Milanese midgame strategy

[CatharticMoment]

Hi,

I'm around 60 turns into a Milan campaign, and control roughly 25 regions. So far, my armies have contained something like:

8 Italian spear militia
6 Genoese crossbow miltia
1 General
1 Caroccio standard
1 Catapault
3 Cavalry militia

There may be variations - e.g. I may have a mailed knights instead of cavalry militia, or the slower units (standard, catapault) may be absent.

I have castles in Pamplona and in the alpine regions, cities everywhere else.

So far, this has worked fine, and these armies still seem to rock in some areas of the game, such as Iberia, where the crossbows massacre Jinetes. However, I've recently entered a few new wars, against powers such as England, Denmark and Byzantium. Although I haven't had serious clashes with their armies yet, my spies are reporting higher tech opposition. I'm worried how my armies will fare against the likes of:

English armies with lots of DFKs and longbowmen
Danish infantry heavy armies

Whilst my crossbow militia are still powerful, how will my spearmen cope when they come across proper infantry opposition, instead of the peasant and militia heavy armies I've faced so far?

Will I need to alter my army make-up to face these new powers? In what way?

Should I use more castle built troops myself? Which castle troops should I prioritise - e.g. Genoese Crossbowmen, DFKs or Feudal Knights?

I'm also finding it strange that my "short" campaign seems to be turning into a marathon. I've taken a lot of ground from the HRE and Venice, but they both still seem to have a lot left, most of it well defended, including 3 HRE crusader provinces around Antioch. Going for a quick win would leave me horribly stretched, but if I try to take both out slowly and surely I could end up completing the "long" campaign victory criteria before I finish.

[Viking Prince]

You say a short campaign. Are you meaning to eliminate HRE and Venice and hold at least 15 regions? Or you mean short as in only 60 turns so far?

Regardless, your troops with some armor upgrades should still be good against the English, etc. I would be including some castle infantry into the mix though as well as a couple of mounted knights. Keep the Caroccio Standard -- it is you ace in the hole to keep the militia from breaking.

The problem with the Italian factions is more that your huge advantage disappears over time and not that you fall behind. This is the point that you are at now. The citadel troops will make the militia troops less valuable, but they will always be a part of your armies. Besides, how can you not like Dismounted Broken Lances?

[CatharticMoment]

I meant short as in "Elimininate HRE and Venice". I've made lots of ground on these factions so far, but they still seem to have roughly 9 regions between them, and those regions are scattered and well guarded. (HRE still has Frankfurt, Nuremburg and 3 regions around Antioch, Venice has Sofia and assorted islands). As well as going for these regions, I'm also having to fight the English, Danes, Portuguese, Spanish, Byzantines and Sicilians. Short is actually looking quite long! I blame the French for forcing me to go in the wrong direction early on. Oh well - at least I can eliminate Portugal over the next few turns - for what that's worth (I suspect it will be "worth" a new war against the Moors).

I haven't yet gotten to the stage where I have access to DBLs. I can still make progress at the moment - it's just slow. I guess it's the opposite to my previous game as the french - at this stage the french army really delivered and swept all before it, whilst as Milan it's a little more of a grind.

I've heard Milan has strong gunpowder troops in the late game - perhaps I'll just have to limp along and take what I can get until then.

[Viking Prince]

OK -- so how did you end up in Pamplona to take on the HRE and Venice? Focus!!! You will find your task easier if you try to minimize your opponants. Give up the far flung settlements in exchange for ceasefires and narrow your focus to the strategic task before you. You will not need more than 15 regions for the win.

The HRE are easy to take out since you should have already seized Bern and Dijon. From your base in Milan and Venice, you should have taken Bologna, Innsbruck, and Vienna. If you have not done so, this should be your next goal. As you capture HRE settlements, the HRE will spread towards the Baltic. Once at the water's edge, they are trapped between Milan and other AI factions.

Venice should be the really problem, but again a weakened Venice will be targeted by Byzantium, Egypt, and Sicily. They can do the job for you. Your goal is elimination and not personal conquest.

Well at least that is my experiance with a short campaign with Milan. Most short campaigns take me 50 - 75 turns. The Italians are no exception to the rule.

Have fun. Good luck. Keep us informed. I love the short campaigns!!!

Regards,

VP

[CatharticMoment]

Well there are actually what seem to me to be compelling arguments for all my advances!

Portugal has thrown so many troops at me that it has almost nothing left. It's cities have minimal defences and will fall in a few turns.

England recently declared war on me, but has only 2 regions on the continent. So it kind of makes sense to attack those regions in order to boot them back to their island.

I'm attacking the HRE for the win condition, but they're well defended. Hopefully I'll have Frankfurt soon.

And I need to advance against Byzantium since

a) they're the second strongest faction in the game, and if I don't hit them, they'll hit me.

and

b) Attacking them brings me closer to Venice's islands and HRE's crusader possessions.

I guess focus never was my strong point, but the advantage of Milanese Militia is that they're so cheap I can easily run armies all over the place.

[CatharticMoment]

Oh - it gets worse. Perhaps HRE isn't so strong in the middle east. I was assuming that's where it's extra cities were. But now I've just seen HRE has Breslau. I need to go through Poland to take it.

[CatharticMoment]

OK - a few more turns played and despite Portugal being saved by the Pope, I advanced elsewhere, taking Frankfurt from the HRE, Rennes from England and Thessalonica from the Byzantines.

I've discovered there is a route to Breslau. Venice has Krakow so in theory I can go from Budapest, to Krakow then Breslau. This would leave Poland almost surrounded, which is unlikely to make them happy. At some stage war with Poland appears inevitable, but not for a while - I need to take Nuremburg first.

I also have a fleet currently being repaired in Thessalonica. Next turn, it will take an army from there to invade the Venetian islands, whilst another army takes Corinth. This will leave Thessalonica weak for a few turns. But it should be able to build it's own militia quickly, and I have more forces moving up. I should be able to get away with it.

Also - the Mongols are coming. Hopefully they'll be kind enough to wipe out the HRE crusader possessions for me. Knowing my luck the two will probably end up as allies.

[Muagan_ra]

I've been there - a Milan game can be fun, but terribly arduous.

Your Genoese Crossbow Militia will always be useful, they're very good at mowing down English heavy infatry. If you want to use castle units, you can get Genoese Crossbowmen, an improvement on the militia units - for that extra punch.

I'd really recommend you invest in gunpowder, if it's been discovered yet - in my Milan game I found that a few batteries of Ribault can make heavy infantry armies run before they even reach your lines. Upgrade your cities barracks as well, to make use of Milans excellent gunpowder infantry.

With Milan you have Broken Lances (mounted and dismounted) as well as Famiglia Ducale - so there's no reason why you can't go toe-to-toe with your rivals infantry and cavalry. Theirs may be slightly better at very high tech levels, but there isn't a big enough gap to make these very good Milaneese units obsolete.

From a strategic point of view, conquering your enemies empires might just mean you're opening up even more fronts and inviting more wars, and it will be a strain on your armies and generals. You won't have enough governors to go around, and you'll have to maintain a lot more armies than you might otherwise need to.

If I where you I'd consider pushing East instead, focussing your efforts on Byzantium.

[CatharticMoment]

This is turning into an AAR

Gunpowder is still a few turns away from being discovered, and my cities aren't big enough to build Broken Lances.

Having taken Corinth, my immediate aims are:

a) Take Crete from Venice.

b) Take Breslau from HRE. I've found there's a small tongue of land heading east from Frankfurt. I can use this to attack without stepping through Polish territory. Breslau is weakly defended.

c) Take Byzantium, and hence kick the Byzantines out of europe.

If I achieve the above then I'll still be 5 cities short of the win, needing Nuremburg/Adana/Antioch from the HRE, and Sofia/Krakow from Venice.

After that, most of what I want in Europe is well defended. I'll have to grind the cities down one by one.

I'd quite like to achieve peace with the Anglo/Danish alliance, although I've no idea how to achieve it. Even if I negotiate a cease fire with one of them, the other is still likely to stir trouble with it's diplomats, and I'm likely to be back at war with both quite soon.

The Mongols have shown up east of Turkey. This means the Egyptians are probably safe, but the Turks and/or Russians should worry. Not something to concern me in the short term, but it does emphasise the need to fortify Byzantium after I take it.

The pope has woken up, and is laying siege to the moors in Valencia. Assuming he succeeds, this will make the Iberian situation even more complex, with 5 powers cramped into a tiny space.

So - what I need to consider is:

1) What to do with Breslau after I take it? I will be close to surrounding the Polish territory of Prague, which is likely to piss them off. Should I: a) keep it, b) Give it to our mutual allies Hungary, or c) Give it to my allies Scotland or even d) Give it to Poland.

Giving the place to the Pope is out of the question. He already loves me and white against white will confuse my map-makers.

2) After I take Crete, should I send the army back to Europe in order to finish mopping up my enemies there, or should I head for the HRE crusader possessions, and risk running into the Mongols early (I think they're going north, but I'm not 100% sure).

[CatharticMoment]

I ended up successfully taking Breslau from the HRE and Iriklion (Crete) from the Venetians, but haven't reached Byzantium yet. I also took Zaragosa from the Spanish.

Now things are about to get eventful. I've got several battles to fight in my next turn:

- Against a HRE full stack near Nuremburg
- Attacking Nuremburg itself
- Taking Toledo from the Spanish (this will eliminate the Spanish from the game)
- Attacking a Byzantine half-stack on the Thessalonica/Byzantium road

Assuming the first two battles are successful (they should be), then this will wipe out the HRE in europe and reduce them to their crusader possessions.

The venetians briefly sieged Thessalonica, but backed off almost immediately. Perhaps all those papal bribes are paying off? Venice is also at war with Poland in the north, and this is weakening it enough, that Krakow could become a decent target.

In other news, the Mongols went to war with the turks, the Pope died, the new pope declared peace with the moors, then decided the previous pope had the right idea, and he went back to war again.

[CatharticMoment]

Actually, another strategy has just occurred to me.

Given the entire might of the Polish kingdom is currently directed at one province (Krakow), and Venice has very little remaining economic power behind it, I may be safe in assuming that the province will eventually fall without any action from me.

In which case I should try to avoid war with Poland myself (to let it finish the job). Which means after I take Nuremburg, I should get a ceasefire with the HRE (shouldn't be too hard since they will be so far away in the middle east.) Since HRE and Poland are allied, this should improve relations with Poland. A ceasefire with the HRE should also make it possible to end the cold war with Sicily.

In which case to achieve my victory, my military objectives would be to send substantial forces to take Sofia from Venice (it is currently guarded by 2 full stacks). Then if Poland takes Krakow, all I'd have to do would be to boat some armies off to the middle east, and break the ceasefire with the HRE, and wipe out it's 2 cities in a single turn.

Might work and it would offer a cleaner path to victory. But it relies on a)the Polish doing a decent job and b) the Polish not turning round and backstabbing me, thus weakening their attack on Krakow.

May be simpler just to walk in and take Krakow myself. Which is likely to piss the Polish off. Shrugs.

[Viking Prince Olaf]

Wow never thought id hear the words quote:I'm having trouble with more advanced tech based factions:quote when playing as Milan!

If you simply keep your spearmen upgraded you shouldn't have A problem fighting of heavy infantry or cavelry,...... Genose crossbowmen (militia alike) can be turned into moderate heavy infantry to SUPPORT your spearmen but do not rely on them too much in battle....

By 60 turns you should be reaching your age where Milan takes it's great steps to improving it's tech before gunpowder arrives...You left out how your economy and navy is doing.

Your already spread out to Pamplona, I suggest offering it as A gift to A
person your at war with that you don't need to be and focus on Venice and HRE.

You'll find it easier to stick with your current arrangments of basing your armies on strong militia as it is really the backbone of the whole Milanese
military; not to mention how much money and valuble time it would take TO convert to castle level troops and mass produce them.........

[hypern]

Move fast and quickly to the North and then you must confront the Byzantines and the mIDDLE eAST.

[Viking Prince]

Water under the bridge now, but how could you let the HRE go on a crusade and not take Milan on the same Crusade to prevent this from being an issue? Did Venice tie you down that much?

[CatharticMoment]

Well at the time of the first crusade, I was having to fight off a france/sicily/HRE alliance, and the HRE was the most powerful AI faction in the game. I simply didn't have the spare troops to send to the crusade myself, whilst the HRE did. If anything, my original mistake was paying too much money to the HRE when I brought Bologna from them early in the game. This gave them their crusader war-chest. However, it's too late now.

I played a little further over the weekend, taking Adana by boat, and advancing from Greece into the Byzantine empire. The Byzantines are largely defeated, with only two settlements left (Constantionple, Caesarea), both under siege. I could take Constantinople immediately if I bother to play through the battle.

Meanwhile, despite losing Adana, the HRE has taken the province inland from Antioch (Aleppo?), so remain on two provinces, with 3 stacks guarding. The Mongols have hit the egyptians hard, and control much of the south-east Mediterranean . And, as is typical with my luck in this game, the Mongols have decided to ally with the HRE.

I predict after the Mongols finish with the Egyptians, they're likely to go for the Turks, and through them into me, which imposes some urgency. But if I attack the HRE too quickly, and only take one of their two settlements, then this will give me a border with the Mongols, and could put me strongly on the defensive. There's also the strong possibility of the pope stepping in with excommunication warnings.

All this is becoming rather complicated. I now have over 50 provinces, but still no quick way to get am quick win. I can advance , but apart from Constantinople, many of the former Byzantine cities are quite underdeveloped, lacking simple things like city watches, which makes my supply lines quite long until I can develop the cities some more.

[CatharticMoment]

Finally won it - turn 110 with 67 regions controlled.

So much for a "short" game!

[Viking Prince]

Congrats!