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  1. #1
    nate895's Avatar Tiro
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    Default State Sovereignty in the United States

    Due to the debate on the states that recently proposed sovereignty resolutions, I wrote the following:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    State Sovereignty in the United States

    Recently twenty states have introduced resolutions intended to reclaim their sovereignty, and a couple threaten dissolution of the Union should the Federal government violate a provision of the resolution. One has already passed the lower chamber of Oklahoma, and State Senate leaders say that it will probably pass their chamber. Do they have a point? Could they just be sore losers? They do indeed have a point: The states created the Federal government, and they did so for their purposes. The Federal government is, de jure, a voluntary union of sovereign who have delegated certain authorities to the Federal authority. De facto, we are a unitary state that keeps the states in line through various forms of coercion. This is neither the Constitutional or the moral thing to do.

    Many opponents of state sovereignty say that the Union has been existence since the Articles of Association in 1774, and is one continuously evolving sovereign since the Declaration of Independence. This is simply not true. Prior to the Constitution, there are several legal documents that support the idea that the states were sovereign. Those are the Treaty of Paris, Articles of Confederation, and the Declaration of Independence itself. The Treaty of Paris states in Article one:

    His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof.

    Why go to the trouble of naming every state of the Union, and define them in the plural afterward, if you really mean that you recognize the sovereign government of the whole nation? His Britannic Majesty acknowledged all of the states separately as sovereign and independent, and so did all of his heirs. The British never had the occasion to change their form of recognition post-Constitution, so theoretically this still holds true for the current heir to the crown, Elizabeth II.

    The Articles of Confederation are quite clear on the matter of sovereignty, Article two states:

    Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.

    It doesn’t get much clearer than that. Many opponents of state sovereignty use the word “perpetual” in the preamble to justify opposition to secession. This is a flawed argument in that, one, perpetual can mean that something goes on until an unforeseeable point in future time, and two, the Union under the Articles of Confederation didn’t last but a few years. Some may say that it immediately transitioned into the new government under the Constitution of 1787, but this is simply not true because two states enjoyed independent status because they had not ratified the Constitution: Rhode Island and North Carolina (Hawes, 44)*. The Articles clearly were built around the idea that states were sovereign and could withdraw their consent if they so desired.

    The Declaration of Independence states in its operative clause states:

    We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as free and independent states, they have full power to levey war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

    It clearly states “free and independent states” and that “they have full power to levey war, conclude peace…” The states declared their independence from Great Britain, and declared that they each had their own independence. There wasn’t even any union at all up until this point, though it was assumed by many that the new states would confederate. They ultimately did.
    Later on the adoption of the Constitution significantly altered the form which the Federal government took its form, and made it into a whole new Union as a result. There are several indications at state sovereignty in the Constitution, and around zero indication that the new government took away the right to secession. First of all, lets look at the word used to describe the legislative body of the new government (and of the old ones): Congress. Congress, as defined in the most popular dictionary of the time (A Dictionary of the English language), is:

    1. A meeting ; a mock ; a confiift.
    Here Pal'as urges on, and Laufus there j
    Their congreft in the ftVld great Jove withftands,
    Both doora'd to fall, but fall by grca:.T hands.
    Drjden'i JEnc'id.
    From tliefe laws may be deduced the rules of
    the ang'tffes and reflections of two bodies.
    Cbeyae'i Pbibfetticjl Princiflcs.
    2. An appointed meeting for fcttlement
    of affairs between different nations : as,
    the congrefs of Cambray.

    I recommend going to the dictionary itself on page 454, bottom third of the first column.

    Either the Congress is simply a meeting for the purposes of pretty much anything, or it is the meeting of separate nations. The second is quite clearly the political meaning of the word at the time of the Constitution. Either Congress is a meeting of different sovereignties, or the framers were attempting to redefine words.

    In the tenth amendment, the term “delegated” is used to describe the powers given to the Federal government, according to the same dictionary the term means (p. 561, bottom first column-top second):

    t'o DE'LEGATE. v. a.
    \_Jelego, Latin.]
    I. To fend an ay.
    z. To fend upon an embafly.
    3. To entrult; to commit to another's
    power and jurifdiaion.
    As God hath imprinted K; authority in feveral
    pirts upon feveral eftnes of men, a , princes, parent,,
    fphitual ,.,: ; ,.. h al|() Jfl
    *
    d
    SL5ST part f"' h " ^ * r' J <'~
    As God i, the umvcrftl m^rrh, f, v.,
    all the !.,
    "" .v.fubjrdt, to him ; an j Pr
    f
    tend " iliclion ove. each
    Other, than what he has defeated to ..
    n nil, her
    willing lamp with Lcmio
    Commanding her, with deltgatut i,
    fo br.ut.fy ;uc wo,i<i, uri bleu the oigtit ?

    4. To appoint judges to hear and determine
    a particular caufe.

    The word in the context would mean to entrust to another’s jurisdiction. That does not mean you have sent it away forever. When a person delegates authority, they still have the ultimate responsibility of what they are delegating. If you are the director of a project, and you delegate authority instead of micromanage everything, you can still take away the authority from the person the authority was delegated to. Furthermore, if the person who you delegated the authority to is doing a bad job at it, it is not only your right, but your duty to strip them of their authority.

    Another phrase used in the Constitution, in Article 7, is that the Constitution was instituted “between” the states. If something is between two things, how can it be above them? How can an authority instituted between two authorities ultimately have the authority to coerce those states into doing anything that the do not consent to? It just doesn’t make much sense.
    One way the opposition to state sovereignty responds is that the “supremacy” clause makes certain that the Federal government and its laws are supreme. However, this clause only applies to the Constitution and laws “made in Pursuance thereof.” Furthermore it only applies to states within the Union. Well, it only follows that it is indeed the case that the laws of the Federal government are supreme in areas that they are delegated authority. There would be absolutely no point in instituting a Federal government otherwise. Just because the laws made by an entity who has delegated authorities are “supreme” if they are within those delegated authorities does not mean that the parties can never withdraw their consent.

    States are sovereign and have the full rights of a sovereign member of a compact. The states currently demanding their sovereignty have the full right to do so, and are taking the proper course if they feel that the Federal government has overstepped its Constitutional bounds. The Federal government being the sole judge of its powers is truly a dangerous concept. It is large enough and powerful enough to enforce laws a state could never enforced, and it enforces them on more people. The founders intended for a union of sovereign states that kept checks and balances on each other, and eventually there is the ultimate check of secession for a minority whose rights have been oppressed.

    * Hawes, Jr., Robert F.. One Nation, Indivisible?. Fultus Books, 2006.
    Last edited by nate895; February 28, 2009 at 01:06 AM.

  2. #2
    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: State Sovereignty in the United States

    Bump because I intend to read this in the morning/thread should be given a chance.

    Edit: nvm this was at like the top of the list, im just a tired idiot. bye

  3. #3
    Eric's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: State Sovereignty in the United States

    You know what? No, States are not sovereign. They are administrative divisions of one country, and that's all they are and should be. It's not like a United Kingdom kind of arrangement, the States of America are better compared to Roman provinces. And the one time people attempted to enforce state sovereignty, it led to a war. A big freaking war. A big freaking war that ended very badly for those for state sovereignty. You see, the united whole of the US will always be stronger than any individual state. In a world like ours, with so damn many problems, why do you want to push for greater division between US States when division only weakens?
    Better to stand under the Crown than to kneel under a Flag

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    CtrlAltDe1337's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: State Sovereignty in the United States

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    You know what? No, States are not sovereign. They are administrative divisions of one country, and that's all they are and should be. It's not like a United Kingdom kind of arrangement, the States of America are better compared to Roman provinces. And the one time people attempted to enforce state sovereignty, it led to a war. A big freaking war. A big freaking war that ended very badly for those for state sovereignty. You see, the united whole of the US will always be stronger than any individual state. In a world like ours, with so damn many problems, why do you want to push for greater division between US States when division only weakens?
    Er, no. To say that States are merely provinces is a gross simplification and misunderstanding of the way states work and the reason they were founded. The united States of America are a group of 50 states in Union with one another, not administrative divisions. Under the Constitution, no state as absolute sovereignty, of course, but all things not expressly mentioned in the Constitution are reserved to the States and to the people. They are 50 different states with one overreaching federal government for the security, felicity, and union of all.


  5. #5
    nate895's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: State Sovereignty in the United States

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    You know what? No, States are not sovereign. They are administrative divisions of one country, and that's all they are and should be. It's not like a United Kingdom kind of arrangement, the States of America are better compared to Roman provinces. And the one time people attempted to enforce state sovereignty, it led to a war. A big freaking war. A big freaking war that ended very badly for those for state sovereignty. You see, the united whole of the US will always be stronger than any individual state. In a world like ours, with so damn many problems, why do you want to push for greater division between US States when division only weakens?
    And how do you back your unfounded assertion using historical facts? Given history this argument is ignorant. The states created the Federal government. The Roman central authority made the provinces. The two aren't comparable from a legal standpoint at all.

    It may be true the Federal government treats them as administrative divisions, but that does not mean they are supposed to be under our system of government.

  6. #6
    Otherside's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: State Sovereignty in the United States

    Quote Originally Posted by nate895 View Post
    As God hath imprinted K; authority in feveral
    pirts upon feveral eftnes of men, a , princes, parent,,
    fphitual ,.,: ; ,.. h al|() Jfl
    *
    d
    SL5ST part f"' h " ^ * r' J <'~
    As God i, the umvcrftl m^rrh, f, v.,
    all the !.,
    "" .v.fubjrdt, to him ; an j Pr
    f
    tend " iliclion ove. each
    Other, than what he has defeated to ..
    n nil, her
    willing lamp with Lcmio
    Commanding her, with deltgatut i,
    fo br.ut.fy ;uc wo,i<i, uri bleu the oigtit ?
    :hmmm:

  7. #7

    Default Re: State Sovereignty in the United States

    States are not sovereign. A child could demonstrate that they do not have sole authority over their own affairs.

  8. #8
    TW Bigfoot
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    Default Re: State Sovereignty in the United States

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    States are not sovereign. A child could demonstrate that they do not have sole authority over their own affairs.
    is britian sovereign, ferrets?
    If the the US dosent like it, (or god forbid, the EU has a problem with it)
    are we doing it? most states in the US do(did, really should be the operative word, which is part of what this whole thing is about)
    have control over their own internal laws. we have ours mandated from brussels.
    Pherhaps we are that 'oxymoron' you were talking about.
    Last edited by bigfootedfred; February 28, 2009 at 09:46 AM.

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    nate895's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: State Sovereignty in the United States

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    States are not sovereign. A child could demonstrate that they do not have sole authority over their own affairs.
    Oxford:

    sovereignty


    noun (pl. sovereignties) 1 supreme power or authority. 2 a self-governing state.
    The states have the "supreme power or authority" because they are the ones who gave the power to the Federal government, not the other way around. They claimed the power to declare war, make peace, etc. in the Declaration of Independence. They then gave that authority to the "United States in Congress assembled" and retained their sovereignty in the Articles of Confederation. When they made and acceded to the Constitution, there is no suggestion that they gave away sovereignty. The same words describe the legislative body (Congress), the government itself (United States), and the powers they gave to it (delegated).

    Quote Originally Posted by Otherside View Post
    :hmmm:
    I know, but is is a lot easier to read if you actually go to the dictionary itself.
    Last edited by nate895; February 28, 2009 at 01:50 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: State Sovereignty in the United States

    Quote Originally Posted by nate895 View Post
    Oxford:

    The states have the "supreme power or authority" because they are the ones who gave the power to the Federal government, not the other way around..
    Power they cannot get back. They therefore do not have supreme power over their own affairs, and how they lost it is completely irrelevent.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: State Sovereignty in the United States

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Power they cannot get back. They therefore do not have supreme power over their own affairs, and how they lost it is completely irrelevent.
    :hmmm: If they lost their power surely they can get it back, but it might take another civil war.

  12. #12

    Default Re: State Sovereignty in the United States

    Quote Originally Posted by spiderman101 View Post
    :hmmm: If they lost their power surely they can get it back, but it might take another civil war.
    And if that happened successfully and the states declared their independnece, which was recognised, they would be sovereign. But in the current situation there is no excuse for thinking such an absurd thing.

  13. #13
    nate895's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: State Sovereignty in the United States

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Power they cannot get back. They therefore do not have supreme power over their own affairs, and how they lost it is completely irrelevent.
    Where does it say that in the Constitution?

    Virginia and New York's ordinances of ratification both include a provision stating that they can recall the authorities granted to the Feds at any time, and all states have the same rights. Their ordinances were accepted by the Congress, so why should we believe that the states cannot rescind their delegated powers.

  14. #14

    Default Re: State Sovereignty in the United States

    The states used to have a form of semi-sovereignty until the Civil War. The Civil War tipped the balance of power forever into the favor of the federal government.
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    Default Re: State Sovereignty in the United States

    Semi-sovereignty is an oxymoron.

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    Default Re: State Sovereignty in the United States

    about the civil war not really by the 1880s except for not allowing slavery the states mostly went about buisness as usual. It really wasn't until the 1960s that the scales were tipped. For some reason certain states had a problem with treatring there citizens fairly.
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    Default Re: State Sovereignty in the United States

    I'd say the scales were tipped when the states lost their representation in the Congress when senators became elected by the people rather than the state (state legistatures), a tipping point from republic to democracy of course as well, more's the pity.

    The states were intended to be sovereign in those affairs not delegated to the federal government and early Americans saw themselves as citizens of their states foremost before they described themselves as American.

    Certainly every state has a just cause to remove itself from the concentration of corrupt power the federal government has become because the Constitution has not been adhered to by the latter, which is part of the condition for the union in the first place.
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    Default Re: State Sovereignty in the United States

    it just looks as though states have no soverignty because the feds dangle money in front of the like a carrot to get them to follow federal guidelines, but states can always say FU and not go along. They risk having all federal funding pulled, so while the fed does bully the states around, they are still technically soverign nations bound together by a federal government. States have broad authority over most internal matters, the fed is there to make sure cooperation and in-fighting is keep to a minimum. The US system is not the same as those around the world.

  19. #19

    Default Re: State Sovereignty in the United States

    I think you two should take this to the fight club. Might be interesting.

    Only if you can agree on a definition of sovereignty, however.
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  20. #20
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: State Sovereignty in the United States

    ugh I'm going to post this again in the hope that you stop wasting time on it:


    Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    None of which explains why the states of the USA are sovereign.

    Sovereignty is one of the words least open to interpretation in the entire English language. There is no possible way the states of the USA are sovereign.


    In your opinion and quite possibly the opinion of your and mine peers including the people who write the dictionaries. What is not up for debate is what meaning he assigns the word, and while he might be wrong in his opinion in relation to your interpretation and the interpretation of peers or the majority it certainly doesn't invalidate the meaning he assigns the word in relation to the nature of the states political existence.

    So perhaps you can claim a victory in a greater understanding of what meanings the majority assign to an arbitrary piece of language that denotes an idea but he knew what you and he meant and you knew what he and you meant. Where you differed is not really important as it was all to do with what sound or imagery he assigned to his meaning and you assigned to your meaning.

    Perhaps a victory for the English Language? Perhaps a waste of time.

    Simply agree to disagree on definitions and allow for the other persons meanings. I could understand if you had such vast differences on where the power lies but you don't. We all know the relationship between states, taxation levels and differences in laws and versions of punishment. Clearly there is some self determination that means something and the only the difference is what word people use to describe it.

    The differences in the use of that word has nothing useful to bring with the debate beyond peoples egos. The debate itself though is interesting in asking how this could change the ratio of power between the federal and the state government and how it could affect policy. So based on what I have just read what could you exrapolate changing if these states do continue down this path?

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