Kataphracts

[Carpathian Wolf]

I'd just a bit annoyed with how the Kataphracts are portrayed and how out done they are in multiplayer. The Kataphracts were suppose to be the end all be all main line troops of the late Roman Empire (ERE/Byz). Armored from crown to hoof they would walk their horses toward the enemy exchanging arrow at the enemy while shrugging off any incoming arrows. The 10 attack, 16 armor, 6 charge stats are laughable. You can get better for less with with many other cheaper cavalry.

Does anyone have a tactic/trick for using Kataphracts to some sort of advantage? I really like playing the faction but I find them severely under powered. They don't have a specific edge or nich like all the other factions. I really wish the game was just made using the complete byz roster :hmmm: instead of these plush dolls the byz have for troops.

[claudius2007]

I feel you man, I actually often avoid playing as the Byzantines just because of their heavily restricted unit rooster. I mean for god's sakes even the rebels have more unit choices than that. Also, the few units they do have are so much alike it drives me insane. 3 different types of horse archers (out of which you will probably only train the higher tiers) a bunch of spearmen that are the same as militia spearmen, etc.

[Pink Beard]

Kataphracts are outdated. Their armour is of worse quality then western knights and they're as immobile as one can be on a horse...

[dynamo]

Well if you use their maces they can kill other armored units of similar stats (like feudal knights) pretty effectively

[DeMolay]

I really adivse you to install 1.3patch and download Stainless steel mod 4.1 (if you don't have Kingdom) , it works perfectly and is a great improvement to the game !

The Byzantines are then revamped with more realistic and updated stats as well as a few new units , it really does justice to them with this mod , Kataphractoi comes with more realistic stats . In vanilla Kataphractoi is underrated , sure their armour was not the best , but their discipline and training was excellent , it is normal though that they cannot rivalize with the best Turkish heavy cavalry units

[NeedsMoreNinjas]

Can't offer any input on multiplayer but I will definately agree that in the campaign if you patch to 1.3 and use SS 4.1 there won't be any probs with the Byzantine roster. I like the feel of the Byz units, they are lighter than their european counterparts but they more than make up for that with their versatility.

Trebizond archers and the Byzantine horse archers are really fun to play with. I haven't started producing my Guard Archers yet but they look like they are going to be a blast.

[Carpathian Wolf]

Kataphracts are outdated. Their armour is of worse quality then western knights and they're as immobile as one can be on a horse...

Maybe in the game...but lammelar armor worked just as well as plate. It simply worked differently. Instead of deflecting totally, it absorbed/deflected.

Why would the horse be immobile?

Well if you use their maces they can kill other armored units of similar stats (like feudal knights) pretty effectively

Yea but fuedal knights are also cheaper and in a multiplayer setting every bit counts. kataphracts are just too expensive for too little.

I really adivse you to install 1.3patch and download Stainless steel mod 4.1 (if you don't have Kingdom) , it works perfectly and is a great improvement to the game !

The Byzantines are then revamped with more realistic and updated stats as well as a few new units , it really does justice to them with this mod , Kataphractoi comes with more realistic stats . In vanilla Kataphractoi is underrated , sure their armour was not the best , but their discipline and training was excellent , it is normal though that they cannot rivalize with the best Turkish heavy cavalry units

Really considering it but I don't like using mods and updating etc. Also it doesn't seem like that many people play it online.

[sinosleep]

There was a recent dev interview where they actually touched on this issue. The factions are INTENTIONALLY not balanced. The balance of units you see in vanilla is exactly the balance you were intended to play the game with being as it's the balance they wanted for the campaign.

Here's the quote and the link

http://www.gamereplays.org/empiretot...ly-the-answers

GR: How much work was put into each faction?

Dan Toose: Quite a bit in terms of having a couple of our designers slave away with research to come up with units lists, and valid building types. However, when you’ve got over 20 factions in a game, it’d be a lie to pretend we treated each one like its own unique special snowflake. We did make a decision early on NOT to balance the factions because it’s not a balanced world we live in, and more importantly, it made it very easy for players to choose an ‘easy’ faction, or a really hard one.

Stuff like that is the biggest reason why I don't usually play mods that make huge changes to the game. When a game is balanced it is balanced around the statistics and parameters that the devs originally used, changing them to much can lead to tons of other things that were in balance suddenly being out of wack due to the changes.

[DeMolay]

I agree but Byzantine army was in no way inferior to their foes , on the contrary , they had less numerous but quality troops , their downfall was more due to divisions , corruption , many ennemies etc.. than lack of competence of their army , their heavy cavalry was feared and respected for its discipline and valour well beyond their borders .

I understand the devs who wanted to unbalance things in order to more or less achieve in the campaign game what happened in history (ie the destruction of the Byzantine Empire) , but for example in that mod stainless steel , it is far more interesting to play Byzantium than in vanilla , probably more realistic as well not only for the new units and updated stats etc..( they still have an "inferior" roster in late period than say the Turks and other factions and are behind for gunpowder , but their roster is more realistic in early and high period IMHO ) but for the improvements in the battle , although i respect your opinions

[Carpathian Wolf]

The choice to unbalance the Byz into making thier military weak may have been used to show the realistic limitations of the Byz Empire itself, but its historical weakness was not its military but it's political situation.

Honestly the Kataphracts need a bow (even if the game limits it for 2 weapons per unit) and need to be on par with the tsarguard or any top line cavalry unit.

As for inferior units...well in truth the gunpowder units are not represented well at all in the game. The reason why the musket replaced the bow and arrow was because guns were cheaper to make and easier to use. So for the price of a knight, you could hire some farmers with some decent armor to hold up pikes. Or instead of spending years and years training archers you could hire any joe off the street and hand them a gun.

[Pink Beard]

The choice to unbalance the Byz into making thier military weak may have been used to show the realistic limitations of the Byz Empire itself, but its historical weakness was not its military but it's political situation.

Honestly the Kataphracts need a bow (even if the game limits it for 2 weapons per unit) and need to be on par with the tsarguard or any top line cavalry unit.

As for inferior units...well in truth the gunpowder units are not represented well at all in the game. The reason why the musket replaced the bow and arrow was because guns were cheaper to make and easier to use. So for the price of a knight, you could hire some farmers with some decent armor to hold up pikes. Or instead of spending years and years training archers you could hire any joe off the street and hand them a gun.

True, very true. I would love to see a Byzantine Empire with strong troops but with the same problems as England in the Britannia Campaign. U know, despite being the largest, wealthiest and biggest faction there was rebellion, low loyalty generals and an uprising (The Baron's Alliance). Would be cool if they made that for the Byzantines

[Silent Assassin]

Simple don't use them... No really I don't like cavalery so I don't bother with them, but Im must say that I'm not afraid of facing any kind of cavalry with my Turks

[Last of the Mohawks]

Simple don't use them... No really I don't like cavalery so I don't bother with them, but Im must say that I'm not afraid of facing any kind of cavalry with my Turks

1. I'm not a fan of Cavalry, so I wouldn't use them either.

2. Do you have to post on every thread requiring a answer?

[Silent Assassin]

1. I'm not a fan of Cavalry, so I wouldn't use them either.

2. Do you have to post on every thread requiring a answer?

I feel your getting aggressive here

[Reynolds]

1. I'm not a fan of Cavalry, so I wouldn't use them either.

2. Do you have to post on every thread requiring a answer?

Whats wrong with answering, where in your own words, an answer is required?

[Pink Beard]

Whats wrong with answering, where in your own words, an answer is required?

You know this requires an answer too...

[Reynolds]

lol you got me

There's nothing wrong with it is what i was suggesting

[Silent Assassin]

Lol I'm surrounded with

[Carpathian Wolf]

I've decided to give up on the vanilla byz unless playing early era. For high era i'll use Russia i suppose.

[sinosleep]

If anything this thread has inspired me to start a Byz campaign. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the Byz Empire have what seem like several copies of the same kinds of units, for their spearmen, infantry, cavalry and right on down the line. I actually think that's an advantage being as that kind of line up allows for VERY quick build up of full stack armies. If you only have one unit of it's kind you're limited by troop replacement rate in your settlements. If you have several units that are very similar you've doubled the number of troops you can get from the same settlement being as each unit has it's own individual replacement rate. Instead of having to build your army across a bunch of different castles/cities and having them meet in the middle. I used this to my advantage on my Russian campaigns when Dismouned Druzhina and Dismounted Boyar Sons were available from the same castles while having essentially the same stats.