Pikes need a nerf? Counters do not cut it.

[Tacitursa]

So ive read all of the counters and how to deal with them and used them to some effect. The counters just seem like too much hassle and you have to sacrifice on a 2:1 ratio to kill pikes.

Pikes just slaughter everything apart from archers. And archers are the only decent counter.

I sent an almost full stack to brughes and lost half of my army to 3 Flemish pike rebel units.

I need some real decent counters. "archers own pikes" just seems like theorycraft to me. Archers do not kill all the pikes just a few , to kill the ammount of pikes i come across you'd need full stacks of archers.

[Viscule]

So ive read all of the counters and how to deal with them and used them to some effect. The counters just seem like too much hassle and you have to sacrifice on a 2:1 ratio to kill pikes.

Pikes just slaughter everything apart from archers. And archers are the only decent counter.

I sent an almost full stack to brughes and lost half of my army to 3 Flemish pike rebel units.

I need some real decent counters. "archers own pikes" just seems like theorycraft to me. Archers do not kill all the pikes just a few , to kill the ammount of pikes i come across you'd need full stacks of archers.

Normally i try to route pikemen, as its quite easy. But a charge into their back kills off ALOT of them depending on what kind of pikemen they are, while you have a infantry unit infront. Usually takes them sometime to turn around or to start attacking you so you can pull the cavalry back. You will lose around 3-4 cavalry units. But comparing 30 soldiers to 3-4 cav is nothing.

In a infantry fight i use shielded infantry to kill pikemen.

[nostradamouse]

So ive read all of the counters and how to deal with them and used them to some effect. The counters just seem like too much hassle and you have to sacrifice on a 2:1 ratio to kill pikes.

Pikes just slaughter everything apart from archers. And archers are the only decent counter.

I sent an almost full stack to brughes and lost half of my army to 3 Flemish pike rebel units.

I need some real decent counters. "archers own pikes" just seems like theorycraft to me. Archers do not kill all the pikes just a few , to kill the ammount of pikes i come across you'd need full stacks of archers.

Send peasants to thier front, use something like light swordmens on their flanks.

They'll die fairly quick. Also, do the same and attack to the rear with heavy cavalry.

Anything that hits the front of the pikemen is gonna take heavy casualties

[Viscule]

Send peasants to thier front, use something like light swordmens on their flanks.

They'll die fairly quick. Also, do the same and attack to the rear with heavy cavalry.

Anything that hits the front of the pikemen is gonna take heavy casualties

Really? I never see that many casualties. The only problem is that the unit has to get close before the pikemen start attacking. As my cav is behind them (Not attacking, but close to them) they turn around which opens their back to my infantry. Making them vurnerable and i never lose alot of my infantry.

[nostradamouse]

Really? I never see that many casualties. The only problem is that the unit has to get close before the pikemen start attacking. As my cav is behind them (Not attacking, but close to them) they turn around which opens their back to my infantry. Making them vurnerable and i never lose alot of my infantry.

What I meant is that the Light swordsmen are going to make a quick job of the pikes.

And that it was possible to do the same with cavalry

[Point Blank]

I'm working on an animation-based solution:
-increased time in 'ready' pose so more time between attacks
-slightly slowed attacks
-some additional 'ready' time if necessary at the start and end of attack animatiions

The combination should be able to reduce their effect somewhat, eg even 20% changes could make quite a difference in battle results, I'm sure there are other things that could be done with anims also.

But otherwise best to fight them with armored polearm units or other pikes. Or guns.

[Sargon_of_Akkad]

I hate to say it, but that was entirely the point of pike units. They were virtually invincible from the front, but horrendously weak on the sides and rear.

[Viscule]

I hate to say it, but that was entirely the point of pike units. They were virtually invincible from the front, but horrendously weak on the sides and rear.

What he said.

[Tetsu]

So ive read all of the counters and how to deal with them and used them to some effect. The counters just seem like too much hassle and you have to sacrifice on a 2:1 ratio to kill pikes.

Seem like too much hassle? Erm... am I missing something here? The point of it is to use strategies and tactics that are valid in the situation. Saying that it's a 'hassle' to counter pikes seems like a weak excuse to nerf them in the public mod. Theres plenty of instructions on here about how to mod your game to your taste, maybe you should look into that?

As to the topic of pikes, they were used irl for that reason, they are a nightmare to charge. Flank flank flank!

[Ferrus]

Wat Tetsu said... FOR TANITH! 1ST AND ONLY!

[Viscule]

Seem like too much hassle? Erm... am I missing something here? The point of it is to use strategies and tactics that are valid in the situation. Saying that it's a 'hassle' to counter pikes seems like a weak excuse to nerf them in the public mod. Theres plenty of instructions on here about how to mod your game to your taste, maybe you should look into that?

As to the topic of pikes, they were used irl for that reason, they are a nightmare to charge. Flank flank flank!

What he said.

[Musthavename]

Pikes just slaughter everything apart from archers. And archers are the only decent counter.

You just stated the solution to your own problem.

I need some real decent counters. "archers own pikes" just seems like theorycraft to me. Archers do not kill all the pikes just a few , to kill the ammount of pikes i come across you'd need full stacks of archers.

Just concentrate fire on the pikes. A pike units strength lies in it's formation. If it's numbers are cut substantially, it's surrounded, the formation breaks, and their strengths are rendered useless. The key simply is, make sure you can attack somewhere other than the "pointy" end!

[Tacitursa]

I hate to say it, but that was entirely the point of pike units. They were virtually invincible from the front, but horrendously weak on the sides and rear.

Yeah but as soon as you attack from the sides or rear they turn around. Ive surrounded pikes numerous times and still they take a 3:1 kill/death ratio.

Just concentrate fire on the pikes. A pike units strength lies in it's formation. If it's numbers are cut substantially, it's surrounded, the formation breaks, and their strengths are rendered useless. The key simply is, make sure you can attack somewhere other than the "pointy" end!

Its just not reliable enough. Using so many archers and wasting all of there ammo on one or two units because their overpowered isnt the answer. Archers need to be used to soften up alot of there army not just 1-2 units. And if you leave the pikes alone they eat half your stack.

And against stacks with 4 or more pike units you need at least 10 archer units to effectively take them out. Simply put needing a 2:1 ratio to take out one unit is a balance issue.

[Musthavename]

Its just not reliable enough. Using so many archers and wasting all of there ammo on one or two units because their overpowered isnt the answer. Archers need to be used to soften up alot of there army not just 1-2 units. And if you leave the pikes alone they eat half your stack.

It's always worked for me. I've never had any problems dealing with the AI's pikemen.

If you really want to, because of their really awful movement speed, just kite them! Don't bother fighting them. Then deal with them after you've defeated the rest of their army.

[Tacitursa]

Well if PB is working on them then im clearly not loosing my mind or experiencing a bug and they do need a bit of work and thats good ill wait for that

PB is the win

[Kaizer Merlox]

At least the pikes arn't as bad as Rome Total Realism as Selucid empire or Macidonia's "very long" pikes. that were IMPOSSIBLE to reach to the guys because you had a line of like 8 pikes before you got to them. XD, any ways. Like every one else was saying, It's all about tactics, the point of the pike line was to be very hard to kill from the front, they depending on other units to defend their very weak backs and sides. But let's face it guys, Pikes are VERY hard to kill in city situations, where pike units fill up the entire streets, and flanking them isn't an option. Either way, they have their advantages and dis-advantages, just like every other unit in this game. (Also, people forget that readyness and tired units are effected greatly. If you're forced with the frontal only attack, send a few very light infantry to tire them out, then hit them with the heaviest infantry you got, you'll lose a ton i know, but it's way better than throwing every thign you got at them at once. :x

[Staffen]

just kite them

What he said.

[Tacitursa]

just kite them

This isnt starcraft.

All medieval units have an effective counter unit. Currently pikes do not. Realisticly 2 handed shock infantry should tear pike units to shreds but they do not Pikes beat them on a 2 to 1 ratio it should be the other way round.

Kiting only works for the player aswell. AI cannot kite thats why there needs to be an effective counter unit. Ive never played as scotland or iberian factions but without even playing them i bet its incredibly easy mopping up the AI with pikes especially with the lack of archers in western faction AI armies.

[Preston85]

Realisticly 2 handed shock infantry should tear pike units to shreds but they do not Pikes beat them on a 2 to 1 ratio it should be the other way round.

I'm no historian but I can't see anyone thinking "hay lets just throw stupid amounts of men at big long point sticks and hope they end up not being able to keep stabbing with them".

How about instead of bringing 2 to 1 for the pikes you swap a melee unit for a missile unit and slaughter the pikes? Maybe its because my experience of SS so far is limited to England and Denmark with Longbowmen and Norse Archers hence I use a lot of missile units so do a fine job or killing the pike units.

[Viscule]

Any faction has a missile unit, be it mercenary or not. The pikemen usually walk slow and their running speed is slow. I do not see how you consider throwing people infront of them a valid strategy. Not having around 2-3 missile units atleast is not a good idea.

Always prepare yourself for several things. Pikemen should be the least troublesome.