A comprehensive guide to Medieval 2 Total War Diplomacy

[painter]

FootSoldier, you were at war with four factions, you had only one alliance and the game normalises all reputation to zero (Mixed) every turn. It is of little surprise that your reputation dropped from Reliable to Mixed. Going to war against Milan to aide your Venetian allies would not have helped maintain your reputation, unless you managed to fulfil a rather difficult and complicated requirement of aiding your allies - Venice and Milan must attack each other and your army must be near enough to aide your Venetian allies in that same battle. I have yet to manage that myself.

[eXistenZ]

Good piece of writing. The AI annoys me as hell, that's why i think that even Empire is sometimes better than medievall (at least you don't have everybody backstabbing you)

I admit that i always make a fair amount of alliances in the beginning, but for the rest i never do things that are bad for my reputation: i don't loot conquered rebel settlements, i never declare war,.. Yet everybody akes the pis at me. Last game as france: alliance with HRE, royal marriage with spain. Milan attacked, me as expected. In the course of the 10 next turn both HRE and Spain betrayed me, and England also joined the fighting. THat'w when i quitted. I know the game is called total war, but this i more "total war...everybody against the player".

By recruiting assassin's and spies my rulers have a lot of dread, but even then my faction's reputation still stays thrustworthy... and yet they backstab and attack me. The pope as ally (what i do every game) isn't any help, cause he just ask to stops fighting, only threatening me with excommunication. So what do you recommend me, OP?

[FootSoldier]

Hmm ... Painter - how do you mean that the reputation is normalized to Mixed each turn? I understood that relations with other factions dropped each turn on vhd, so you have to actively maintain them. I do this with those who are important to me, mainly allies, and the Pope if catholic, mainly by giving money or map information. I don't know about the normalizing to Mixed - please explain.

In the Turkish campaign example above Turkey was Reliable for about 150 turns, then dropped to Mixed at the incident I mentioned. Somewhere in the subsequent war with Milan, around turn 200, it dropped to Dubious. I missed the drop, being preoccupied with glorious battle after battle with the invading Milanese empire.

I've been experimenting with being a peacenik, along the lines of the in game quote that a bad peace is better than war - hence Turkey accepted vassalage to the Byz. In the blockade example where Turkey failed to help ally Venice Turkey was allied to Venice, the Papacy and vassal to the Byzantines - tho' 10 times the size of the Byz. (It was a fascinating campaign, with lots of new situations for me. Super power Turkey ended up assisting minnow Byz to take Ragusa from the Milanese, and was assisting at the siege of Milanese Venice when I stopped.)

In that example where I had a very strong feeling that Turkey should help Venice by lifting the blockade, and I actually felt embarrassed when I withdrew. I opted for convenience. The storm on the withdrawn fleet seemed to be saying "shame" "shame" (I knew from M1TW that "natural" events signify a game situation)... and Turkey's reputation dropped for the first time in some 150 turns. So, something was going on.

I know it's an anecdote that doesn't prove anything. Likewise the 2 alliances cancelled following trade agreements with the enemy of an ally (on vhd). They do, however, support the general position that Claudius2007 presents.

I do believe the AI presents a puzzle with diplomacy - particularly on keeping allies, but generally on relations with other factions. I don't think it's just "stupid", as many say, though it might be flawed. I also think it's designed to be solved in game, though obviously reference to values in files helps. (That said, I was very interested in Incomitatus' remarks above, and the linked Hossi thread. I've copied them :d).

In M1TW I learned you could keep allies to the 2/3rds victory, even with virtually undefended common borders. It required a radical shift in my game style from greedy warlord conqueror with huge armies and millions of florins in the treasury to a "man of principle". Many of the principles followed through to RTW and, I believe, here to M2TW (as they did from STW to M1TW. Does anyone remember the old geezer in STW you could consult who would say something incredibly cryptic. The only one I understood was about "why have 3 armies when 1 will do?").

So, I'm hoping to solve the diplomatic puzzle, and full credit to Claudius2007. I haven't checked the detail, but the outline fits my experience from STW to here. I hope he posts more - and I hope there's more evidence from the moddable files.

Hmm ... long post. You may know the next bits, but here's something to try with your dud diplomats that I have fun with:

Demand 100 florins from your allies and neutrals, and discover what, if anything, they want from you (WARNING: they may ask for military access or for you to attack their enemy who is neutral to you)
- this is a must if you're Islamic and everyone joins a crusade against you. It's payday!
- try it on the Mongols after they settle in Antioch or Kiev, and discover their priorities

Oh, and use your dud diplomats and princesses to walk up down in enemy territory, especially newly conquered/low loyalty/low garrison. Take a spy, and watch the rebels appear. (Ships do this too, but it seems overdone, especially around Thorn.)

[painter]

You can refer to this wiki page about reputation. Most, if not everything, is in there.

With the help of the guide, my English vanilla VH/M campaign currently has 49 territories, two allies and five wars with a Trustworthy reputation. Unless something changes, I'm expecting my reputation to drop to Very Reliable.

[FootSoldier]

Painter, thanks, that's brilliant. I'm new here, and there's loads of great info in the community.

eXistenZ - how do I know you took Dijon? Sympathy for the consequences if you didn't know them.

Taking Dijon is the biggest challenge in the early France game. It's a trigger state; rich and the key strategic territory in Western Europe, bordering HRE, Italy, France, and Switzerland. It's wanted by the HRE and Milan, regardless of alliances whether with you or between themselves. In my experience taking Dijon ALWAYS means war with Milan, and usually with the HRE.

The second bit is the balance of power thing. If France has taken Dijon, Toulouse and Brest, maybe Bruges, then it's the most powerful state in Europe, likely the game. Who's next? Certainly the English in Normandy are afraid, and the Spanish .. and Milan and the HRE feel in the firing line. Everyone tries to cut it down to size.

Taking Dijon means a lot of preparation for the consequences, most immediately with Milan. Of course, you can't let Milan take it, regardless of your alliance with them. Marseilles would be next. The best thing is not to ally with Milan if France. The HRE will usually stop at Dijon (though they want Metz, and Marseilles/Provence was historically part of the HRE)

And where was your France going to go next? You were allied to most of your neighbours ... crusades to the Holy Land? Don't imagine that the Danes will let you have Antwerp, or the Spanish ignore you attacking Portugal. If Portugal and Spain are at war watch them ceasefire ... and watch your Spanish alliance go down the tube. Whether allied or not don't think no one cares about Zaragoza either.

Generally, when you plan to take a rebel territory you need to check out who else wants it ... they are not all up for grabs. Some are obvious, but others not, and there's a few no one cares about much. Most are in another faction's want list, some in several factions want list, and guarantee war regardless of alliances. (Think: Zaragoza, Prague, Sofia, Antioch, Kiev, Durazzo ....) If you're going to take it don't ally with the factions that want it.

An alliance does not mean you can take any rebel territory you like without losing the alliance.

Figuring out what your allies and neighbours want is key in M2TW diplomacy. See if anyone has priests, assassins, spies or diplomats there. Send your own in - do existing ones leave? Do others come in? Send a family member to march up and down a bit and check the reaction of neighbours, and your relations with them. If you don't need it and your ally wants it leave it alone if you want to keep the alliance. If you want to break the alliance take it, and let him be the one to attack you and suffer the rep loss.

*******************************************************************************

M2TW is loosely based on history, and the history is interesting. Dijon (Burgundy)was owned by the HRE 1034 - 1378, and then was split between France and HRE, and parts went to Italy (Savoy) and Switzerland.

Semi-independent, it allied with England against France in the 100 years war, and handed Joan of Arc to the English to be burnt. (The French king's men had murdered the duke's dad, so he had a reason to be pissed). Much of the that time its army was larger than France's, it was richer than the Emperor was, and it fought with France, Switzerland and the HRE. This ended when the Duke, Charles the Bold, was defeated and killed by Swiss Pikemen in the battle of Nancy in 1477. Burgundy was the major factor in several centuries of war in Western Europe.

Burgundy also owned most of the Netherlands through marriage. The Duke, Charles the Bold, was trying to join Burgundy to the Netherlands by taking Lorraine (Metz) when he was killed.

Later the HRE Emperor Charles V, became Duke of Burgundy through marriage, and hence vassal to France for that. He was also King of Spain, and the Netherlands was separated from Burgundy and ruled by Spain for a couple of hundred years. What was left of Burgundy didn't become all French for another couple of hundred years (1678).

[eXistenZ]

Well since i wasn't allied to Milan or England, and war with them was soon to arrive (as always with Milan, and if i remeber well i bought caen from england, although i'm not sure)) that was going to be my next step. So now your advice is: stop conquering? i don't know, i always thought that was the point of a TW-game.

And yes, offcours i took Dijon. You barely make money with france at the start, so a city or two extra is welcome. I can understand that HRE isn't happy with that, but why would Spain blow up a royal marriage because of Dijon?

[FootSoldier]

Well, I'm sure that taking Dijon was what started France's troubles. I'm not sure why Spain joined in at that point, other than the balance of power ... or maybe something else? Taking Zaragoza would get the Portuguese and Spanish started.

You already have Caen - bought from the English? Wow! (The English refused to discuss selling Caen to me the couple of times I did France. It was always Dijon that kicked things off - when I played England war started with the HRE at that point, and if it had been held by France then Milan would join in. Usually Milan has it in my games, and I've watched Milan and the HRE fight over it. It was the same in M1TW, where it was called Burgundy and started as an HRE territory, not rebel).

In my experience France can get really powerful quickly, and then everyone gangs up on you.

Of course you keep conquering! My point was just be prepared for the consequences of what seems like an easy win.

On diplomacy generally, not taking certain territories, and testing with agents works for me. If there's say, a priest on the territory and he leaves when mine come in I take is as good. If he stays, or others come in then it means a fight. It's not just rebel territories, either.

This is a screenshot from my current Poland campaign where I have a marriage alliance with France. Poland has the Danes down to the single territory, Bruges, and it's been like this for 60 turns. To me it seems completely obvious that taking Bruges will start a war with France, regardless of the alliance. They don't care about the Danes - they have a spy in Bruges, an assassin outside, some troops in an ambush situation on Bruges territory. The Danes must hate them.

But I don't take Bruges, and neither does France, which could do easily if it wanted. I note the French merchant that stands outside Poland's Antwerp, and I'm happy to leave him there too. He gives Poland about 20 florins a turn from trade, and reassures France that Poland isn't building an army there. In fact, the French activity helps Poland because it stops the Danes from attacking Antwerp, where there is just a small militia garrison. Out east Poland is at war with the Mongols, the Timurids, and the Byz, and doesn't want the distraction of fighting the other power on the map - yet. If I want to try out Poland vs France then I'll take Bruges for the battles it will bring but I don't need it for victory.

I hope this seems relevant to the diplomacy thread *fingers crossed*

[eXistenZ]

Yeah when playing poland i had no problems, especcially since the HRE got excommunicated. And no, i didn't take Zaraoza when i was france. I'm not completly sure about Caen either,cause it has been a while ago, but i certainly tried it and got it on some games.

[Lennert]

After reading the OP I became confident to start a VH/VH with Milan. By turn 13 I had been attacked by Venice, the Moors, Sicily and the Byzantine empire... All I had done diplomatically was an alliance with the papacy and spain, only trade rights with france. It's unplayable.. I wasn't being hostile at all either. All I took was florence (ofcourse).

[FootSoldier]

Seems that some thought taking Florence was hostile ... ouch!

I'm curious, and since this is the diplomacy thread - did your reputation change when you took Florence? There's a hit for taking anywhere, rebel or not, but was it enough to push your rep down? What happened to the rep of the factions that attacked you?

My experience is that taking any rebel place upsets someone, though some are much more upsetting than others. It looks like Florence is one of those "very upsetting" takes.

For logic, put yourself in the place of the attacking factions. Milan takes Florence. The obvious next step is Milan takes Ajaccio and Cagliari. Milan is on the road to being a superpower, and definitely is the dominant power in the Western Mediterranean.

Who else is in the Western Med. Ok, the Moors, who want to get to Tunis, and you've already allied with their natural enemy Spain. Sicily is - Spain/Portugal not this early. Why the Byz? Guessing, but historically the Byzantines had a claim to southern Italy and Sicily (taken off them by those Norman mercenaries 30 years before the game start, and they tried to take it back in the game period. In M1TW they start with Naples), and to north Africa (lost to the Arabs in the 700's, but still claimed.)

Of course, France has big interests in the Western Med. I'd be watching them very closely from now, and trying to keep them sweet. They're probably just waiting to see if the others cut you down. Mind you, you can maintain amiable relations with factions you're at war with. They might just blockade you to cancel trade, but not actually attack you with armies.

I don't think I've ever seen Milan take Florence in the opening stages. In my games they always go Bern to Dijon, mix it up with France and the HRE, and then fight with the Venetians and whoever else is in reach. I've seen Sicily take Florence, the HRE take it from Bologna, but never the Pope.

I mean, the game is full of traps. Anything that seems easy has strings, and the AI (Council of Nobles number one suspect) is always trying to get you in trouble with other factions. Lots of places stay rebel for a long time not, I think, because the surrounding factions are too lazy or stupid to take them, but because it will start wars.

What strikes me about your list of enemies is that it's the opposite of the my usual Milanese list. Going north brings in France, the HRE, and Venice. Seems going south (Florence) brings in Sicily, the Moors and the Byz. You'd probably get the same reaction if you go straight to Corsica/Sardinia (Cagliari and Ajaccio). Lurking in the background will be Egypt and Venice, especially if you jump on the Byz in Corinth or similar.

So you know your enemies. Could you keep neutral with the French, HRE and Venice by way of compensation? (Well, o.k, Venice is a stretch, but they should soon be fighting the Byz over Durazzo).

And, there is an upside. Looks like the alliance with Spain should be strong, and they should soon be fighting the Moors. Reputation-wise you don't need to start the war to take Sicily. You can take Tunis and Algiers too (though taking Morocco will can your alliance with Spain, and even Algiers might weaken it).

My impression is that the only safe place for Milan to take is Bern, and that probably annoys the HRE and France. You might get away with it if you don't take Dijon.

Through all this, and in this thread, you're trying to keep a good reputation and stable allies. It seems to me that you're well-placed to do that, especially with Spain. I'd be very interested to know how it goes, and who else you might ally with ... maybe the HRE? I don't think France will make a reliable ally now - could be wrong - but maybe someone to counter them. England? And maybe the Turks or Egypt, possibly Hungary to counter the Byz?

Keep us posted ^^

[Lennert]

When I took florence, my rep didn't change. It has been mixed since the start of the game, it still is. I occupied Florence and kept a fairly large force there, about half a stack.

Sicily was the first to attack me(Genoa), for some reason they did this with a rediculously small force. I sallied against them, defeated them and released any prisoners since I'm going for the chivalrous path here. they didn't withdraw their army but kept it standing next to Genoa. After this they asked for a cease fire, which I honoured. Army stays put.

After this everything seems fine and I take Ajaccio with a single general(Occupy). I made my alliance with spain and a trade agreement with france. I did this in accordance with the OP which says both of those factions are doves, but an alliance with france is too risky. Rep is still mixed.

Now I Occupy Cagliari with some militia (5 units or so). Rep is still mixed. But after this all hell breaks loose. Suddenly there's a Moorish and Byz army next to Cagliari and just a Moorish one near Genoa. A Moorish diplomat asks for trade rights, which I decline since their motives clearly aren't peacefull. The moorish army near Cagliari attacks, I defeat them and fend of the army near Genoa (I attack, they withdraw) after which I ask for a cease fire which they agree on.

Next things that happens is that a Venetian diplomat demands I become their vassal (not a chance), I decline and they attack with a small force (Milan). I defeat them but the next turn the diplomat repeats his demand, which I decline again after which a full stack including their king attacks Milan!!

This is where I am now.. I've tried to defend against that army twice now but I'm having great difficulty with an extremely annoying bug where my framerate drops to about half a frame per sec. after I have set the game speed to 6x and back to 1x... Happened both times and I had to kill the game via task manager. I guess I have to try again without touching the game speed button. I've never had this before and it sucks!!

Edit: Some screens.

After seeing these again I think there might be some chronologic errors in my story, as it seems the moors attacked between the two venetian attacks.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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I'm afraid my campaign is looking quite hopeless allready

[painter]

In my game as England, after I had taken Toulouse from the French via diplomacy, Moors and Sicily landed small stacks there and proceeded to attack me. They were easily repelled of course, but I was still rather shocked that they would bother to take to the boats just so they can say hi. At least it was nice of them to ask for a ceasefire and gave me a gift of about 8,000 florins for being such messy guests.

And then I eventually expanded to Ajaccio and naturally Milan, Moors and Sicily decided to pay me a visit there. After repelling Milan's attack, I followed them back home with another stack from Toulouse and rather permanently ended them. Byzantine never visited me until I took Alexandria from Egypt.

It seems to me that the Moors and Sicily are bigger loose cannons than Milan. I've recently made an alliance with Sicily. Time will only tell just how well they would stick with it.

[Lennert]

Allright, somehow I managed to win a heroic victory against the Venetian dog! I stayed of the speed button, thus avoiding the technical problem.

Here's how the battle went globally:

I had posted my four standards right in front of the gate in order to prevent the enemy from pushing my troops to death after breaking it. I put my single unit of archers on the wall so it could inflict whatever marginal damage it could on the enemy. I put all of my spears in reserve behind the wall so I could send them wherever I needed them. The 2 units of mounted sergeants I posted close to the gate because I wanted to use them for a suicide mission against the enemy siege engines in order to reduce their options to just one.
My general was posted at the gate at the right side of the city, he was going to do all the dirty work I also had reinforcements consisting of a single general and a battered unit of mailed knights (more important than you'd think).

When the battle started I sent out both units of mounted sergeants against the enemy ram and siege tower. I managed to make them forget those items before my sergeants routed (which is brilliant!!) I did this by keeping the units using these engines occupied untill the unit with the ladders reached the wall, granting all infantry entrance to the city, defeating the purpose of the other engines(in principle). I was able to pull my sergeants away from the enemy before they were annihilated. One of them heavily battered, the other more or less unscaved. I left them in reserve at a safe distance for now.

Now I had to get rid of the enemy cavalry, including their faction leader and his bodyguard. I sent my king around the city to the back of the enemy cavalry who were standing on idle since they can't climb stairs! I did the same with the other general and his mailed knights. Before they could join my king though, the enemy king charged. I made my king do the same and let the other heavy cav join him when they arrived. I then started a roulette of charges making my units take turns on charging the enemy king while also keeping the enemy units of mailed knights at bay. Well, to make a long story short, this resulted in the enemy king being captured and all of their mailed knights dead. My generals were both left with about 20 bodyguards while my mailed knights were down to 15 men.

During all that, all of the enemy infantry had gathered around the foot of the ladders and had started a melee with my militia who had replaced my archers on the wall. Since this wasn´t working out brilliantly for them and they were also being shot by my towers, most of their units were "shaken". So I gathered what was left of my cavalry, surrounded them and charged the enemy infantry from all sides, causing a mass rout.

Battle won!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[FootSoldier]

Brilliant result! Heroic victory :d. Congrats!

Um, I'm conscious this is the diplomacy guide sticky, despite the fact of discussing particular campaigns. Are there any general diplomatic principles at work here?

First one for me is that rebel territories matter to other factions, whether they take them or not. Expect reactions.

Second, think regionally, not by individual territories. Who else in the region is affected? In this case, clearly Sicily is, also the Moors ... the Byz have joined. France is an obvious one, despite the Venetians attacking first.

I think there's always a balance of power consideration - as was the case historically, despite the efforts of various factions to become European conquerors. Napoleon was still at it many centuries later, and it didn't stop till Hitler. None of them succeeded because everyone else ganged up on them. England was a notable balance of power player. The same seems to happen in M2TW. It's not the AI being broken/stupid/random/insane - it reflects what happened in history.

Here Milanese expansion is definitely disturbing the peace, and everyone relevant is telling it so. It's the United Nations peacekeeping force in Cagliari. The message couldn't be clearer - LEAVE CAGLIARI ALONE. Milan hasn't listened, and fair enough. It's not that you shouldn't expand - of course you should, that's the game. It's anticipating the consequences and trying to counter them - including diplomatically.

In particular - seems the small force from Sicily was a warning, not an attempt at conquest. The Sicilians were telling Milan "back off, we'll fight you if you don't". The Sicilians were willing to let it drop if Milan stopped expanding. They didn't - now Milan has Ajaccio and Cagliari. And, the Sicilians set a diplomatic trap. Now it has to be Milan to start the war with them to get rid of their armies at Genoa and Cagliari ... unless they get desperate to attack first in Cagliari.

It's easy to see why. From the direction of current Milanese expansion Sicily is the obvious next step. Tunis should follow ... and the French must be thinking "how long will Marseilles be safe?".

Be honest - the Moors and Sicilians are right. Milanese expansion is a big threat to them and their interests, and they expect to be next. They're fighting sooner while you're weaker, rather than later when you're strong. They're not the ones upsetting the balance of power (yet :d). Milan is.

I don't think they're loose cannons. Sicily is certainly expansionist given the chance, but is usually reliable. The Moors usually just mop up north Africa, and are happy with the status quo in Iberia. It's usually the Spanish and/or Portuguese that attack them.

Yes, Venetian neutrality to Milan was too much of a stretch. Those opportunistic dogs :d. Historical enemies for control of trade in the Med they are always going to fight. I doubt the vassalage would have lasted unless Milan stopped right there - which obviously it isn't going to.

I've experimented with being a vassal, despite not feeling the need to. Pride is the obstacle (and the other factions behave the same way). Usually it's a payday - the Byz shelled out 5000 florins and 5000 per turn on 3 occasions in my Turkey campaign. They broke it twice, and I expected them to a third time, but in the end it held, and giant Turkey was helping minnow overlord Byz to take Venice from the Milanese at the end.

I'd like to see something about vassalage in the diplomacy guide. Not just getting them, but also being one. I read that there's a small income loss (tribute?) but I haven't seen this quantified, and couldn't detect it in Turkey's finances. Turkey's Financial Overview screen shows 0 for tributes/diplomacy, despite the vassalage.

When my faction has become a vassal it seems to turn all the enemies to neutral. Then the overlord has always chosen to side with the vassal if their ally and their vassal get into conflict, though they may ceasefire. If this happens I've found it easy (because of military access) to get the overlord back to war with your enemy.

Lennert, what might be interesting is to post Milan's intentions, and what you're going to do about it diplomatically. Is Sicily/Tunis next? Is Milan planning to expand elsewhere? (I'd put a priest in Bern straight away, so the other factions know you want it if you haven't already).

Will the HRE now make a good ally for Milan? They will get into war with Venice at some point - I'm guessing they're moving troops reinforcements from Innsbruck across Venice to Bologna by now. Someone else? Are your relations with other factions changing in all this, and who and why do you think that is?

Btw, despite being a chivalrous conqueror Milan is still a conqueror. There's nothing very chivalrous about beating up little "rebel" states that can't defend themselves against you.

[Lennert]

The current situation is as follows:

The only faction I'm formally at war with at the moment is Venice. My alliances with the pope and spain still hold and I'm planning on keeping both factions happy. An alliance with the pope is good for obvious reasons while an alliance with spain is good since I will most likely be at war with both the moors and france at some point, who also both are natural enemies of spain. I intend to expand south, taking out sicily fast seems compulsory, if I don't they will never leave me alone. After that I intend to help spain with the moors, I will let them take the north African regions in order to keep the alliance strong and prevent spain from being surrounded by my territories.

I don't know what I will do after that, Venice? France? It's to early to tell I think.

For some reason my relations with the HRE went very poor the turn before the Venetian king attacked Milan. It didn't seem logical in any way. I hadn't recruited any more troops in Milan or Florence that turn, nor did anything happen diplomatically. I'm curious how this will develop further, they might attack Florence soon. I certainly hope not!


Diplomacy update:
I'm at turn 20 now. There are some interesting developments. I haven't done anything militarily the past few turns, just trying to solidify my newly aquired regions. I took a calculated risk and made a few more alliances that might be fruitfull. I took the initiative to ally with Hungary since I knew they were bound to help me battle Venice. After that, Laurence Bidell from England came along and offered an alliance, trade rights and their map information without asking anything in return. I accepted and gifted them military access and my map information to improve my relations with them(they will come in very handy when battling France later on). I might get into trouble though, all of these allies could call for my help too soon, before I am capable of helping them, which would damage my reputation. Conveniently though, the only ally that has actually gone to war is Hungary(with Venice). The problem is that I don't know who started the war. Since Venice was reconciled after their king had died in the siege for Milan I can't just attack them now. I hope Venice attacked Hungary so they will eventually get excommed again, if Hungary started it, everything might not turn out so well..

Furthermore, two blocks of alliances seem to be forming. Venice made an alliance with the HRE (not so good!) and afterwards France too allied with the HRE (oops!) My relations with France went to poor after I allied with England (makes perfect sense) and for some reason my relations with Sicily went to very poor. But that might be because I've been consolidating my position on Cagliari, upgrading it to castle and providing it with a governor.

[FootSoldier]

Interesting interesting Lennert. I'll tell you what - vhd/vhd is much more difficult than hd/hd - as the label says.

O.k., this is just my opinion, but my predictions are these, not in any particular order:
- taking Sicily will prompt France and the HRE to attack you
- the Pope will threaten you with excommunication if you attack Sicily
- Spain won't attack the Moors until you are at war with them first
- the Moors and Portugal will ally if/when/before you/Spain start fighting the Moors
- Spain is going to come under a lot of pressure, surrounded by hostiles like Milan is
- Egypt is going to enter the scene

Is the Sicilian army still in Genoa?

Your challenge is to keep good reputation by getting everyone else to attack first. You also need to keep an expanding list of factions happy. Others are going to take an interest. England already has, so obviously they figure you and France will fight, and they want to be part of that action. I'd definitely start engaging with Egypt, too, and try to get them happy with you. What are relations with them like?

To get the others to start the war - can you try the same tactics? Land a couple of units on Sicily until they attack you? Can you do the same with the Moors in Algiers? Anyway, I'd plan to take Sicily in 1 turn for fear of the Papal warning. Do you have a catapult and the numbers to do it?

You're going to lose rep anyway for taking Sicily.

Navies are going to get really important really quickly. Do you have enough ships to fight Sicily, the Moors, the Byz and France?

I'd be thinking about taking Tunis with a crusade if possible ... and taking Tunis will set the Egyptians on edge, so you'll probably see their navy poking about quite soon. I'd be sending a diplomat to Egypt asap. I'd be sure taking Tunis will start war with the Moors.

I'd also be thinking about taking Bern sooner rather than later. Don't forget to put a priest there. Are you thinking of taking it? If you don't, and war starts, then the HRE or France will probably take it. Get there first, maybe before Sicily. Of course, at this delicate moment taking Bern might set the HRE or France off, but I'd gamble on that. You don't want anyone else to have it.

Can you do anything about the Byz? Demand 100 florins from them, and see what they say.

The battle lines are indeed being drawn. The doves are against you - you're seen as the threat.

One thing I remember from my Milan campaign is that after taking Sicily there were a number of attempts by Sicily to get it back. (You can block the land route from Naples with a ship if your navy is strong enough). After some time Sicily offered a ceasefire. At that point my Milan said "no, become a vassal", and they accepted. In my experience the best time to ask for vassalage is when a smaller faction asks for a ceasefire.

You're obviously going to have to think very carefully about this.

On diplomacy, the English and Hungarian alliances sound like good fits. I don't think it matters whether Venice or Hungary started their war. At a guess Zagreb will be the flash point for them. Remember, though, Hungary might accept you taking Venice, but will get very upset if you take Zagreb or Ragusa.

Then there's Hungary and the Byz. Who has Sofia? I'd be getting diplomats and a spy out there asap as well. You need to know what is going on. Ditto getting diplomat and spy into Iberia, to check on your Spanish ally ... and then you also need to know what is happening with France and England around Caen.

Lol. I'm suggesting lots of things at once ... but those are what I'd be thinking about.

I'd say you're still very well placed, stronger, in fact, with the English and Hungarian alliances added to your Spanish one. The challenge for you will be not stepping on your allies toes - make sure you don't take territories that these factions want. Egypt will also be a challenge, but I wouldn't ally with them. They'll take Jerusalem, and then the Pope will call a crusade there.

Lennert - this is interesting. Thanks for posting, and I'm interested to see what happens.

I'm curious what anyone else reading this thread thinks ... are we helping the diplomacy/reputation thread?

[Lennert]

Thanks for your suggestions Footsoldier! Some of them sadly won't apply anymore but others are a great help!

Developments:

Sicily has for some reason dissapeared from my lands. They have left me alone completely and captured Tunis, which is too bad but not a really big problem. Venice has captured Budapest in 1 turn and got excommed after which I commisioned a crusade against venice and captured it. The diplomatic result was that my relations with all of my allies improved to "Good" and relations with the pope were ofcourse perfect. The downside is that the HRE now have a full stack near Bern, they will probably capture it over the next 2 turns. I can't prevent this I'm afraid. Funny thing is that the HRE joined my crusade against Venice and thus are now at war with them, England joined aswell and is also at war with Venice (both wars will probably end in a ceasefire soon but at least the growing northern alliance is shrinking fast). Denmark has also started a war against the HRE, I hope these wars will keep them occupied enough to not engage me for now.

The Byz have finally attacked Cagliari, but Cagliari has a strong garrison by now and at the moment I'm in the process of a sally against them. I'm not planning on prolonging this war.. It doesn't benefit me in any way but I don't know what to do to stop them from attacking me. I just hope their war with the Turks that has just started will divert their attention.

The moors have also attacked Cagliari before the Byz did and I defeated them too, you thought portugal would ally with them? Portugal has started a war against them instead, but relations with Spain are still good. Could Spain and portugal keep the peace? I have to watch this situation very carefully to keep my alliance with Spain.

Next thing I think I need to do is simply grow within my own borders. I need to strengthen my economy, military and fleet in order to advance in this campaign. And as you said, I need to get more intelligence from my regions of interest.

Update: HRE has proposed an alliance!? what do I do? I doesn't seem like a good idea since they're allied with france.. Their priority states "peace" but their rep is "untrustworthy" I'm guessing this is one of those classic backstabbing alliances, so I will not accept. I just hope my rejection won't trigger a war between our nations..

[painter]

If your allies are currently at war with the HRE, I wouldn't accept an alliance with the HRE. But if not, try to reap as much benefits as you can from their offer. After making an alliance, your relationship should be much improved. If you have the florins for it, try to negotiate with them to buy a region that you have been eyeing on. As a tip, you can spread your regular tribute up to 20 turns, so any purchase of territory can be covered by their own income. It is how I got Angers and Toulouse from France.

FootSoldier, Sicily and Moors' attack on Toulouse still doesn't make sense by your logic. I hadn't even the forces there to take Ajaccio or Cagliari at that time. Sicily would have been better served by taking Cagliari and Ajaccio first. But because they started the fight with me, Ajaccio and Cagliari remained in rebel hands, allowing me to take them for free; only risking attacks from Sicily and Moors to attack Ajaccio or Sicily's much weaker garrisons. I had to pull quite a number of heroic victories in order to keep the two islands.

[Lennert]

Strangely, my occupation of Ajaccio has never been challenged at all, ever. I've never had more garrison in it than a single governor and a unit of armoured sergeants. The contrast with Cagliari couldn't have been greater.

[FootSoldier]

Lennert - wow, things certainly have changed, and are going well for you, if not for your allies (Hungary). My experience is that the AI punishes the allies of the player. They don't ever seem to do well, and when I was vassal as Turkey to the Byz I could protect them due to military access, but, boy, did they lack ambition.

Generally, I think you're trying to apply the advice/principles that Claudius2007 has in the guide that starts this thread, with the view of creating stable allies and a maintaining a good reputation.

I'm liking your posts, and they have most everything for me, but I'm not sure how it is for new viewers trying to work out diplomacy, and if Claudius2007 is right. Is it too much effort for each post to set out the reputation/diplomacy situation, and those of your allies/enemies, or maybe just the changes, a bit like the diplomacy screen, something like:

Turn 65
Milan Player - Rep: Mixed,
Pope, Ally - Rep: Mixed, Relations: Perfect
Venice, Enemy - Rep: Dubious, Relations: Abysmal

etc.

Then specify any actions you've taken, like:

Turn 63: Milan took Venice with crusade. Occupied. Change to rep - none. Changes to relations : Allies, all move up to Good. Neutrals, all move up to Good.

Not necessarily like that, but so it's easy to see fluctuations in relations and reputation, and what actions according to the guide you have or haven't taken ... more so for new viewers, who mightn't have the patience to read through all the text.

Then get into the description/analysis bit.

So, to your campaign in particular ... in the South it looks like Sicily and other interested parties have taken a different route to fighting Milan directly. Sicily took Tunis, cutting off your expansion plans that way. Portugal has gone to war with the Moors (Cordoba, I'd bet) cutting off your ally Spain from expanding there. In my games, if Portugal gets Cordoba they'll go after Toledo next.

Key issue - who has Zaragoza? You definitely want Spain to have it, not least to give them a border with France. Of course, they must have Valencia too, but that should be easy for them. Can you help them?

The poor old Moors - no one loves them (not Egypt either). They might ceasefire with you now. Sicily must be their new pet hate. A ceasefire would allow Spain to ally with the Moors against Portugal, if they wanted. Egypt is no longer an immediate issue for Milan since Sicily has Tunis, and you didn't take Sicily. That hopefully will also placate France a bit, though taking Venice must alarm them strategically. Milan is getting stronger.

In the North - I'm sure you were right not to accept the HRE's offer of alliance. If you allied and they took Bern what could you do if you wanted to keep your rep? Nothing. It's not just players who make alliances in the hope it will let them mop up all rebel territories and get the superior position. The troops around Bern might have been bluster ... or it might have been serious. Refusing the alliance will leave the HRE uncertain of what Milan will do, so should probably slow them down. They'll be thinking hard about the consequences of taking Bern.

Have you shown you want Bern? I think this is important - to send signals to other factions about what you want, and priests are a good way to do it. I'd flood Bern with agents right now, so the HRE knows you're going to be pissed if he takes it. Maybe even put a unit or 3 of your own in there, just standing around on rebel territory the way you see the other factions do. If it's going to be a fight then it's going to be a fight anyway. Of course, if you take Bern at this stage that might set the French off.

And, now you have Venice (congrats!). Problem: the HRE wants Venice so Bologna isn't isolated. I'd predict they will start to move troops across Venice between Bologna and Innsbruck. (Again, what could you do if allied with them?) If they do take Bern they'll be wanting to move troops across Milan, too. Eventually they will attack Venice. Managing this is going to be a challenge :d

Venice - I'm not surprised the other factions approved. Venice was out of order taking Budapest. (I think also that a successful crusade improves your reputation and your relations with other catholics.)

Hungary - shame. Your enemy Venice just did that to your new ally Hungary, probably in retaliation for the alliance .. and you're going to turtle and consolidate? As a good ally you should be thinking about how you can help Hungary. Whip over and give them some money at least. Is Hungary reduced to Bran? Do they have Sofia? Bucharest? Iasi?

So to the Byz - the reasons for conflict are deepening. For a start, your alliance with their natural enemy Hungary (Sofia the flashpoint) will have annoyed them. Much depends on how Hungary is situated.

Of more immediate importance to them - now you've got Venice your ships will be in the Adriatic and then the Eastern Med - they will not surrender those waters easily :d. Watch out for the Byz taking Durazzo. They might even ally with the Sicilians (another natural enemy to the Byz historically) or even Venice.

No doubt the war with Turkey will distract the Byz for now, but if they come out on top watch out. You've got a new area to check on how things are going.

One of the things I keep repeating is that every territory matters to someone, and there are trigger states - rebel or faction - that matter to several. (Constantinople is obvious, and painter was sharing his experience over Dijon earlier in this thread). Taking them, especially early, means that you fight with everyone around. This change a bit depending on faction, and the stage of the game.

It seems Cagliari was such a place in this campaign. (I always turn Cagliari into a town, btw. It's got great trade resources). I think it was taking Cagliari that got my Milanese campaign into war with Sicily. Ajaccio is ok for Milan it seems - it's Cagliari that is the trigger territory.

Did you read the wiki page about reputation that painter posted the link to, above? Maybe you know it:
http://www.twcenter.net/wiki/Reputation-M2TW

I think you/I need to read it in conjunction to the guide of Claudius2007.

painter - good tip about how long tribute can go for.

About your Toulouse example, well, I'm not sure why (though I was most amused by the way you described it.) So, here's some things, at a guess:
- the Moors and Sicily were warning England at Toulouse, not trying to conquer it. They were telling you we're here in the Western Med, and serious. If they had been serious about conquest they would never ceasefire.
- did they actually attack Toulouse, or did you attack them when they landed (losing the rep)? If so they scored the diplomatic points
- I think (opinion) that declaring war is often the AI's way of stopping trade rights. I've never had them cancelled by diplomacy.
- Sicily didn't take Ajaccio/Cagliari because it would mean war with Moors/Milan, and vice versa. I think they all want those islands to remain as rebel, so no one has the upper hand in that area. It's about the balance of power. I never see any of them take those islands ... and why not? It's not like they're shy, especially Milan.
- were the Moors and Sicily allied? I'm guessing not.

Many times I've had other factions simply blockade a port, and if left alone, never attack me again. I've had that from factions inland too - they take one swipe at a border guard, and that's it. I've maintained amiable relations with factions I'm at war with like that, and gone for dozens of turns without actually fighting.

Your description of events is very similar to what happened with Lennert. First they turned up and warned you. You didn't take the hint, despite them ceasefiring and giving you compensation. Instead, you went on to do just what they feared - took the islands. So then things got serious.

Were you monitoring rep then? I'll bet the other factions were appalled at your treatment of Milan.

So, with the Toulouse visit something else was going on. I'm not an expert or the developer, so it's a puzzle for the player to work out why they do that. I believe you have to think regionally, not locally, so I'm interpreting that as warning from the interested parties to not disturb the peace in the Western Med. For sure, tho', that wasn't chance behaviour - there was a reason for it.

Oh, and it's not like I think you shouldn't do anything. Obviously you have to conquer to win. This is about how to go about it taking diplomacy into account, and how to understand what the other factions are doing. You're obviously using diplomacy a lot, but, as you know, you can win without any allies, and never making a diplomat. The player can treat M2TW as a straight war strategy game, and win. (I think the Islamic factions can 100% conquer on vhd in 25 turns or so by spamming jihads).

Well, that's my view. What's yours. Why do you think Sicily and the Moors visited you in Toulouse like that?