Battle System

[DimeBagHo]

I'm testing out a new battle system. This new system is included in version 5.8.16. Try it out and let me know what you think.

(1) Most units get 2 hit points.
(2) Some elite units get 3 hit points and a smaller unit size.
(3) Lethality values are increased to near vanilla levels.
(4) Missile accuracy is restored (to vanilla values).
(5) Charge distances for cavalry are reduced.

The general effect of moving to a 2hp system is to make battles last longer. Ranged weapons become much less effective because it takes 2 hits to kill. Ranged weapons also become less decisive, but still useful for wearing down the enemy, as they inflict more wounds and fewer kills.

Increasing missile attack values will off-set the increase in hit points a little, but more importantly it will help the AI to use missile units more effectively. Restoring missile accuracy will also off-set the increased hit points a little, and reduce friendly fire.

Reducing morale values will increase the importance of units that have a morale effect, and increase the importance of tactics like flanking. The low casualty rate in the early stages of battle should make insta-routs rare.

Reducing charge distances for cavalry should make it easier to get good charges going (mostly of benefit to inexperienced players, but it also looks better).

I'm still testing out these changes, and I haven't decided whether to add them in yet. This is your chance to voice an opinion. There will probably be a chance to vote on these changes later.

[Double X]

I like this a lot - but I always thought that XGM prided itself on upgrading vanilla but staying very close in gameplay. I like this anyways but I think it kinda goes against the old xgm idea.

[Scutarii]

Up front: sounds great! Kind of goes similar to what the RTR guys have in TIC, with low morale and higher stats (or in this case, HP). I like the nerfing of the missiles idea especially, and the lowering of elite units sizes but increasing the HP.

On the other hand, it definitely needs to be tested fairly extensively. Keep us updated on how it goes.

[Dog Fart]

I'm willing to test it so I could give a more in depth opinion.

[DimeBagHo]

The files I'm testing now are attached to the first post. Just drop them into your [RTW]/xgm/data folder if you want to try them out. I haven't made any changes to unit sizes yet.

[Dog Fart]

Report 1.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I loaded a couple of custom battles on medium difficulty that way the features remain balanced. And I have a better observation of how the new system works. Rome and Carthage were sitting there infront of me, so I loaded them up. I built the stacks according to what I normally see in a campaign. But I gave Carthage sacred band units and elephants just to see how they work.










Pilum vollies were effective, but it didn't destroy entire ranks of infantry as normal. Javelins seemed to be a bit deadlier, I heard my guys scream "we're being attacked" with flashing red arrows going off all over. I haven't gone through the edu to see wich units have a decrease in morale, but flanking is certainly a must now.










Then I loaded a game as the Indie Gauls against the Germans. I wasn't too concerned on what I had, but I gave the Germans 3 units of Chosen Archers because I was especially curious of the new range system. I threw in some heavier units for them as well. I gave myself 2 units of archers, I meant to get some slingers but I forgot.

German arrows were leathal. They targeted my berserkers, and suprisingly the berserkers were the first to route. I used my archers against the chosen archers, made more damage than usual. I screened the left with my cavalry and used the rear of my infantry line to dog pile the left and rear of the Germans. They were done for after that.







Maybe I should have put it on hard.

A hard flanking maneuver will end a battle very quickly, which is correct. I like missle troops now because they can actually kill something. Never really bothered with them since late 4 and early 5 came out.

Tommorow I'll test Greek, Scythian, and Eastern rosters. Then I'll fix a few test campaigns so I can see how this will effect the game with various terrain.


I like this so far. Once I'm done testing I'll have to put it back on hard difficulty.

[Scutarii]

If missiles are now more powerful, would that unbalance (ie: make even more OP) Horse Archer's? Maybe think about leaving a small accuracy penalty on the HA units, or weaken their attack/range.

[aznflea]

ive tried it out.

imo the missiles are a bit too strong. although the 2 hp is nice the missiles are just too powerful. well all be spamming cretan archers soon. also, the HAs are even more annoying now. maybe if you increase shield value so that missiles are less powerful from the front but deadlier from the back that would be nice. i also think that the lower morale values make the battles too easy. i got cavalry+elephants+chariots together with seleucids and almost insta routed the enemy although tbf that would happen to any lower tier troop even in the old xgm.

if you want to make the battles last longer you need to increase the defence of the units as well because the battles arent much longer and possibly even shorter with proper flanking.

[Roman Warlord]

Ive always thought moral should be increased not decreased simply to cause more damage to me.

[Stilgar CG]

Very interesting, DBH. I'll certainly give it a try. Btw, what unit classes did not receive two hit points? I guess some low-level units (light skirmishers I guess; hope thureophoroi as well). Could this also help in discouraging AI to spam with low-level units?

[DimeBagHo]

I've uploaded a new set of files that should work with version 5.8.15.

In my own tests with the previous set of 2hp files, ranged units seemed to have about the same effectiveness as before. Relative to the more drawn out non-ranged combat they might seem more effective (i.e ranged units are killing at about the same rate as before, but melee units are killing at roughly half the rate). In the new set I have reduced the attack values for ranged units back to where they were, and reduced the amount of ammo for slingers and archers.

ME: 2hp is now the minimum for all units.

[TM Is Back]

When reading this I thought: No way. And I still don't think this is a good idea, for this will change the entire battle systeme, not only that but it goes further and further away from vannila.

[gingerbill]

When reading this I thought: No way. And I still don't think this is a good idea, for this will change the entire battle systeme, not only that but it goes further and further away from vannila.

i agree but i suppose there's no harm in testing something , if it works out great then be silly not to use it . I don't think it will though .

[Dog Fart]

I love the idea of the battle system straying from vannila a bit. There is a reason why I went to mods and abandoned that unbalanced piece of crap.

[Stilgar CG]

TM, I think it's worth trying. As far as I can see, DBH increased uniformly hit points to all units, without changing attack or defense stats. This, in principle, means that relative strength of units remained pretty much the same. However, the hit point ration between normal and elite units changed from 1:2 to 2:3, which means elites are now less elite, which is not necessarily bad The only potentially tricky thing here is missile units. But, if this would allow to renounce on using accuracy modifiers, than we'll have something to gain.

[charles the hammer]

yes this is a something worth trying i find that its almost impossible for me to lose and im not the greatest tachtician so it might add some challenge once hes refined it.

[Scutarii]

if missiles are a bit overpowered now, you could consider just halving the accuracy penalty, rather than voiding it altogether. And also add 3 hitpoints to the elites, rather than 2, to reflect them being a lot better than levies, and possibly a lower unit size.

[Balikedes]

Now, with 2hp should we start expecting our battlefield tactics to play a more decisive role?

IMO yes - i.e., Where we should be using cavalry charges to get the maximum effect and when to send in our reserves, maybe armies with Generals will fair much better than leaderless ones considering the morale boost given by a good General...will definitely give it a go.
Thanks DBH

[CaesarVincens]

So, I tried a few battles; Rome versus Seleucids, medium difficulty, no upgrades, fairly basic (read mostly elite, Silver Shields versus Legionaries mostly) composition.
Anyway, I found that I could win the battle with either side killing 4/5 of the enemy army and losing about 250 of my own men. I can upload the battle replays too so you can see my tactics, if anyone wants.

A few observations:
Cavalry are a lot stronger, without a second hp, cavalry will die rather quickly against any mid level or spear armed troops; now, however, they can stay long enough to deal some casualties and break the unit. Of course I was attacking with no less than two units of horse to any fresh unit, so that would need more testing.
Archers, javelins are weaker at first, since it takes two hits to kill, it's now possible to run troops in against skirmishers and missile troops, however, the time honored tradition of a flanking attack with slingers or archers is still effective.
Phalanges are weaker because enemy units can now attack from the front and take fewer casualties before they get inside the pikes.

In general men die more slowly (which is the whole point; I know), and an average to good unit (read, thureophoroi or Roman Auxilia) can hold against two or more units (even Argyraspid Phalanx or Legionaries or Roman Cohorts) and neither die nor rout immediately.

[DimeBagHo]

CaesarVincens: I've found the effect with cavalry cuts both ways. They get less shock from the initial impact, and the effect of charging is diluted because the charge effect wears off just as fast as before, while melee lasts longer.

TM: In some ways this is a move back towards vanilla. Lethality values will be more like vanilla, so you won't see as many knock downs, and missile units will feel much more like vanilla, with less friendly fire and more missiles landing on target.

Scuttari: For elite units I'm thinking about cutting the units size to either 50 or 60 (on normal) and increasing hit points to 3.