Preview of Eriador (outdated)

[marceror]

I understand that Eriador is merely a placeholder faction, but someone there failed at doing things well-the question is, who.

At the end of the day, they're a team, and rise or fall as such. It's worth the team digging in deeper privately, so they can learn from this. But they really need to get on the same page as a team, figure out what their response is, and all be essentially communicating the same message publicly. Instead, the public finger pointing thing is happening among some of the team members, which is plain unproductive. I do know a thing or two about working in/leading teams, and this is my take on the situation at least.

[Hengest]

Well, to be perfectly frank i felt this about Dale, but i don't expect such criticism to be popular. And yes i did try and give constructive critique to change things

[Phunkracy]

At the end of the day, they're a team, and rise or fall as such. It's worth the team digging in deeper privately, so they can learn from this. But they really need to get on the same page as a team, figure out what their response is, and all be essentially communicating the same message publicly. Instead, the public finger pointing thing is happening among some of the team members, which is plain unproductive. I do know a thing or two about working in/leading teams, and this is my take on the situation at least.

I do know that too. Current issues with Eriador are however consequences of team's recklessness/not enough cooperation within the team.

[The Big Red 1]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Nothing was pined directly on you. Notice that your desriptions are very general and nothing has precise shape.

The goal of a Roster is not to tell the Modeller how to do his units precisely, but rather to give him an outline and shape to which he can model his units. I gave KK a list almost exactly like that for Harad and look how that turned out... The goal of a researcher is to set the theme, the modellers have a unique ability to do the faction as they want. We don't infringe upon that right, and as you can see Krechet did the units as he wished.

Where did he blame KK and others? They aren't researchers...

Maybe you should reread the thread, because obviously you hadn't. Some people clearly blamed KK.

I'm not everyone (it would be nice indeed, but I'm not).

Why do you have to take things like I was talking to you? I clearly was not talking to you. I looked at your posts and liked them. This is the second time you have chosen me to attack. What's wrong with me? I was talking mainly to the people who blamed the rest of the team. For 'everyone' else it was a reminder.

First of all, the big mistake was to hire unknown beginner, with very average artistic skills who had to do everything himself. Being newbie (sorry Kretchet) who was completly unwatched by members of the team(I assume that judging from the teammembers reactions), Kretchet refused any help and not even asked for it. I understand that Eriador is merely a placeholder faction, but someone there failed at doing things well-the question is, who.

First of all, the big mistake was getting you guys spoiled rotten so you could not see talent. Krechet has talent. He originally came here to communicate between the Russian and English forums. But, because we could not find anyone else to model for us. He did some units on his own time.

If you have trouble with us hiring a beginner then find us anothe modeller who can model at the rate of Krechet...and at the quality of KK since that's all you accept... You wouldn't be able to. We searched for modellers ourselves and we still did not have enough.

We work together. Krechet was watched, and we liked the progress we saw. We gave critisims when needed, and he did the faction to the best of his abilites. We could ask for no more. But, you say he was unwatched. There is no more to watch..unless you expected us to do the faction for him.


After seeing first preview (Dale) you should definetly realise that he needs someone who would monitor his effort and who would give his work proceed into right direction. Instead, you hired Shved to redone textures and units. Fine, but shouldn't you go further and set more control over Kretchet. He could be better, if it weren't for his own designs and stubborn unwillingness for help (probaly, maybe I went too hard on you, Kreatchet) and his general newbiness.

Here once again shows your ignorance to modding. Do not debate a subject you have little knowledge in. We liked Dale. Dale was a good average faction for a normal Modder. You also do not understand that KK and DG and the others helped Krechet. But modeling must be learned independently sometimes. The modder must experiment.

We did not Hire Shved, He was the original mod leader.

Stubborn Unwillingness? Do you have access to the dev forums? You make generalizations, and they aren't pretty. We as a team are a community. We work together, and fail together. We trusted Krechet, and helped him become a better modeler. I am just sorry he has to put up with guys like you, who constantly say he is not up to par with this mod. Krechet is a friend. We knew he could do it and he excelled. You just are to blind to see what is in front of you. Someone who gave up many hours to this mod. Someone who bonded together with a team from all over the globe. Someone who made great units that you obviously don't appreciate based on your above post, and someone who while no one else had the time for a Third Age Total War mod...while no one else had the time to model 2 factions...completed them.

I stand by Krechet. He is a beginner, but he volunteered. If we had another person to do Dale and Eriador it may have looked a little better sure...but Krechet volunteered, when no one else did. He worked hard on this faction while you looked at the eye candy of TATW and said hey! That must be what all models should look like. Then you lost the picture. You lost the magic of this mod.

The magic that we all love Tolkein and worked hard to please you. I worked hard to please you. KK worked hard to please you. Krechet worked hard to please you...and when you blame us for something that u feel is not GODLY EPIC. You are not just being selfish, and greedy, and spoiled, but also losing the big picture. The picture is that we get satisfaction from doing this work for you, and for the community. A community that does not point fingers. A community that is suspose to be constructive, and not destructive. A community that I love, a community that failed me in this thread.

You said "Who Failed" in the above. The answer is the community.

The team never really pointed fingers. You did.

This is a post I´d refer as "only-for-the-team-eyes".

If you refer to the roster. It was publicly posted, and the rest of the post is to set things straight about how modders should be treated. Sorry if it sounded harsh. I do not like to be blamed for something I did not do.

As everyone feels.

@Moderator: You may merge the above posts.

[Cleitanious]

I think the models are great!

[Phunkracy]

The goal of a Roster is not to tell the Modeller how to do his units precisely, but rather to give him an outline and shape to which he can model his units. I gave KK a list almost exactly like that for Harad and look how that turned out... The goal of a researcher is to set the theme, the modellers have a unique ability to do the faction as they want. We don't infringe upon that right, and as you can see Krechet did the units as he wished.

You gave it to KK, who not only has v. good artistic skills but also had many clear visual references from the movie.

Maybe you should reread the thread, because obviously you hadn't. Some people clearly blamed KK.

But those people aren't Kretchet. Perhaps You should read your previous post and Kretchet's.

Why do you have to take things like I was talking to you? I clearly was not talking to you. I looked at your posts and liked them. This is the second time you have chosen me to attack. What's wrong with me? I was talking mainly to the people who blamed the rest of the team. For 'everyone' else it was a reminder.

Mainly because it's me who started all the whining about the team being partially responsible for unit's quality. The rest well, said that they agree and put something from themselves. Where was the first time I chose you to attack? And the second? I even pointed out that I did not want to blame you.

First of all, the big mistake was getting you guys spoiled rotten so you could not see talent. Krechet has talent. He originally came here to communicate between the Russian and English forums. But, because we could not find anyone else to model for us. He did some units on his own time.

He has, but how's that talent spent? He put so much effort in it and large part of it ws wasted...

If you have trouble with us hiring a beginner then find us anothe modeller who can model at the rate of Krechet...and at the quality of KK since that's all you accept... You wouldn't be able to. We searched for modellers ourselves and we still did not have enough.

We work together. Krechet was watched, and we liked the progress we saw. We gave critisims when needed, and he did the faction to the best of his abilites. We could ask for no more. But, you say he was unwatched. There is no more to watch..unless you expected us to do the faction for him.

Your previous post says quite contrary.

Krechet: You knew that if you needed help you could have asked me. But did you? No. So clearly do not try to take heat off yourself by blaming KK and others. Part of the deal is taking responsibility for your work. ''

Everyone: \Stop saying ohhh... It must be the Researchers fault, or ohhh... it was all KK's fault for not helping. Just because you did not like the units doesn't mean you can bash other members of the team. This was Krechet's work. He had a whole team and community willing to help. It was Krechet who needed to ask for the help instead of saying afterwards "nobody helped me!!!"

Do I missed anything?

Here once again shows your ignorance to modding. Do not debate a subject you have little knowledge in. We liked Dale. Dale was a good average faction for a normal Modder. You also do not understand that KK and DG and the others helped Krechet. But modeling must be learned independently sometimes. The modder must experiment.

However it had many flaws, such as textures, too big weapons, etc etc. Issues, which could be solved. Whole preview was IMO not of average quality, judging from other mods, rather lower average.


Hey, I just became and ignorant on modding!

We did not Hire Shved, He was the original mod leader

My bad, sorry for that mistake.

Stubborn Unwillingness? Do you have access to the dev forums? You make generalizations, and they aren't pretty.

Read your previous post then.

We trusted Krechet, and helped him become a better modeler. I am just sorry he has to put up with guys like you, who constantly say he is not up to par with this mod.

He's not yet as good as he the others. I can clearly see the progress he made-however, is the mod a test field for beginners such as Kretchet's?

You just are to blind to see what is in front of you.

Excellent, constructive, non-offencive criticism right there. Well done!

Someone who gave up many hours to this mod. Someone who bonded together with a team from all over the globe.

I understand that there may be some bonds between you and Kretchet but hey- does it magically change the quality of units? You know, joy of friendship is not the way people will enjoy this mod.

Someone who made great units that you obviously don't appreciate based on your above post, and someone who while no one else had the time for a Third Age Total War mod...while no one else had the time to model 2 factions...completed them

If such ignorant, blind, selfish, greedy, spoiled and whoever you want me to be, on the first glimpse sees obvious flaws of the units which Kretchet made, and-moreover!- meets with support from so many people then perhaps there's something simply wrong.

I stand by Krechet. He is a beginner, but he volunteered. If we had another person to do Dale and Eriador it may have looked a little better sure...but Krechet volunteered, when no one else did. He worked hard on this faction while you looked at the eye candy of TATW and said hey! That must be what all models should look like. Then you lost the picture. You lost the magic of this mod.

Indeed.

The magic that we all love Tolkein and worked hard to please you. I worked hard to please you. KK worked hard to please you. Krechet worked hard to please you...and when you blame us for something that u feel is not GODLY EPIC.

Which could be much better while still done by Kretchet!!!!! Damn, couldn't anybody point out that seledine IS NOT a good faction colour?! That the weapons are too big, textures are too bright, etc etc? That's merely example of all the problems which COULD BE EASILY AVOIDED. How good would Kretchet perform if it weren't for all those small mistakes?! Sorry, I just lost control of myself, bubble of my frustration just bursted...

You are not just being selfish, and greedy, and spoiled, but also losing the big picture. The picture is that we get satisfaction from doing this work for you, and for the community. A community that does not point fingers. A community that is suspose to be constructive, and not destructive. A community that I love, a community that failed me in this thread.

I don't know if you are adressing me or all the users in this forum, but eitherway your post was highly insultive. Keep things civil please.

And much constructive critis was posted there.

[Jean=A=Luc]

Ahhh, the joys of mod communities. My favorite part is how everyone always has a counter-argument to the counter-argument of the counter-argument of their argument.

[Dazo]

Nice said JAL

- Now, it's kinda like Joe Hadleman's "eternal war" famous quote:
question: "Why did you begin the war ?"
answer: "We ?" :hmmm:
- Perhaps it's just time to end it already, let's exit the killzone before there're deads all around .
- It's no use to want to burn someone on the settlement's plaza, the trial will end as seriously as Monty Python's Graal witch hunting where the fact that a wooden duck could sink or not was the utlimate proof of Devilish Behaviour .

+

[The Big Red 1]

Someone made it very hard to respond to this, by posting small phrases instead of long paragraphs, but I will try the best I can.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You gave it to KK, who not only has v. good artistic skills but also had many clear visual references from the movie.

Well there you go, you just answered the question yourself. It is not about the Theme I set up. It's about the skill of the Modder to fully realize his take on the faction

But those people aren't Kretchet. Perhaps You should read your previous post and Kretchet's.

Your rght I should edit that. It was originally you who started placing blame on other team members without an idea about how the team works.

I hereby I apologize to Krechet, that part of my post shall be edited.
[

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

QUOTE] BY YOUIt's not that you're so bad at modding. You're begginer, and thus you simply couldn't do as good units as KK and others. And you had to compete with some best modders in whole TWC.

But I'm angry at the team that it had not gave you enough attention. They should monitor your progress, say what you have to improve/change, give you units concepts and designs, hints etc. At least hire some good artist to help you!

But as I see, they didn't.
I can clearly see the effort you made, and in many times it's just wasted because of inproper unit concepts, lack of experience in modding and chosing the hardest way of doing units possible.

Mainly because it's me who started all the whining about the team being partially responsible for unit's quality. The rest well, said that they agree and put something from themselves. Where was the first time I chose you to attack? And the second? I even pointed out that I did not want to blame you.

I'm sorry I get a little paranoid when I begin debates. You only contradicted me once b4, and that was minor. But that still doesn't change the fact you decided to spark a debate without warrant. So I will have fun with this.

He has, but how's that talent spent? He put so much effort in it and large part of it ws wasted...

Wasted? Wasted? How dare you say Wasted?! He has not only learned a lot about modding, but also about working on a team. He also gave us units which we will use for the first release, while you wait. Sure they will be redone, but NO ONE AND I MEAN NO ONE. Will forget that without Krechet this mod will not be nearly as it is now. From Public Relations to Modeling, he has been there and helped. Nothing on this mod is wasted. He gave his valuable time for these units to make the first release and you call them "Wasted!" Who gives you the right to play Father Time? The right to go about and decide what is not valuable to this day and age. Without just one of the hours that Krechet spent on this mod we would not be here today. No sir. He did not waste, he helped, and he did so as a man, not afraid to learn, or to try. OR even to put himself out there for the wolves to pick out his flesh.

No, he did not waste. For when you say his work is wasted. All our work as a team is wasted. Is this mod a waste? No it is for you. Krechet made his units for you...Is it a waste? No.


Your previous post says quite contrary.

Actually your point makes no sense. Unless you want to have an argument instead of one sentence.

Do I missed anything?

No see above, I realize I mistook Krechet's post for being offensive, because I saw your post attacking the team without reason, and thought it implied he said something. I apologize to him...not to you.

However it had many flaws, such as textures, too big weapons, etc etc. Issues, which could be solved. Whole preview was IMO not of average quality, judging from other mods, rather lower average.


Hey, I just became and ignorant on modding!

Yeah, once again if you could have found us a better modder during that time period then you could consider him bad. But there was no one to model for us, sure he was just starting off, but we had no alternative. So we chose him, and we were impressed with his work.

So let's see. We had no alternative. Why couldn't you have helped instead? Your new at modeling. You could have done it right? Or wait, we could have chosen anyone because we had no alternative. But we knew Krechet could do it, and I bet my bottom dollar that he did it better then anyone could have hoped, and I sure as hell think he did an amzing job.

My bad, sorry for that mistake.
No, Problem
Read your previous post then.

Care to elaborate? I don't understand what you mean when you speak in 1 liners.

He's not yet as good as he the others. I can clearly see the progress he made-however, is the mod a test field for beginners such as Kretchet's?

Yes, he helped us with Public Relations. We gave him a shot at modeling. See we are a team we help each other out. Krechet helped us and we helped him. There is no learning without field practice, and as you can see Krechet has improved tremendously, and has given us GREAT units that you will be playing with in Version 1. Or did you forget?



Excellent, constructive, non-offencive criticism right there.

Your Sarcasm made no point. My statement did. It was neither insult, nor critisim. It was rather a statement about your ability to see what we were putting forth. I was letting you know you were being close minded. If I was going to insult you I would say somethign much harsher to you.

The fact that you felt you needed to bring this up just shows the weakness of your argument, and how you needed to nitpick a very small statement. That is usually a sign of weakness.



I understand that there may be some bonds between you and Kretchet but hey- does it magically change the quality of units? You know, joy of friendship is not the way "people will enjoy this mod."

So know what we do as modders mean nothing to you? Are you truly lost to why we do this. No longer you feel for us. But rather for your enjoyment. Something we will supply, but you take for granted.

Do you not care that your Grandma who is generous to you, has made a new friend at the bingo hall? Or do you just care about your birthday present?

And so now you just don't care, and you will play the mod as a hollow shell. That is fit only to your designs and you will forget we made it. You care nothing for this community only for the mod. I would have this mod be destroyed rather then have this community be destroyed.

Because I care what you enjoy, care for what I enjoy about modding...



If such ignorant, blind, selfish, greedy, spoiled and whoever you want me to be, on the first glimpse sees obvious flaws of the units which Kretchet made, and-moreover!- meets with support from so many people then perhaps there's something simply wrong.

Your "first Glimpse" was in the right...

But it is your blame that kills your point. You wrongfully blamed the entire team for Krechets work, and you blamed Krechet himself. Why? You decided to change this into a mod about your interests and not anyone elses. You decided that because these units did not meet your expectations that YOU must go and blame everything.

Is there no end? Do you not see what you have done. Critisim is one thing, blame is another. Blame is when you need to act out against someone because you were disappointed.


Indeed.

Which could be much better while still done by Kretchet!!!!! Damn, couldn't anybody point out that seledine IS NOT a good faction colour?! That the weapons are too big, textures are too bright, etc etc? That's merely example of all the problems which COULD BE EASILY AVOIDED. How good would Kretchet perform if it weren't for all those small mistakes?! Sorry, I just lost control of myself, bubble of my frustration just bursted...

I remember a conversation when I said that green color was nasty. Of course that is because Krechet was rushing to release the faction for the release date that was wanted. In fact I saw that photo a few days before the preview. We saw very little samples of his work, and then we critiqued the best we could, but in the end release was getting closer and we knew that progress could not be halted any longer, and that we had no one else to do the faction. (maybe you should have volunteered..oh wait) So the faction was previewed, and you disliked that which was given to you freely. That is fine. But, you then blamed the team for your troubles, and said that we had wronged Krechet our friend and had not helped him. Now that Sir is insulting.


For Krechet did which was in his abilites, and he offered to help. If you blame us for the issues of this faction; make your own faction, and place it in the game and your blame will be rightfully so. Until that time you acted out of selfishness, not of generosity.

I don't know if you are adressing me or all the users in this forum, but eitherway your post was highly insultive. Keep things civil please.
Hahahahaha...once again. I have not insuted you. Your just looking for an easy way out of the argument. The truth hurts they say.... I would also ask you to report me to a forum moderator if I have insulted you...Do it.

And much constructive critis was posted there.
Indeed [/quote]

[/color]

[Pvt. Parts]

Everybody stop now. It's just a huge mass of jumbled writing. Use PM's if you feel the need to prove your manhood or something.

[The Big Red 1]

Everybody stop now. It's just a huge mass of jumbled writing. Use PM's if you feel the need to prove your manhood or something.

Should I use spoilers? These deserve to be in the public. I am defending this mod, not trying to screw it up.

[marceror]

The issue is, these kinds of discussions just never end up helping anything, and typically do more damage than good. If I were mod, I'd either lock this thread for a while, or clean up 10% of the posts in it with a strict warning. But if the back and forth is something that's going to be allowed to continue, I'll probably just ignore this thread for a week or so, in hopes that it dies down naturally. Anytime "posts" turn into "essays" it's a pretty good idea that a thread has gotten off the track.

This situation just is what it is. Any defending that was warranted has already been put out there. Beyond that, we're really just beating a dead horse. Just my opinion, of course, but I think it's best to let this discussion die.

[Jaguar6]

Should I use spoilers? These deserve to be in the public. I am defending this mod, not trying to screw it up.:wink:

No, actually you are both screwing things up. No offense to anybody, but Phunkracy just stated his opinion on the units and pointed out there flaws, and Big Red you kind of put the blame on Krechet yourself, nobody said your roster was bad. This has gone too far, and I don't want to report this, you are both just throwing insults at each others insults, and have are no longer even talking about the the point of the thread, Krechet's work on Eriador.

This thread was meant for constructive criticism and showing of the team's, in this case Krechet's, work to the forum's members, so let's talk about that, instead of trying to shread eachother for pointless reasons.

Sorry if I seem harsh.

The issue is, these kinds of discussions just never end up helping anything, and typically do more damage than good. If I were mod, I'd either lock this thread for a while, or clean up 10% of the posts in it with a strict warning. But if the back and forth is something that's going to be allowed to continue, I'll probably just ignore this thread for a week or so, in hopes that it dies down naturally. Anytime "posts" turn into "essays" it's a pretty good idea that a thread has gotten off the track.

This situation just is what it is. Any defending that was warranted has already been put out there. Beyond that, we're really just beating a dead horse. Just my opinion, of course, but I think it's best to let this discussion die.

I completely agree with you.

[The Big Red 1]

No, actually you are both screwing things up. No offense to anybody, but Phunkracy just stated his opinion on the units and pointed out there flaws, and Big Red you kind of put the blame on Krechet yourself,nobody said your roster was badThis has gone too far, and I don't want to report this, you are both just throwing insults [/del]at each others insults, and have are no longer even talking about the the point of the thread, Krechet's work on Eriador.

This thread was meant for constructive criticism and showing of the team's, in this case Krechet's, work to the forum's members, so let's talk about that, instead of trying to shread eachother for pointless reasons.

Sorry if I seem harsh.

I completely agree with you.

Okay, if that's how you feel I will stop. But, I can argue with that post you just made.

The thing is you have to know when to stop and I guess I have overstepped those boundaries. But if I see anything that discredits the team or sounds disrespectful without due cause, I will bring down the hammer again. Let this be a warning.

P.S. Try to be Bipartisan next time you post something like that. It makes it so both sides have no regrets and things can continue as normal.

Edit: Plus it's late, I'm sure I said some pretty stupid things. Then again I'm always hard on myself.

[GatorMarine1833]

I just want to say that hearing a lot of this almost makes me want to quit modding. These people are putting there work out in the public hoping that people will like and appreciate it, even if it isn't a masterpiece. It's like telling someone you're in love with them only to have them tell you that it was a waste of time for you to say it and that they don't care.

Other than that, I think these models are really good, especially for a beginner, and I remember when my units looked like that. Modelling and skinning is not easy, there's a lot intricacies that take a VERY experienced hand to really make look great. While there are some details that could change, I do like this faction, and given the lack of material to base this off of it looks very good.

[grumpygoat]

I really cant believe there are people complaining and BLAMING the team. The ones who did it are acting like spoiled kids, complaining about a GIFT given by the modders. In Brazil we have a proverb: "You don't check the teeth of a horse that was given to you." This doesn't apply to constructive criticism!

NOTE: When i say this I don't have a distinct person in mind, I'm saying this in general, with no wish to start another personal discussion.

[BlackViper]

Okey first of all I care about my generous grandma and her friend at the bingo hall
Okey then to some of you stop bashing Kretchet...(or how did you call it?)
He did a pretty good job. See it like this he made factions who would otherwise not even be in the mod... So I rather get this one who will get some improvements. Honestly I can't see why people are angry about this and go blame everyone. I suppose that is human nature? You saw all those nice previews of king kong and alletun and the others. Then kretchet posted Dale. Okey not what you thought it would be. But some of you saw it wasn't bad work. Just needed some improvement.
Then Eriador came out. It was better then Dale. But most of you expected it to be like the work of KK and others... Honestly that is not fair at all...
It is difficult to make this stuff and you can't expect the work of KK from a beginner. I don't even see whats wrong with dale and eriador just some little tweaks and they are good enough for me. I will play with them and I will fight against them. So whats the big deal if you don't like it make your own units. Or just delete them out of your campaign or do I know what... Just don't blame this guys they don't deserve this.
To big red one nice essay I read most of it.

So I won't post here until you guys are normal again and not posting like Kretchet work is a waste because that hurts remember we are posting and talking with each other for fun... Not to bash the moderators because the work they deliver is not the work you wanted... They are putting so much time in this project and 1 things just 1 foking thing goes wrong and everyone is bashing each other like freaking morrons...
I will skip this part of the forum for some time...

Greetz, BlackViper.

[Incan]

ya black viper and big red 1 have it right, i cant believe some people

[helmersen]

Looks very good

[Fev]

Couldn't you use that Gondor Ranger model for the Dunedain Rangers and edit it a little?