Former head of MI5 says terror threat exploited to curb civil liberties.

[mongrel]

Nothing that we have not worked out already, but coming from Britain,s former spy chief, this has some clout.

I might add that the terror threat industry is also a lucrative business in its own right.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...s-1623795.html

Also a useful summing up here

"Giving evidence to the panel, Sir Ken Macdonald, Britain's Director of Public Prosecutions said: There is no such thing as a 'war on terror'... The fight against terrorism on the streets of Britain is not a war. It is the prevention of crime, enforcement of our laws ..."
"The report also says the "war on terror" is repeating the mistakes made by the British in Northern Ireland. It states: "Sometimes the parallels are almost surreal. Witnesses talked of the failed detention policies in Northern Ireland as having led to 'hundreds of young men in working-class nationalist communities joining the IRA and creating one of the most efficient insurgency forces in the world ...' One must wonder, 30 years later, what impact the sight of the treatment of detainees at Guantánamo Bay or Abu Ghraib is having on young Muslims in Britain and elsewhere."

[Ahlerich]

i fear people that dont buy this by now will never be convinced of the real purpose the terror hype had/has

[removeduser_487563287433]

Like Mongrel says, definitely not anything new, but heads and former heads of the security services do not generally speak out on anything, let alone so definitively.

[Каие]

To be the third person to say this, we knew this already, but it's quite significant how MI5 has ted the governments policy both through this former head, and through the various reports showing government conclusions and public belief are false.

[Admiral Piett]

This clearly shows the danger in how an intelligence agency can manipulate foreign and even domestic policy. There needs to be a tighter grip on the CIA and MI5.

I'm usually not a big fan of Bill Maher, but he made an excellent point about terrorism in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-nhFZvVQ7o

[Каие]

No way, in the run up to the Iraq war the government used MI6/SIS to spread a propaganda campaign in the media to exaggerate the threat of Hussein. The services should be loyal to the people, country and Queen, not to Tony Blair or whoever wears his face in the future.

[The Devil's Sergeant]

What civil liberty is she saying has been curbed?

[Каие]

The abolishing of habeas corpus.

[The Devil's Sergeant]

The abolishing of habeas corpus.

For whom?

[Каие]

Every citizen and resident of these Isles.

[The Devil's Sergeant]

Every citizen and resident of these Isles.

Do residing in a place confer equality with a citizen?

Did not the english government when it found german spies in WW2 give them two options, cooperation or execution? And didn't it do so secretly?

Is the english government is abducting its own citizens?

[Каие]

Do residing in a place confer equality with a citizen?

yes. In a modern civilised society that is.

Is the english government is abducting its own citizens?

there is no such thing as either the 'English government', or an 'English citizen'.

Did not the english government when it found german spies in WW2 give them two options, cooperation or execution? And didn't it do so secretly?

I fail to see the relevance of this in any way, shape or form.

[The Devil's Sergeant]

yes. In a modern civilised society that is.

So the UK allows illegal aliens the franchise?

there is no such thing as either the 'English government', or an 'English citizen'.

Its all the same to me.

I fail to see the relevance of this in any way, shape or form.

One can hardly say civil rights have been curbed when 70 years ago the exact same thing was happening. A more apt title for the article should be, "Civil Rights Remain Subjective."

[Каие]

So the UK allows illegal aliens the franchise?

Give me a moment to point out everything wrong with that statement.

a/ ''Illegals'' You have drawn up an elaborate straw man by going from, in your previous post, ''residents'' to ''illegal aliens'', the two are not the same.

• Under British law EU citizens are free to move here and live with no visa making them residents, but not illegal.
• Under British law Commonwealth citizens are free to move here and live with no visa making them residents, but not illegal.
• Under British law non-EU/Commonwealth citizens are, providing they fulfil certain skill/education requirements, free to move here and live with a visa and work permit making them residents, but not illegal.
• Under British law, refugees and asylum seekers from dangerous countries with the right need and reason, are free to move here and live here as asylum seekers making them residents, but not illegal.

b/ ''Franchise''. Franchise meaning the right to vote, yes commonwealth and EU citizens have the right to vote in local elections for their local councillor while they live in that ward as a permanent long term address.

This brings me to ask, what on earth to either of those things have in common or in any relation to the topic and thread?

Its all the same to me.

Frankly, my dear, I don't give damn. There is no English government, and if you're prepared to make a confident 'irrefutable' you should take the precautions to get your facts/details correct and accurate and use the correct terminology. If you cannot distinguish between England, and the United Kingdom how can we trust your analytical skills or any future comparison you make?

One can hardly say civil rights have been curbed when 70 years ago the exact same thing was happening. A more apt title for the article should be, "Civil Rights Remain Subjective."

Like this comparison here.

A failure of logic, I thought this was what it was. Hold on once again so I can show you everythign wrong with this thought process and resulting statement.

a/ Comparing the (false by the way) treatment of German spies during the most bloody war in human history to the treatment of British citizens and residents in a time of peace, is in no way, shape or form either logical or right.

b/ With this analogy, the USA or UK for that matter should not complain that our rights are being curbed because 300 years ago we were both under an absolute monarchy.


What you've failed to realise, is in between the second World War and the 21st Century our rights had in fact increased. Greatly to come in line with a modern democratic and civilised state. After this period of civil rights increases, it is now being curbed again. Ja?

The worst thing as I see it is that there's very little we can do in order to stop these flagrant transgressions of our civil liberty. The two major parties seem resolutely determined to vote on these measures - and the Lib Dems who are broadly "better" are all but politically neutered.

Excuse me? The conservative Party has voted strongly against all ''anti-terror'' laws, ID cards, detention without charge etc.

[mongrel]

The government now also has the right to keep records of every e-mail and internet transaction in the UK.

Is the english government is abducting its own citizens?

British nationals have been abducted with the knowledge of security forces.

http://www.stephengrey.com/2006/03/m...rendition.html

[Yorkshireman]

The government now also has the right to keep records of every e-mail and internet transaction in the UK.



British nationals have been abducted with the knowledge of security forces.

http://www.stephengrey.com/2006/03/m...rendition.html

Most of those were resident in the UK, not nationals or citizens, they simply live here.

I can agree with the arguement that the civil liberty of the population as a whole has suffered as a result of so called "anti-terror" legislation but I have no sympathy for a foreign nationals who find themselves arrested in strange parts of the world involved in dubious activity. I think the average man would agree with me.

[Kiljan Arslan]

yeah and how is the fact that it happaned in world war two in any way relevant?

[Ahlerich]

the german spies where no civilians and no english citizens

[Stalins Ghost]

The worst thing as I see it is that there's very little we can do in order to stop these flagrant transgressions of our civil liberty. The two major parties seem resolutely determined to vote on these measures - and the Lib Dems who are broadly "better" are all but politically neutered.

We need someone with the balls to stand up against the insipid politicians who are supposedly there to benefit society. Our country really is going down the .

[Каие]

Except there are those resident foreigners who are simply handed over to the Americans to stick in ''Camp Justice''. Then again when we sat down with the States to write up the extradition treaty the US proceeded to climb up on top of the table and rape the UK. After this finished the UK asked for more.

The result is a ridiculously one-sided extradition treaty.