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  1. #1
    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Capitalism is Flawed

    Why is it that people seem to think that a western democracy should be capitalist? It is morally and ethically wrong, not to mention am awful way of running things from a humanitarian point of view. There is a reason why the left-wing governments are slowly turning socialist. I hope that this will continue and capitalism will fall. As to why this is, the first step is to take one look at a capitalist country; lets take the USA.

    The USA, a superpower, is ruled by democratically elected government and tyranny is impossible as the federal system dictates that the president, senate and supreme court all 'check' each other and can stop each other from going out of control. The country owns huge businesses, it has a high quality of life and it is the richest country on earth. So far, so good. But, the world economy has collapsed. People have lost their jobs, and the education system simply does not work. The healthcare system is a joke. To get the best healthcare, you have to have money, but the people who need the healthcare are the poor, those who have a poor quality of life, bad conditions and nothing better to do than crime, especially if they have no jobs.

    Society, in this case the US society, has many levels. There are the ruling elite, who make the decisions and govern the country. There are the officials and administrators, who administrate and manage large companies or facilitate government laws. Then there are the middle classes, people employed in the service sector who drive the economy by running the shops and piloting the planes and teaching the children. But the most important level is the bottom. The western world outsources its working classes, from Asia and Africa, where there are more than enough (?) people there to satisfy demand for both their own country and the West. They create the raw materials for clothes, build the machines and fashion the very wheels and cogs of the great machine. If one of these cogs stops working, then everything stops. If there is a teacher strike, a few kids get off school. If there is an oil worker strike, whole countries come to a standstill. Therefore how can a society in which everyone is constantly trying to get to the top work?

    It can't. As the skilled climb, so the unskilled and 'garbage' of civilisation fall and are buried, forgotten. We find many ways to bypass them, leave them to rot while we politic and talk, going in circles, doing nothing. They have no hope of climbing either, because the higher classes want to cater for their own kind as a general rule. So they are left. 'Every person is an individual and deserves a chance', is the capitalist motto, but what have individuals ever done to further the causes of humanity? The collective, the cooperation of millions is what makes the cogs move, not the constant inward conflict of the 'induvidual'.

    Also, with all the communist atrocities in the Khmer Rouge, China and Russia, people forget that the Socialist philosophy itself is actually the more ethical and humanitarian.

    "I swear -- by my life and by my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

    Is that what Ug the Caveman said when the bear attacked his village? No, he said

    "Go, Ugatha, and hide our children, while the men ward off these foul beasts with our cooperation, that which separates us from the beasts. Look at the lion, the wolf, the elephant. They are the kings of their lands, and why? Because in their society, they protect each other, and work with each other for the betterment, for the Greater Good. So man must do."

    What is civilisation anyway? Is it individual men, living for their own selfish needs and not caring about others? No, it is people who joined together in the face of danger, and help each other, in return for reciprication.

    Now onto my final point for the moment: freedom of action and self-preservation. Freedom of speech, something that on principle i am not opposed to, is however how hatred and enmity is free to grow unchecked. If i cannot criticise evilness and corruption, then that is wrong. However, if i must listen to hatred and evilness go unpunished, then that is equally wrong. "The Greater Good dictates that necessity must overrule freedom, which is in noone's interests, therefore socialism and communism are evil" is the argument most often found for capitalism. But that is where Aldous Huxley, George Orwell and co. are wrong. Of course that is in noone's interest, so it is not in society's interest either. 'Good' must be weighed up, and if good seems to infringe on any greater good, then it is not the greater good. Self-preservation, in capitalism acheived by one's own endeavour, is far more efficiently portrayed in socialism. The utopian socialist society is one in which everyone does what they are best at, therefore everyone is happy. Necessity and happiness go hand in hand, and what better freedom is there than happiness?
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  2. #2

    Default Re: Capitalism is Flawed

    All I read is that you want something for nothing. How moral or ethical is that?

    Socialism is the philosophy of coercion and unrepentant greed. If there is something you want declare it a human right (healthcare for example) and use the ballot box to steal it.
    Last edited by The Devil's Sergeant; February 20, 2009 at 09:44 AM.

  3. #3
    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Re: Capitalism is Flawed

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacifist Hummingbird View Post
    All I read is that you want something for nothing. How moral or ethical is that?
    I never said that, in fact i said the complete opposite. I do something for someone else, therefore they do something for me. Of course there are selfish people who may not recipricate, but they would soon die out. If you do nothing for someone else, then they do nothing for you, after all.

    Another socialist rant ignoring the value of property and the the rule of law.


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    Seriously though, please enlighten me as to how that has anything to do with what i posted in the first post?
    Last edited by Copperknickers II; February 20, 2009 at 09:53 AM.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  4. #4

    Default Re: Capitalism is Flawed

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers View Post
    I never said that, in fact i said the complete opposite. I do something for someone else, therefore they do something for me. Of course there are selfish people who may not recipricate, but they would soon die out. If you do nothing for someone else, then they do nothing for you, after all.
    What you praise is capitalism. Socialism is selfishness and what you are criticizing. Socialism is demanding something of someone else and not reciprocating with something of equal value.
    Last edited by The Devil's Sergeant; February 20, 2009 at 09:57 AM.

  5. #5
    MasterOfNone's Avatar RTW Modder 2004-2015
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    Default Re: Capitalism is Flawed

    Free enterprise is the only system that is not flawed. Socialism-fascism-communism-collectivism is flawed because it holds that legal plunder is acceptable.

    Free enterprise is moral because it relies upon the mutual consent of both parties and does not violate the rights of others.

    Those who subscribe to socialism must of necessity place no value on the free choice and property of others and, therefore, are neither friends of liberty or the happiness of their fellowman.

    Capitalism is like free speech - people can abuse it; but you do not get rid of it because of that. As long as fraud and force, and the threat thereof, are kept out of free enterprise by good laws that protect our natural rights, capitalism is as good and moral a system as there can be and it is the ONLY system under which everyone can prosper.

    I strongly recommend that those symathetic towards socialism read the first half of the 80-page booklet by Frederic Bastiat entitled "The Law". I think this essential reading for all. It is said, by the way, that this book has converted more people away from socialism than any other book. Pretty good for a 150-year-old book written in France
    Last edited by MasterOfNone; February 20, 2009 at 10:09 AM.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Capitalism is Flawed

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfNone View Post
    Free enterprise is the only system that is not flawed. Socialism-fascism-communism-collectivism is flawed because it holds that legal plunder is acceptable.

    Free enterprise is moral because it relies upon the mutual consent of both parties and does not violate the rights of others.

    Those who subscribe to socialism must of necessity place no value on the free choice and property of others and, therefore, are neither friends of liberty or the happiness of their fellowman.

    Capitalism is like free speech - people can abuse it; but you do not get rid of it because of that. As long as fraud and force, and the threat thereof, are kept out of free enterprise by good laws that protect our natural rights, capitalism is as good and moral a system as there can be and it is the ONLY system under which everyone can prosper.

    I strongly recommend that those symathetic towards socialism read the first half of the 80-page booklet by Frederic Bastiat entitled "The Law". I think this essential reading do all people.
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    Default Re: Capitalism is Flawed

    Another socialist rant ignoring the value of property and the the rule of law.
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  8. #8
    Holger Danske's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Capitalism is Flawed

    We have certainly seen how viable Communism has been in the past, haven't we?

    All Ideologies have their flaws and drawbacks, but some a more severe than others, and frankly Capitalism has done pretty well - as long as it has been mixed with some humanistic ideologies.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Capitalism is Flawed

    Well written I agree with most of the points. I'll add a rep point for that.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Capitalism is Flawed

    But from where I'm standing, Scotland by the way, it seems to be working very well

    I live in a very affluent society , and to the people that aren't hugely educated in politics lke myself to a certain extent, all that matters is that i have a roof over my head and food on my table, and myself and everyone i know has that and enough money left over to buy luxuries
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Capitalism is Flawed

    Quote Originally Posted by surfingturtle View Post
    But from where I'm standing, Scotland by the way, it seems to be working very well

    I live in a very affluent society , and to the people that aren't hugely educated in politics lke myself to a certain extent, all that matters is that i have a roof over my head and food on my table, and myself and everyone i know has that and enough money left over to buy luxuries
    Scotland still has a socialist government, well slightly left of centre at any rate.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Capitalism is Flawed

    Quote Originally Posted by surfingturtle View Post
    But from where I'm standing, Scotland by the way, it seems to be working very well

    I live in a very affluent society , and to the people that aren't hugely educated in politics lke myself to a certain extent, all that matters is that i have a roof over my head and food on my table, and myself and everyone i know has that and enough money left over to buy luxuries
    That demonstrates my point perfectly. Scotland (where incidently i also live) fails the working classes utterly. In some areas they have no jobs, therefore they cannot pay for good food, and their education is not sufficient to allow them good jobs or how to make good food. Therefore they are malnourished, have a terrible life expectancy and have a homicide rate of something like 1 per 10,000 people killed every year. All the while, people like you sit back and praise Scotland's world influence, its finance centers and its tourism, and its high quality of life among the middle classes , which incidently is plaqued by binge drinking, crime and poor education.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  13. #13

    Default Re: Capitalism is Flawed

    Actually i live in Torry, a very working class area (you can check if you want, yellow pages much), i got made fun of at private school for living there so i do know what its like

    Everything you said is vague and exagerated

    Example, "in some areas they have no jobs", diddums there are unemployed people everywhere and there are many programmes in Scotland such as Skillseekers to train people and there are benefits for people who can't manage at all
    Last edited by Reynolds; February 20, 2009 at 10:18 AM.
    See the storm set in your eyes
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  14. #14
    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Re: Capitalism is Flawed

    Quote Originally Posted by surfingturtle View Post
    Actually i live in Torry, a very working class area (you can check if you want, yellow pages much), i got made fun of at private school for living there so i do know what its like

    Everything you said is vague and exagerated
    Working class is one thing, but deprived is something else.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Capitalism is Flawed

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers View Post
    That demonstrates my point perfectly. Scotland (where incidently i also live) fails the working classes utterly. In some areas they have no jobs, therefore they cannot pay for good food, and their education is not sufficient to allow them good jobs or how to make good food. Therefore they are malnourished, have a terrible life expectancy and have a homicide rate of something like 1 per 10,000 people killed every year. All the while, people like you sit back and praise Scotland's world influence, its finance centers and its tourism, and its high quality of life among the middle classes , which incidently is plaqued by binge drinking, crime and poor education.

    Government is not there to provide and guarantee employment. How can it fail working classes due to unemployment? This gets back to my point that this thread is a giant socialist rant on property and the rule of law.
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  16. #16
    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Re: Capitalism is Flawed

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    Government is not there to provide and guarantee employment. How can it fail working classes due to unemployment? This gets back to my point that this thread is a giant socialist rant on property and the rule of law.
    So what do you propose the point of a government is exactly, if not to represent the interests of the people?
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  17. #17
    Stalins Ghost's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Capitalism is Flawed

    Quote Originally Posted by surfingturtle View Post
    But from where I'm standing, Scotland by the way, it seems to be working very well

    I live in a very affluent society , and to the people that aren't hugely educated in politics lke myself to a certain extent, all that matters is that i have a roof over my head and food on my table, and myself and everyone i know has that and enough money left over to buy luxuries
    Funnily enough you're living in a very socialised country.

    ----
    Anyway.

    The biggest flaw with Capitalism as I see it is that you replace one form of power bloc (government, or religion) with another one (the corporation). The fundemental flaw is that it is not necessarily liberating workers from government or religion, but enslaving them to a wage.

    As I see it, the only truly enlightened system is one where the entrepreneur is free to pursue his/her own goals but is obliged to give all those who have contributed to his/her success a cut of it, and some measure of sharing in the successes of their employer. Government's role should be to ensure this is facilitated through rule of law. As it is, it's all too easy for corporations to subject its employees to wage-slavery. Not that there's no exceptions. There's a lot of companies out there that truely reward those who help build that success.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Capitalism is Flawed

    Society is still built on the principal of the strong supporting the weak though. It's that kind of behaviour that lead to our evolutionary success as a species.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Capitalism is Flawed

    Quote Originally Posted by Helm View Post
    Society is still built on the principal of the strong supporting the weak though. It's that kind of behaviour that lead to our evolutionary success as a species.


    Why do you the "strong" become rich and powerful? They provide protection to the weak and in turn the weak gave them money and allowed them to govern. It is still a transaction in a crude sense. In the socialist mind the weak still need "proctection" but the strong are denied compensation.

  20. #20
    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Re: Capitalism is Flawed

    It is not reciprocating directly, no. You build a building, we will feed you, you nurse someone in a hospital, we will build you a house. I do disagree with the communist redistribution of wealth and property owned by the government. Everything belongs to everyone else, not to the government. Again, if i steal someone's property, i relinquish my right to have property, so the right to property is respected and upheld.

    EDIT - sorry, bit of an oxymoron with those last two sentences.
    Last edited by Copperknickers II; February 20, 2009 at 10:01 AM.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

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