

The reason everyone uses hammer and anvil is because it is and always has been the easiest and best and most obvious strategy and it works great in all total war games even against superior AI armies.

[Mithrane]

The following was used last night to great effect in multiple mountain passes. Black area designates a cliff, which the right flank is on the high ground.

Pink - Expendable troops. (Mercs, peasants, rabbles... generally something you expect to lose)
Red - Either highly experienced or advanced defensive infantry, prefferably spears.
Green - Archers, prefferably with fast fire and long range
Orange - Elite shock-troop
Brown - General

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Seeing the large number of open infantry below, and the more open flank from behind, the enemy tends to attack with their main force into the pink troops, while sending their stronger troops up the hill/mountain to your spears. In this scenario, your expendable troops are there for only 2 reasons.... hold their attention and turn their backs to your archers.

Should the enemy have archers, they will waste their arrows on your expendable troops while you destroy the larger portion of their forces below. Anything they send up to fight you will face a VERY tough fight against 3 units of strong spears defending a raised position. Should anything make it through the "meat grinder", your shock troops will have a HUGE charge bonus and will mow them down. Should either your shocks or your spears need help, your general is a quick charge away.

Should the enemy send their entire force up the mountain to meet you, you have a large force to slam into their rear as they are peppered with arrows.

[Kjertesvein]

The reason everyone uses hammer and anvil is because it is and always has been the easiest and best and most obvious strategy and it works great in all total war games even against superior AI armies.

You know the few times you only got 1:5, and you still win. That either got to do with:

• Old A.I
• Defencive bridge, -gatefight, high ground ect. (stakes, pikes ect)
• Or you exploits the A.I:
  
  • use the ballista, muskets in a new position to kick the legs of peasents.
  • Maybe you know that A.I will only charge a certin unit, instead of your V.I.P unit.

All in all, its just a machine with an amount of solutions. Like morpheus said...

I've seen an Agent punch through a concrete wall. Men have emptied entire clips at them and hit nothing but air. Yet their strength and their speed are still based in a world that is built on rules. Because of that, they will never be as strong or as fast as you can be