Ideas for Kingdom of Poland

**Taro_M** · February 25, 2009, 04:00 PM

As far
concerned SS aims to bring realism and balance to Medieval 2 thats why I would like to bring this into your attention:

To: Creative Assembly & Sega Europe Dear CA,

I Introduction

The Total War games have been immensely popular in Poland. One example of this popularity is our forum - totalwar.org.pl – the biggest non-English speaking TW forum in the world, with more than 6 K of Polish users and frequent visitors. The creation of the latest installment of the series, i.e. Medieval II has been thoroughly observed by our users right from the beginning. With the Kingdom of Poland as a playable faction Medieval II has gained much popularity with Polish players. Nonetheless, the premiere was a bitter pill to swallow, since Poland has been presented with no historical accuracy, to put it mildly. Moreover, the abundance of errors in the game code has reduced its potential playability. This has been hugely improved, however, with the two patches that have been released. Yet, the Polish troop roster has remained ahistorical. The announcement of Kingdoms - the first expansion to M2 gave a new hope for the thousands of Polish players. One of the campaigns – the Teutonic Campaign features the Kingdom of Poland - one of the main actors in the conflict between the Paganism and Christendom. This is what is seemed like for the Polish, who cherish their own history. It was a Polish prince who invited the Order to Prussia. Polish princes were the main allies of the Order at the beginning of its expansion. It was Poland that became the greatest foe of the Order, after it turned on our country. The Polish contingent at the biggest battle of Teutonic wars – the battle of Grunwald (Tannenberg) was the largest one. It was Poland that ultimately defeated and reduced the Order to vassalage. From the historical point of view the Teutonic wars were the conflict between basically three factions: the Teutonic Order, pagan Lithuania and the betrayed Kingdom of Poland. That is why, we, the Polish, believed that in regard of the prominent role of our country in the conflict discussed, the Polish troop roster will be approached with far more greater care and attention than in M2. Unfortunately, trailers, developer diaries, screens and all promotional material for Kingdoms prove that the role of Poland will be once more peripheral. The two new and key factions in the campaign – the Order and Lithuania will be awarded an excellent all-around troops. Poland on the other hand - the third main faction in the conflict retains the poor and ahistorical roster from Medieval II. The Polish players felt obliged to react to this outrageous injustice. That is why we have decided to create this petition.

II Poland in Medieval II and Kingdoms

The Polish troop roster is at least controversial and, to put it mildly, it cannot achieve a positive mark, so to speak. Its picture of medieval Polish armies is a distortion of truth and what is more, Poland in the game is far more weaker than it was during the actual medieval period. On the one hand, the huge set of effective cavalry units is in line with the historical significance and power of Polish cavalry and its leading role in Polish armies. On the other hand, Polish infantry is the weakest one in the game. It lacks many important and historical units. What’s more, the appearance of the remaining infantry is simplified or even fictional. To put the long story short, the Polish troop roster is ahistorical to such an extent that the Polish players cannot enjoy playing Polish campaign, being disgusted with the false representation of Poland in the game instead. We do understand that M2 is only a game, which implies that playability may sometimes be more important than historical accuracy. Still, the extent to which the representation of Poland is distorted is that great that it is impossible to justify it with talking about playability and balancing the gameplay. In M2 Poland situation is acceptable, since it is surrounded by rebel regions, which opens possibilities for an expansion without a conflict with any major power. We came to a conclusion that the composition of the Polish roster is the result of this beneficial location, but also of the lack of knowledge on Polish history in the case of the game creators. However, in Kingdoms, Poland’s situation is totally different. Now, the location of Poland will no longer help the player - it will turn into his great disadvantage. Poland is tightly surrounded by factions with far greater military power. To the West, there’s HRE with excellent all-around units and at least Burger Pikemen coming on in Kingdoms. To the North, there’s Denmark with arguably the best infantry in the game and these three Norwegian units coming. On the Northern border, there’s the Teutonic Order with versatile and powerful army (this is what we see in promotional materials). To the East, there's Lithuania with completely ahistorical units, e.g. technologically much better and more powerful infantry than Poland. To The South finally, there is the Golden Horde with excellent cavalry, which in missile variant is simply the best in its sort. With such location and troops the fate of Poland in the game is sealed, as it will inevitably fall prey to its neighbors. This proves the gameplay unbalanced, since Poland stands no chance against its rivals. This is in contrast with historical facts, as the medieval Kingdom of Poland was the dominant power in the Central Europe and at the dawn of Renaissance became one of the greatest powers in Europe. To conclude, in order to sustain a balance between the factions in the game and make it realistic to the greatest possible extent, in Kingdoms Poland should be given the lacking units that are based on its history. Only by doing so, can the Teutonic Campaign have balance between rival nations, high playability and historical realism.

III Polish roster in M2 and history

Polish cavalry in M2 is presented quite accurately in respect of its variety. The lack of feudal knight is a gross negligence, since it was the main force in medieval Poland. The lack of light cavalry is strange – it wasn’t a main force though, but it was a part of central European armies. Yet, there is much to complain about the appearance of the cavalry. Shooters need an upgrade with plate armour, Polish Guard needs Gothic or Renaissance armour and Polish Retainers need Slavic helmets (the szlom). The Lithuanian cavalry has been falsely represented, since that faction didn’t have their own horse archers. They “borrowed” such units from the conquered lands, so the man fighting there were of Russian or Tartar origin. The units that have been presented accurately are Polish Nobles (the mounted version), Polish Knights (we would welcome introducing Polish costs of arms on their shields) and Hussars.
Still, the Polish infantry is unacceptable, since it is completely inaccurate with history and understates the value of Polish infantry. The lack of pikes, heavy two-handed axes, two-handed swords and war hammers is, of course, in line with historical facts. The dismounted Polish knights and spearmen have been presented fairly enough. But this is where accuracy ends. Poland lacks effective crossbow units – crossbow was immensely popular in Poland since the XII century. Instead of Lithuanian Archers Poland should have its own archers with better missile attack and mailed armour. Archers were very popular even until the XIII century and continued to be part of Polish armies afterwards. The lack of mail swordsmen is an outrage. Presenting Polish Nobles as spearmen is a complete distortion of truth and seems almost like making fun of Polish nobility of that time. Poland also lacks its specific – central European units – unique and versatile. The lack of a one-handed axe is incomprehensible, since it was popular as an ancillary weapon both with knights and the plebeian infantry.
To conclude, Polish troop roster is historically inaccurate; the value of Polish troops is much lower than in reality; Polish army is far less versatile. Polish infantry is the weakest one in the game, which puts a player to the position where they have to rely only on cavalry – the gameplay becomes than, to put it in a diplomatic way, uninteresting. The latest poll on TWCenter showed that Polish gameplay is very unattractive. The participants decided that, together with Hungary, Poland is the least interesting faction to play.

IV Polish Military Forces in the Middle Ages

There was a number of factors that influenced Polish medieval armies.
- Feudalism as military system
- Indigenous – Slavic warfare traditions
- Neighboring cultures, most notably, the Western technology on which Poland based its weaponry
- War experience with various adversaries. Medieval Poland fought many various enemies. (no other European country had to face and adjust to such variety of enemies): HRE, Bohemia, the Veleti, Hungary, Moldova, Turkey, the Golden Horde (Poland survived 3 Mongol invasions in XIII century), Kievian Rus, the Prussians and the Teutonic Order.
- High heterogeneity of Poland, resulting in different warfare styles. The most notable examples are:
♦ Mazovia with cavalry and melee infantry influenced by the Lithuanians,
♦ Silesia - a wealthy region under the influence of Bohemia and HRE,
♦ Gdańsk and Kashubian region with the influence of the Balts.
♦ Halychan Rus with it polonized populace that nonetheless kept their Russian warfare traditions.
Polish armies were a compilation of the mentioned ingredients. On the one hand, Poland was a country of Western warfare. On the other hand, it often used Western technology in its own unique way, enriching it with eastern elements. Thus, Polish armies were very complex in terms of structure and were made up of many unit types.

V Our proposals

We are fully aware that Poland is only one of the nations featured in Kingdoms and that the work on the expansion pack is already in progress. So we do realize that CA has limited time. That’s why we do not ask for the complete makeover of the Polish roster but for adding a few new units that will:
- Make Polish roster more historical
- Be unique and will render its Western-Slavic character
- Increase the playability of the Polish campaign
- Not infringe the balance between Poland and other nations, on the contrary - will improve the quality of gameplay
Our aim is not only giving Poland more historical roster, but also making it more attractive as a faction in Medieval II/Kingdoms – giving it its unique Western-Slavic character. We don’t desire to make Poland a game superpower, but want to make its roster richer, more interesting and historically accurate. This would make Polish gameplay much more attractive and absorbing. Therefore, we present to you ideas of a few units that would introduce the changes we advocate.

VI Poland’s Coat of Arms

Poland’s coat of arms is another matter. We were happy to see that with our earlier petition the Lithuanian emblem has been changed to the Polish eagle. Yet, we wish to point your attention to the fact that the eagle looks the wrong way. It should look right.

VII Historical Facts

We point your attention to historical key-events of the Teutonic Wars. The first of them was the Polish Lithuanian Union of Krewo in 1385. This was a personal union and the Lithuanian Grand Duke married Jadwiga - the heiress to the Polish throne, thus becoming the king of Poland and uniting both countries. He also promised to convert Lithuania to Christianity. This resulted in cooperative effort of the Polish and Lithuanians in the war against the Order, with the common victory at Grunwald (Tannenberg). Another important events are Prussian uprisings that endangered Teutonic existence in Prussia. With the uprising of 1454, soon joined by Poland – asked by the union of Prussian cities to incorporate Prussia to the Kingdom of Poland – that the 13 years War began – bringing the ultimate defeat of the Order. As the result of this war, Gdańsk Pomerania and part of Prussia joined Poland as Royal Prussia province and the remaining part of Prussia became the Duchy of Prussia, with the Order becoming the vassal of Poland.

VIII Proposed changes in the Polish roster – new units

1. (+) Dismounted Polish Shooters. Armoured as the present mounted version, i.e. a crossbow+a Lithuanian pavise+ 1H axe. We suggest a potential upgrade with part-plate armour as in the case of the Western mounted crossbowmen. Such shooter needs a better shot than crossbow militia (circa 12) and good melee attack and defense (ap feature thanks to the axe).
http://www.koc.pl/Grunwald1.jpg
2. (+) Shield Halberdiers. This unit is an example of how effectively Poland assimilated Military trends from neighboring countries with its own warfare traditions. This is the “offspring” of the early medieval Polish spearman - Tarczownik - with a large rectangular shield known from Polish Nobles – for instance. It has the same shield as its predecessor, but instead of spear this unit wields a weapon that is a mix of the Western halberd and the Eastern berdiche. Yet, the unit in question is better armoured as the chain mail garment gained large popularity in Poland as soon as in XII century. It was a universal unit – proved effective both against the infantry and cavalry.
http://photo.163.com/photos/he3hai/3...549/#924113154
3. (+) Piast Knights. Early Polish Feudal Knights (XI-XIV century). An excellent example of first Western influence in Poland – the revolution that began with the feudalism’s introduction. The unit is armoured as the older druzhina (similarly to Polish Nobles) but fights with a Western weapons – a sword, a triangular shield and a short lance typical of Western Feudal Knights. It can be a fair match for them in a battle.
http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?i...iiiwiekwa9.jpg
4. (=) Dismounted Polish Nobles. They should be changed from spearmen to javelinmen, fighting with sword in a melee. This would only require changing the animation/ the way the present unit fights.
5. (+). Dismounted Polish Retainers. Swordsmen with chain mail garment. The equivalent of Western dismounted feudal knights. One could as well introduce the Dismounted Piast Knights instead.
6. (+) Mazovian Cavalry. A regional unit showing the heterogeneity of Poland. Middle cavalry influenced by Lithuanian style of warfare. Charging with a cavalry spear (called ‘spisa’), in melee a sword and a Lithuanian pavise. Scale armour/Leaf Mail and the Pilleus Ferreus Helmet
http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=14nbam7.jpg
http://photo.163.com/photos/he3hai/3...875/#924127063
7. (=) Polish Guard. The current appearance of this unit suggest that in XVI century Poland lagged behind technologically, which, obviously isn't true. We ask for the amour to be changed to a gothic-renaissance one. The weapons and the character of the unit should be sustained.
http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?i...281380kkr8.jpg
http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=polakzm4.jpg
8. (+) Piast Archers. Equipped with a bit longer (circa 1.2 - 1.4m) bow than the Lithuanian archers , with a better shot and range. Similar melee fighting skills as the Lithuanian Archers but a bit better armour. We recommend a shield (on the back during the shooting). In melee fighting we propose a sword or a one-handed axe.
http://img122.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pol28fugx7.jpg
http://img408.imageshack.us/my.php?image=307xg.jpg
9. (-) Lithuanian Archers – to remove.
10. (-) Lithuanian Cavalry – to remove.
11. (-) Dismounted Lithuanian Cavalry – to remove.

We propose enriching the Polish roster with: 6 new units, change of animation in the case of 1 unit, change of the appearance of 1 unit and removal of 3 units. All in all Poland would acquire 3 units and the total number would be 29. To compare, HRE has already 29 in M2 and in Kingdoms is given at least 1 more, Denmark with 28 and 3 new Norwegian units in Kingdoms. The units we suggest are not the best in their class – we do not ask for a superpower Poland. Numbers 1, 4 and 5 do not require any work – the models are already in the game, the character is a bit different, though.
Numbers 3, 7 and 8 can be obtained at least by the already existing models and textures. Only numbers 2 and 6 would require more work. Number two is immensely important for us. We propose the removal of numbers 9, 10 and 11, as Lithuania becomes a faction in Kingdoms.

These unit proposals are what we consider to be priority. They were selected from many propositions after a long and tumultuous debate. Should the CA team have any questions or wish to find more about the historical Polish units, we would be happy to help with CA make the game more realistic and in this way, more attractive. In the case of any questions, please, contact us.

IX The Sources
Here are the links to pictures of Polish warriors and knights of XI-XVI centuries.
Flags from the battle of Grunwald (Tannenberg)
http://photo.163.com/photos/he3hai/33821390#p28
Medieval polish weaponry:
ttp://img380.imageshack.us/img380/8886/zbrojepolskiezxivwjn8.jpg
Silesian Knight:
http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?im...nuj0001fk9.jpg
Halberd militiaman from Krakow:
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9...dmilitaov6.jpg
Pavise spearman, Polish pikeman:
http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?im...cz261teor5.jpg
Polish troops of 1410 (among them, a pavise spearman)
http://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?im...poczxvwpk8.jpg
Polish infantry of XIV and XV centuries:
http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ubir1tf2.jpg
Polish infantry of XVI century:
http://img405.imageshack.us/my.php?i...oczxviwpf8.jpg
http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?i...czxviw2jf5.jpg
Mazovian infantry, a feudal knight, a crossbowman:
http://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?i...landjpgvn1.jpg
Feudal knights”
http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=268zh.jpg
Piast Druzhina (the Predecessors of Polish feudal knights):
http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=154we.jpg
Early Piast feudal knights:
http://www.signum-polonicum.com.pl/i...rycerz13w1.jpg
http://www.signum-polonicum.com.pl/i...rycerz13w2.jpg
http://www.signum-polonicum.com.pl/img/tn_rycerz13w.jpg
The weapons of Levée en masse (pospolite ruszenie):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...n_piechoty.JPG
Polish infantry from the battle of Grunwald:
http://www.album-grunwaldzki.iq.pl/u...a/uzbroje5.jpg
http://www.album-grunwaldzki.iq.pl/u...a/uzbroje6.jpg
http://www.album-grunwaldzki.iq.pl/u...a/uzbroje7.jpg
http://www.album-grunwaldzki.iq.pl/u...a/uzbroje8.jpg
Mazovian cavalry:
http://www.kawaleria.pulsar.net.pl/p...ew/dobre/3.jpg
A Polish knight and a crossbowman
http://img528.imageshack.us/my.php?i...y380ackxb2.jpg
Polish knight and late medieval infantryman:
http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?i...erzpolsee7.jpg
Early medieval Polish troops (the Piast troops):
http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?i...boles32gv3.jpg
http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?i...boles32xx8.jpg
http://img225.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ynnikkocx2.jpg
Swordsmen infantry:
http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?i...s322awalh6.jpg
A Polish feudal knight:
http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?i...322omximn6.jpg

Summary

This petition is the voice of concern from thousands of Polish TW fans greatly disappointed with the outrageous treatment of Poland in Medieval II/Kingdoms – lack of care and historical accuracy. It presents historical data, points out the playability aspects that advocate the enrichment of Polish roster with new units. The authors present the list of selected Polish units and are convinced that their introduction will increase the realism of the gameplay and playability of the game - make it more attractive. In the case, it wasn't possible to respond to all our proposals we would gladly invite you to a discussion with our community: redakcja@totalwar.org.pl
Polish fans of TotalWar series

I fully support this petition also there are some pretty good ideas for Poland. Also most of them dont need that much of modding (most of needed resources are already in game), note that I only want to bring this into your attention, Poland in SS lacks a bit since their lithuanian
units are taken away (absence of lithuanian archers really hurts)

Please respond to my message.

**Nightbringer** · February 25, 2009, 11:47 PM

hurrah!
i remember there was quite a movement to improve poland in ss a while back but it never seemed to go anywhere. im an american but my ancestry is largely polish and it has always disapointed me that they received such disapointing treatment in this game.

**Massive_attack** · February 26, 2009, 12:08 AM

The polish faction has always been balls. I have never played that faction, to be honest it sucks. I support this petition as well, it would make it interesting.

**Galain_Ironhide** · February 26, 2009, 03:15 AM

Well, all it would take would be for someone to create a sub mod for ss, creating the units that you would like to see. Much like the"Complete Byzantine Roster".

Haha

I used the term - "all it would take", - it would'nt be that easy a task at all, but if somebody had the modelling expertise it can be achieved.

**Gorrrrrn** · February 26, 2009, 05:54 AM

I doubt CA will be making any more changes to M2TW as they have empires:tw to work on now.

So this can only be remedied by modding teams.

If anyone can produce the relevant units to the required standard then I'm certain (well I'd guess anyway) that they could be incorporated into SS or maybe the battle for the baltic sub-mod (v2.00 is being started so suggest the required units to them?)

**Taro_M** · February 26, 2009, 06:31 AM

I put this petition here because it have ideas for new units for poland. I already checked few things and they can be done without huge amount of work:

- Dismounted Polish Shooters - easily done, there is even tutorial for that. Armor upgrade is little more work but you can take ether upgraded crossbowman model or halabardier in halfplate

- Shield Halberdiers - weapon model needs to be made, they should have something like heavy bill militia. They should look like spear militia but with rectangular shield and have their two upgrades but also possibility of upgrading with plate

- Piast Knights - should be equivalent of feudal knights. Start look similar to husclars (they have scale mail) at start, then somewhat like Sergeant swordsman, and plate upgrade? Also there should be dismounted unit

-Dismounted Polish Nobles - model needs to be changed (to change weapon), besides that it can easily done

-Dismounted Polish Retainers - same as shooters but also should have full plate upgrade

- Mazovian Cavalry - this will be poland light cavalry, in SS they are pretty easy to make since Lithuania is in game and their units can be used. At first Mazovian Cavalry would look like EE militia (east european) but with rectangular shield, the upgrade with light mail (dunno how they should look) and heavy mail upgrade that would make them look like Lithuanian regular swordsman
Poland DONT have early light cavalry (with is really really weird for me)

- Polish Guard - well since there is lots of units in gothic armour out there i dont see a problem. Also there should be dismounted unit

- Piast Archers - in SS poland dont have ANY other archer then peasant archers and this HURTS. At start they look like EE upgraded militia (tanned leather) but with bigger bow, then light mail upgrade and finally heavy mail upgrade, with would make them look similar to french archers
---------------

Yeah I know that I just propose to put units that simply are models for different units, but why shouldnt we? They look similar and will fill the holes in poland roster.

**Caesar Clivus** · February 26, 2009, 06:39 AM

There is work being done on some units for Poland...can't really say any more than that...in fact maybe I've already said too much...

...oh no! They found me!! Tell my wife I....

*END TRANSMISSION*

**Taro_M** · February 26, 2009, 06:58 AM

Damn it! They got him!
Remember THEY are everywhere!

But seriously now: Where is discussion concerning poland units? I would like to drop a few comments. I would like to play full SS campaign, but since Poland roster have so much holes and is totally underpowered compared to HRE or Novogrod, I simply dont have too much willingness to play such faction (and I only play with poland)

**Sargon_of_Akkad** · February 26, 2009, 08:23 AM

If you are going to make a point, do so without resorting to insults.

- Caesar Clivus

**delra** · February 26, 2009, 07:42 AM

List of wishes:

- Tabardiyya
- Guard Pikemen
- Basque Archers
- Neffatun
...

**Taro_M** · February 26, 2009, 12:57 PM

So middle ages are only England, France and HRE?

Im not some "patriotic freak" I only want to enjoy playing Poland in SS but I cant, after their Lithuanian units are gone Poland became very weak, another thing is that Poland, despite having "good cavalry" does not posses any early light cavalry: Danes and other european have scouts and Novgorod have mounted militia.

Yes there is modding community in Poland but I put this thread here, in home forum of mod that is responsible for this situation (by taking Lithuanian units away), in vanilla Poland, despite having ahistorical roster had much more balance. I gave you proposition for units to fill those holes, Im slowly working things out to try do some of this stuff myself.

Sargon_of_Akkad, and what if we obsessed about Poland's prominence in middle ages, what are you going to do about that? Tell us to stay quiet?
In middle ages Poland was pretty powerful but later we got behind. Games like Medieval give peoples chance to deliver "justice" to whom they see fit (you raiding HRE "Do you remember germanization?" "No?" " But I do! DIE BASTARDS!!!"). I play Medieval because I like games that turn history upside down and kick it down the stairs (in sense of how things went, not how it was), I really loved moment when my polish invasion fleet appeared at shores of England or when I turned Poland into nation that possessed all islands on Mediterranean.
You can ask:why do you bother with units historical accuracy then?
Because I want to see what could I do, with way Poland would go. Would they keep sitting in europe or invade England (this never cease to make me chuckle) or just ditch provinces in europe and take over Mediterranean. All of this with resources they had available then.

Note that your as well my way of thinking is faulty, but I dont want to start to argue. I only communicated that this problem exist and it should be worked out, I even gave you proposition how to do that.

**Awellesley** · February 26, 2009, 01:16 PM

People need to understand that when people make comments about countries in this forum, they are talking about their representation in the game, it is not meant to be an ethnic slight. There is not one group of people better than any other, so move past this.

If people are concerned about the historical accuracy of the rosters, please feel free to develop your own roster and it may be incorporated in the future. There are numerous examples in these forums of many people doing just that (CBUR, BFTB, Ruschi, Bulgaria TW, etc.). This mod is way too big for any one person to completely redo all the rosters. Please keep this in mind. We are all friends here.

**Sargon_of_Akkad** · February 27, 2009, 02:57 AM