How do you compose an eastern faction's army?

[Sir Salisbury]

Hi Total War community,

Im a long time player and first time poster!

Ive only ever seriously played as western factions, I have started many campaigns with eastern factions and given them up early on for various reasons.
Im going to attempt a campaign as the turks again, this time determined to complete it.
With my usual western factions, my standard army consists of a General, 4X heavy cavalry, 6X archers/xbowmen and the rest compromised of varying infantry.
In previous campaigns and custom battles I have tried to find an ideal army composition for an eastern faction. Obviously horse-archer spamming is easy but when it comes to a siege or large scale battle, I find horse archers lacking.
So any suggestions on army composition for general campaigning? Examples with any eastern factions well welcome.

Cheers!

[DeMolay]

For defending your territory , if you have the funds for it , maybe try to make a horse archers exclusive army , (horse archers become really effective when you have at least 7-8 units of them from my experience) , with 1 unit of your general , maybe 1 unit of heavy cavalry to protect him when he charges , and one unit of light cavalry to capture or kill the ennemy general when he routs , and then 17-18 units of Horse archers only .

It is really effective for defending your land . I do this with Byzantium , Hungary , Turks and early period with Novgorod , all your troops are on a horse and oblige your ennemy to tire his troops when trying to catch your units, cripples their morale as well with all the arrows raining , it works like a charm for me especially if you choose well the location of the battlefield (if you have the high ground ) , you often get very low casualties .

For attacking cities however , better use foot armies , there is no best formula , depends what you are facing , so it's useful to send a spy first , but in general rule , i would use in a full stack of 20 units , 1 general , 6 infantry (ie Byzantine infantry , with the Turks it's more subtle cause they lack proper infantry , but they have a wide range of spearmen that can do the job and archers that can fight melees , personally i use hallberders quite a lot when i get access to them , you can also take mercs that you disband as soon as you take the city ) , 4 competent spears (like dismounted Sipahi lancers for example ) , 4 missiles , 3 cavalry , and the rest with cheap troops or mercs that will die fast trying to take the walls or breach the doors first

[jsktrogdor]

welcome to TWC;

Im in the exact same shoes you are, trying my first real go at an eastern faction as the turks. Im on turn 33, so far my armies have all been very impromptu due to the chaos of this starting position. But I think once I get going im going to try for:

4 Horse Archers
2 Heaviest cavalry I can get
7 Infantry
4 Archers
2 Javalins

Maybe even considering swaping out an archer and an infantry for two more horse archers, those horse archers are ing. As far as seiges are concerned I have no clue, I usually wait for the enemy to sally; if at all possible try to draw the enemy out on the campaign map, thats what ive done in the past. Anyways, let me know what you try and how it works out.

EDIT: and never forget that alt-clicking with your horse archers basicly turns them into watered down light cavalry, great for running down routers; not so hot at melee fighting anything other than peasents.

[Sir Salisbury]

welcome to TWC;

Im in the exact same shoes you are, trying my first real go at an eastern faction as the turks. Im on turn 33, so far my armies have all been very impromptu due to the chaos of this starting position. But I think once I get going im going to try for:

4 Horse Archers
2 Heaviest cavalry I can get
7 Infantry
4 Archers
2 Javalins

Maybe even considering swaping out an archer and an infantry for two more horse archers, those horse archers are ing. As far as seiges are concerned I have no clue, I usually wait for the enemy to sally; if at all possible try to draw the enemy out on the campaign map, thats what ive done in the past. Anyways, let me know what you try and how it works out.

EDIT: and never forget that alt-clicking with your horse archers basicly turns them into watered down light cavalry, great for running down routers; not so hot at melee fighting anything other than peasents.

Yeah i sometimes starve out the city inorder to use the HA's to full effect, but its not always viable as I need the troops elsewhere or there is another stack in the vacinity.

I don't know if Ottoman infanrty would be able to handle a large amount of DFK or something to that effect, anyone know how they would stand up to the heavier earlier infantries?

[The Fishman]

How do you compose an eastern faction's army

Sipahi. Lots of Sipahi.

[Muagan_ra]

It's not so different, just flipping the ratios on their head.

Say, for example, a typical western army would be:

- 10/20 infantry (Heavy Infantry, Spearmen etc...)
- 3/20 missile
- 6 heavy cavalry
- General

Your typical Turkish army would flip that:

- 10/20 Cavalry (5/5 heavy and missile cavalry, or whatver ratio you want)
- Maybe 6 infantry units
- 3 missiles
- General

This is obviously a very general idea, but what I'm saying is that the emphasis of your army moves to mobility and ranged firepower, but you still need heavy infantry (and the Turkish have some excellent infantry!). You might want to combine your missile/infantry portions of the army by using a hybrid unit, like Ottoman Infantry.

That said, don't be afraid to rely on infantry armies - when you get access to Saracen militia, Halbard militia, Naptha, and especially Janissary Heavy Infantry you can fully depend on the kind of army you're more used to.


PS: Good choice, btw. Playing as the Turks was one the most enjoyable experiences I've ever had in Total War - I love the finesse of their army, and the brute power. Just wait until you take a horde of Sipahi, and watch them surround and eviscerate your enemies with arrows - it's disturbingly enjoyable.

[DeMolay]

I thought Saracen militia were fighting with spears , Naptha aren't really infantry IMHO more like a sort of a missile unit , very nice unit though especially for defending walls or doors of castle/cities

Though , i agree that Ottoman infantry should be the backbone of Turkish armies for attacking cities (with dismounted sipahis , halbarders and a few javelin men ) , i say for attacking cause for defending your regions i would use horse archers armies+ cavalry combo only , but IMHO one must not overrate Ottoman infantry for melee cause their morale is nothing special so i would hesitate to throw them against western crusaders dismounted knights in sustained fights for instance (that's where Javelin throwers are important IMO to support them against western armoured infantry troops ) , especially for taking walls of fortresses or at the doors .

That's why i think that halbard militia are quite important for Turks (because of armour piercing) , "traditional" infantry (guys with swords) choice of Turks is quite limited IMHO until late period , only proper infantry they have is hashishins , Janissary come quite late , usually well after Mongol invasion in my games although i kept up upgrading , but like said Muagan , the strength of the Seljuks lies in hybrid units (ottoman infantry) and mobile horse archers (Sipahis are great ) , make sure you use a maximum of units that "spits" arrows and can fight a bit and support them with units with good morale like dismounted sipahis or with armour piercing properties like Turkish javelinmen . On open field battles , Turkish have very nice cavalry units , they excell in these conditions IMHO ( full stack with Sipahis + Sipahis lancers and your general , it's very strong on open field )

[Muagan_ra]

Depends on how fast you tech - all you need to do is keep low taxes in your main cities, and build the City Hall tech tree. Once you get the Dar-al-Imra (or whatever it's called... Dal-ar-Imra?) poof! You now have the ability to train one of the mightiest heavy infantry available to anyone; Janissary Heavy Infantry not only have the power, they also have a certain coolness factor that I for one can't resist...

Saracen militia are very good, solid units. They're called Heavy Infantry in-game believe it or not, but to all intents and purposes they're the Turkish version of Italian Spear Militia - and we all know how good those guys are! Some armour upgrades, bit of experience, and you have a unit that can stand up to most enemies.

Ottoman infantry are good, but they need armour upgrades if you want to use them in sieges. I find they're best in open fields, where you don't need to fight to the last man - they have good armour, but not heavy enough to slog it out in the streets in my opinion. Despite that, who could resist a good melee unit that has the abilities of a top tier archer?

As a final note, I havn't mentioned them before, but in my Turkish campaign I become besotted with Sipahi. They're the most usefull, versatile unit I've ever played with.

[StalkAndStrike]

10000000000 babies, one body-builder, and only 6 spoons, 3 jars of baby-feed


watch the ownage

[jsktrogdor]

Ive hit a snag in my campaign, I focused on economy and rapid expansion, so even though I have something like 30 settlments now and a decent enough surplus I have no Infantry or cavlry beyond spear militia and turkish horse archers. So the byzantines are cutting through them like swiss cheese, Im still beating them but the numbers are ugly. Im going to give that 19/20 horse archer army a shot.

[Flogger]

I've jsut finished a Turkish campaign and I've found the most effective army composition to be:

1 General
3 Sipahis/horse archers - for flanking the enemy, picking off artillery units, distracting reinforcements
3 Sipahi Lancers/Quapukulu - focus them all one one enemy flank, they'll be able to roll up the enemy line like a carpet
6 Ottoman Infantry - I use them as good quality line infantry, their missiles severly weaken the approaching enemy force as well.
3 Dismounted Sipahi - one on each flank and one as a reserve.
4 Naptha Throwers - place them just behind your main line, they do serious damage to enemy morale.

[Sir Salisbury]

I've jsut finished a Turkish campaign and I've found the most effective army composition to be:

1 General
3 Sipahis/horse archers - for flanking the enemy, picking off artillery units, distracting reinforcements
3 Sipahi Lancers/Quapukulu - focus them all one one enemy flank, they'll be able to roll up the enemy line like a carpet
6 Ottoman Infantry - I use them as good quality line infantry, their missiles severly weaken the approaching enemy force as well.
3 Dismounted Sipahi - one on each flank and one as a reserve.
4 Naptha Throwers - place them just behind your main line, they do serious damage to enemy morale.

I don't think that naptha throwers get enough kills to be worthy of more than 2 units in an army. Dont you just find that they maulled as soon as your main line is engaged?

[Last of the Mohawks]

How would you compose a Byzantine army on Vanilla?

If you were the AI how would you do it

And how would you counter them?

[claudius2007]

How would you compose a Byzantine army on Vanilla?

If you were the AI how would you do it

And how would you counter them?

It really depends on what the army is for. If you mean a field army then I would probably choose:
-1 General
-4 Horse Archers (byz cavalry or something else)
-4 Byz infantry
-4 Byz spearmen
-2 Dismounted Latinkon
-3 Trebizond archers
-2 Heavy cavalry (Latinkon) or whatever

[Ascarona]

If your not in vanilla but in a mod or crusades campaign then greek firethrowers ARE A MUST in every decent army on the field for byzantines, don't forget that!

And i have a question on my own, are varagnian guard any good, since their two handed axes and all...

[Sir Salisbury]

If your not in vanilla but in a mod or crusades campaign then greek firethrowers ARE A MUST in every decent army on the field for byzantines, don't forget that!

And i have a question on my own, are varagnian guard any good, since their two handed axes and all...

I think varangian guards are useful on the walls despite what people say about the 2H axe, also they can usually cause a route in most units by charging their right flank. Dismounted Latinkon still my fav for Byzzy infantry.

[Lysimachus]

What people say about the 2H axe really should be taken into account. It has slow animations and the walls give them no room to manouvre. You're wasting a powerful unit which is great in more open areas. You should get Retrofit if you want more powerful Muslim rosters however because they include some good strong heavy infantry for those nations rather than the vanilla roster.

[DeMolay]

I'd answer like Claudius except that i would distinguish between armies for defending your borders (horse archers armies with only 2-3 of cavalry , all your army should be on horse , skythikon or byzantine cavalry ) , and armies for taking foreign cities which would be mainly on foot except for 2-3 heavy cavalry units ( although i would use at least 4-5 trebzond archers personally , 2 of them is not enough IMO to really make damage with arrows ).

Varangian guard , i only use them in Constantinople to protect the Emperor as it was in history , i usually use 2 units or max 3 , but they are indeed very good infantry with armour piercing properties , one of the best infantry unit in vanilla probably