The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

[AnthoniusII]

lol, Bublius Khannus, Publius Khannus, close enough ill take the praise lol. Thanks for mentioning me

Corected...sorry...

[PubliusKhannus]

lol its perfectly fine m8. Can't wait for your mods to release!!!

[nce_wht_guy]

Any way I can help out? (I have virtually nothing to do over spring break...)

[AnthoniusII]

Any way I can help out? (I have virtually nothing to do over spring break...)

WHAT can you do?

[AnthoniusII]

A sneakpic of the next unit of the Nikephoreans!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[alien_t]

Looking very good.

[juvenus]

I didn't read all the posts so I'm not sure if there's any change regarding Serbia. Anyway, having the Serbs on the Balkans would make situation not only more accurate but also more challenging (I think we all want that).

[PubliusKhannus]

looking good as usual anthonius, whet my appetite some more, more pics!

[sinople]

Send me a pm when you will want me to start working on

Ps: I'll be away the nextweek

[AnthoniusII]

Send me a pm when you will want me to start working on

Ps: I'll be away the nextweek

Sure thing mate!
I am waiting for some improvement of the map and the next stage will be the "entrance" of the factions!

[PubliusKhannus]

alright cool, I'm still awaiting my next task if you have one lol.

[AnthoniusII]

alright cool, I'm still awaiting my next task if you have one lol.

Soon guys...as soon we have something to show...we will show it...
I am a "step by step" kind of guy...
As i already posted before we will show peices of the map (when our mapper reapears),some units that making for GC like some vikngs and some muslims...
There will also be a number of factions presentations..

[Nevada]

very nice unit!

Great quality as always.

[PubliusKhannus]

Soon guys...as soon we have something to show...we will show it...
I am a "step by step" kind of guy...
As i already posted before we will show peices of the map (when our mapper reapears),some units that making for GC like some vikngs and some muslims...
There will also be a number of factions presentations..

Lol Ok, I didnt mean to sound pushy in any way

[AnthoniusII]

We are hoping to show some minor progress preview soon...
How soon?
It depands of our real life issues!
Don't forget that these days are easter for some of us ...
But i strognly believe that this will be realy soon!

[PubliusKhannus]

We are hoping to show some minor progress preview soon...
How soon?
It depends of our real life issues!
Don't forget that these days are Easter for some of us ...
But i strongly believe that this will be really soon!

great news, i believe the results will be great as usual.

[RobinCato]

It's indeed a very interesting setting. Could be a little pearl, when it's finished one day.

[AnthoniusII]

It's indeed a very interesting setting. Could be a little pearl, when it's finished one day.

Thank you my friend...You and your fellow composers will be needed soon to make the music according to each faction...
We are already have a couple of Arn's tracks...
The progress is rather slow for now but i feal that progress will be like a explosion(much matterial in the same time)...
We (with the co operation of other unit roster maker teams)seak to create not only a joyfull mod to play but also a gate to knowlege about that era's history and civilisations that are mostly unknown!

[AnthoniusII]

great news, i believe the results will be great as usual.

Μy friend i have a new task for you...
Please gather any kind of known events that were related to Lombards or in Italy in our time frame:
For example:
1: The 1st early raids of the Normans in south Italy..
2: Civil wars of the Lombards
3: Peace pacts or wars against Pore etc...
4: Pope's agreements with Lombards or Franks or Byzantines
5: Names of Lombards...

Can you do it?

[firekiller]

Here is some info hope you can use it (big post but very good hope you read it all ) (Change name of Muslim Sultanate of Sicily in Saracen Aghladib dynasty )


In the Frankish Kingdom of Italy, the dukes of Benevento call themselves princes of the Lombards. Sometimes they are loyal to the Franks, sometimes to Byzantium.

774-961 A.D. The Carolingian period (named for Pepin's father Charles Martel). Imperial authority disintegrates; feudalism reaches its fullest development in Italy: local lords are masters of their own territories.
Normans from France gradually gain power in southern Italy; they take part in local quarrels between Lombard princes and the people of Puglia and the Byzantine governors. Expeditions sent against the Normans by the Holy Roman emperors (the first of whom was Charlemagne) are defeated.

555 A.D. The Byzantine Emperor Justinian I (r. 527-565) has Italy reconquered for the Eastern Roman Empire (i.e. Byzantium) by defeating the Ostrogoths, who have ruled Italy since 493 AD.

568 A.D. The Lombard invasion of Italy begins. The Lombards will divide the lands they conquer into duchies, and the Lombard dukes of Benevento (which includes the area of Molise) will be almost independent rulers.

8th10thCenturies A.D. The Frankish King Pepin "the Short" and later his son Charlemagne (in 774) invade Italy and make the Lombard Kingdom of Italy the Frankish Kingdom of Italy. The popes have called on the Franks to save Rome from the Lombards; the Lombards (who are not Roman Catholic) do not recognize the secular power of the papacy. Under Frankish rule, the Franks and Lombards follow their own laws; the Italians continue to use Roman law.

The Franks are a Germanic people living to the west of the Rhine River. Since the conversion of their King Clovis I in 496, they have been Roman Catholics, professing the Athanasian Creed. Charlemagne will conquer the Germanic lands to the east of the Rhine and create the Holy Roman Empire (of which the pope will crown Charlemagne the first emperor), making northern Europe an heir to Roman civilization, a union of the western and eastern Rhine that will formally last until 843.

However, following the death of Charlemagne in 814 imperial authority will begin to disintegrate: feudalism will reach its fullest development: local lords will become masters of their own territories. The dukes of Benevento will call themselves princes of the Lombards and sometimes be loyal to the Franks, sometimes to Byzantium. Normans from France will gradually gain power in southern Italy; they will take part in local quarrels between Lombard princes and the people of Puglia and the Byzantine governors. Expeditions sent against the Normans by the Holy Roman emperors will be defeated.

947 A.D. Magyar raids through the Principality of Benevento into Puglia. In 969 Benevento is made the see of an archbishop.


The Normans

10th11thCenturiesA.D. The Norman Conquest of southern Italy begins. The first adventurers from the coast of Normandy, France, hire themselves out to the rival rulers of Benevento, Salerno, Naples, and Capua. As a reward they are given the city of Aversa. But as their numbers increase, the Normans band together to fight on their own.

1053-1059A.D. By this time Robert Guiscard (i.e. "the Wise", or, "Wily") has established a Norman kingdom in southern Italy. He conquers Calabria (the toe of the Italian peninsula), Benevento (1054 A.D.), and allies himself with Pope Nicholas II (r. 1059-1061), whom he protects from being dominated by Germanic rulers, and receives papal sanction to rule Calabria, Puglia (the heel of the Italian peninsula), and the island of Sicily. Robert sends his younger brother Roger to conquer Sicily, and himself sets out to conquer Puglia from the Byzantines.

The Normans have many classical texts translated from the Greek and Arabic into Latin. Together with the Greek texts that are collected in Byzantium and rediscovered in the libraries of the monasteries of Europe, these works will bring about a revolution both in Roman Catholic theology and in secular learning.

1071A.D. Robert Guiscard captures Bari. With Puglia conquered, and with it Byzantium's rule in southern Italy ended, Robert next sets out to conquer Constantinople. But he is called back by Pope Gregory VII (r. 1073-1085) to defend the papacy against the Holy Roman Emperor Henry IV.




Map Source: the above map is based on a map titled "Norman Conquest of South Italy" in the book The Middle Ages: 395-1500 by Joseph Strayer and Dana Munro, page 210.

1084A.D. Robert Guiscard captures the city of Rome from Henry IV's army. But when the people of Rome revolt against Robert's army, Robert sacks and burns the city.

1060-1091A.D. Roger Guiscard's conquest of the island of Sicily from the Saracens. The Moslems of Sicily and southern Italy are Berbers from North Africa (the race of St. Augustine) and Spanish Moslems, a diverse people but they are all called Saracens ("People from the East") by the Italians.

1085-1101A.D. With the death of his brother Robert Guiscard, Roger becomes the ruler of Norman Italy or the "Two Sicilies" as it is called -- i.e. of the island of Sicily and the southern half of the Italian peninsula.

1101-1154A.D. During the reign of Roger II, a nephew of Robert Guiscard, Naples and Capua are added to the Norman Kingdom. Abruzzo is captured from the Holy Roman Emperors, and North Africa from Tripoli to Tunis is taken from the Saracens.

1130A.D. Roger II changes his title from Count to King. The capital city of his "Kingdom of the Two Sicilies" is Palermo.

1194A.D. Roger II's heirs, who have already lost the Norman's North African possessions, end Norman rule in southern Italy by surrendering the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies to the Holy Roman (i.e. German) Emperor Henry VI under the pretext that Henry has married a woman from the Norman court.

Some info over how/wenn they went to italy

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

While it has received more attention recently, the Norman insertion into Italy and Sicily is often neglected even in basic texts concerning Western Civilization. Yet this "other" Norman invasion had profound affect on the political and cultural development of the Mediterranean. Gordon S. Brown follows the rise of the Normans through the exploits of the eight sons of Tancred of Hauteville from their arrival until the death of the most famous one, Robert Guiscard.

The Normans arrival in southern Italy was not an invasion as much as a slow accumulation of young mercenary knights looking for opportunities denied them at home. Initially hired by the Lombards to help in their revolt against the Byzantines in 1017, they soon sold their services to either side. More importantly, they began to seize towns and carve out fiefs for themselves. Often too small in number to directly assault well-defended towns, the Normans proceeded to raid and raze the outlining areas and farms, slow stripping the target of both food and commerce until it capitulated. They even went as far as to start fires and then demand payment before allowing them to be put out. The Normans systematically used intimidation and terror to rapidly gain land in Apulia and the area north of Naples. These tactics would allow them to set themselves up as barons in the region in less than seventy years.

Yet while the Normans often acted as little more than robber-barons pursuing their own interests, they could show remarkable cohesion and foresight when required. Even when squabbling among themselves, they could rapidly drop their quarrels to confront a perceived threat. This ability to subsume internal differences for the greater good of the group was one of the primary reasons for their success. It also helped that their adversaries, be they the pope, Muslims or Byzantines, continually underestimated the capabilities and tenacity of the Normans. Never superior in numbers, the Normans used their heavy cavalry in a remarkably coherent manner to outmaneuver their opponents and seize fleeting opportunities. When Pope Leo IX came south with an army in 1053 to deal with the Norman predations of church property, he soon found himself their virtual prisoner following the crushing defeat at Civitate. Yet in a paradox typical of the Normans, they showed the Pope extreme respect and negotiated a settlement with him that confirmed their holdings. The Normans under Richard of Capua would continue to insert themselves into papal politics as when they invaded Rome and placed Nicolas II on the throne of St. Peter in 1059.

While the Normans were actually divided into two groups, the author focuses on the Hautevilles and particularly Robert Guiscard, who arrived in Italy in 1047. Initially only in control of malaria ridden lands in Calabria, Robert soon expands his holdings and after helping install Nicolas II he was invested with Apulia, Calabria and Sicily as a reward. The fact that Sicily was held by the Muslims and portions of Apulia were still under Byzantine control seems to have mattered little to Robert or his younger brother Roger. Typical of the Norman tactics, they launched a reconnaissance in force into Sicily. They returned in 1061 to capture Messina using diversions and sheer audacity. It would not be until 1086 though until Roger captured Syracuse and sealed the fate of Sicily.

While in the early years the Normans had been focused on territorial expansion and the accumulation of wealth, as their holdings increased they were inevitably forced to deal with the issues of governance. The author provides an interesting contrast between how Roger developed the Sicilian government compared to the system that evolved in southern Italy under Robert. Because other Norman families had established significant fiefs in Apulia, Robert was continually confronted with revolts from his vassals who perceived the Hautevilles as having overstepped their authority. Yet despite continual turmoil in his lands, he persisted in trying to expand his holdings into to Illyria right up to his death in 1085.
In contrast, Roger was extremely careful in assigning land in Sicily and held much it for himself, thus preventing any family from developing a power base. He also showed remarkable foresight in his government organization by retaining many of the administrative techniques that had evolved there from the Byzantine and Muslim traditions. Holding court in Sicily and Calabria, Roger developed a centralized government that saw the rise of trade and culture to new heights in his territory. His death in 1101 marked the closing chapter in the heady days of conquest and expansion that had begun just over eighty years before.

Gordon Brown has produced an excellent overview of this turbulent period in medieval history. While the author claims that he has produced "no remarkable research breakthroughs" (2), nevertheless the work is an interesting read even for those well versed in this history. The author’s background as a retired diplomat and ambassador clearly comes through in his analysis of Norman behavior and he consequently offers some interesting insights. His use of the sources is thoughtful and he often uses those favorable to the Normans to highlight their less desirable traits, while using their detractors to show why they were both feared and respected. The bibliography is not extensive, but it does contain the important classic and modern works for those desiring further reading of both primary and secondary sources. The book also contains a useful chronology and genealogy. It is unfortunate the book was not well served by its editors. There are typographical errors scattered throughout (35, 71, 151, 152, and 175 for example) and in this reviewer’s copy the printing was faint on several pages (51, 82-83).
However, these problems can be overlooked. While the work may not provide anything particularly new for those familiar with this period of history, it is an excellent introduction to this portion of Norman and Italian history. It would also be a useful textbook for an undergraduate course. Most of all, this well-written work is an interesting read for anyone who desires an example of what can be accomplished through sheer tenacity, perseverance, cunning and audacity.

Time line + wars in southern italy and revolt of normans vs byz

In 947 the Hungarians attacked Larino. In their rampage they entered the church of SS Madre di Dio and began to steal relics and sacred treasures. D.Pasquale Ricci in his Fogli Abbandonati (Abandoned Pages) recounts this story: In the midst of this sacrilege when the Hungarian soldiers, carrying away treasures, tried to leave the church it was as though they were faced by an impenetrable wall. A strong a mysterious voice range out: "Leave those things which belong to Pardo and the doors will be opened". The Hungarians were terrified. The immediately dropped all that they had stolen and suddenly the church was suffused with light and the soldiers fled in disorder.


962. Otto I, king of Germany, invades Italy and is crowned Emperor in Rome.


982. Otto II is defeated by the Arabs when he attempts to conquer southern Italy.


In 983 Ottone II fights against the Greeks (the Byzantines) and the Saracen pirates.

In 1017 Norman mercenaries participate in a revolt against the Byzantines.


In 1045 Tesselgardo is the Count of Larino. At roughly the same time the Normans are in Larino. They build a castle at the site of what is now the Palazzo Ducale. (The first notice we have of the castle is in the writing of Pope Innocent III, who held the papal throne from 1198 to 1216). Apparently many bandits were held in the fortress.


In 1053 the Count Ugo forms a base in Molise which last for two centuries.

In 1059 Pope Nicholas II invested the Norman adventurer, Robert Guiscard, with all conquests in Apulgia, Calabria, and Sicily.

In 1066 the Normans, under William the Conqueror, attack Great Britain and subject the Saxon inhabitants to their rule. It sometimes surprises travellers from the United Kingdom that the Normans were also in Italy. They came here to fight in the Crusades. Normally they left from the Gargano (the spur on the east coast of Italy) for the Holy Land. They were the younger sons on large families and they were seeking their fortune. Rival factions in Italy invited them to fight as mercenaries. As soon as they realized that they could win kingdoms by mere force of arms they began to dominate the entire south of the country right into Sicily. One family, named Hauteville in French (high town) went through a name transformation (to Altavilla) and established a dynasty.

1071. Bari, the last Byzantine stronghold in Apulia, falls to the Normans.

Buttress of old castle once topped by square turrets

1072. The Norman lords of southern Italy capture Palermo in Sicily






Good link(s) whit mush info:

http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgur...3D100%26um%3D1

http://books.google.nl/books?id=yB72...num=2#PPA45,M1

Very very detailed year bye year from southern italy http://www.researchitaly.us/historyo...1toad1130.html (every year has multibel things)
Also complete faction families discribed there like:

872 Ahmad ibn Ya'qub ibn Modha ibn Sawada ibn Sufian ibn Salim becomes Saracen Aghlabid governor of Sicily. He is soon replaced by Husayn ibn Ribbah.
873 Abu 'Abbas 'Abdallah ibn Muhammad ibn 'Abdallah ibn al-Aghlab becomes Saracen Aghlabid governor of Sicily. He is soon replaced by Abu Malik Ahmad ibn 'Umar ibn 'Abdallah ibn Ibrahim I ibn al-Aghlab.
876 Dja'far ibn Muhammad ibn Khafaja becomes Saracen Aghlabid governor of Sicily
ect
So you can easaly take it over
Also you can do that whit the names of all factions who had people in southern italia

______________________
1 ) Faction suggestion The HRE cause they tryed to get southern italia under their control (for version 1 or version 2 )

982. Otto II is defeated by the Arabs when he attempts to conquer southern Italy.

2 )Venice
In 983 Ottone II fights against the Greeks (the Byzantines) and the Saracen pirates

Backgroundinfo

Under the latter we meet for the first time with the Grand Council, the assent of which was necessary to all laws; besides the laity, it also included the bishops of the Venetian States. The new Government prohibited the sale to Saracens of slaves and of any merchandise which could be used in war against Christians. But in 976 the doge's palace was set on fire, and he himself killed as he attempted to escape. His partisans, supported by the Emperor Otto II, drove out (978) his successor, Pietro Orseolo I, who became a disciple of St. Romuald. Under Memmo, the next doge, certain rebels attempted to place Venice under the sway of Otto II, but the republic defended itself, and in 983 peace was restored. Memmo was obliged to become a monk (992). Under Pietro Orseolo II (992-1009) the prestige of the republic revived. The Latin cities of the Istrian and Dalmatian coasts, incessantly menaced by the Slays, voluntarily acknowledged the dominion of Venice, and from that time the doge, with the consent of the Emperor of Constantinople, was styled Duke of Dalmatia. He gained a splendid victory over the Saracens at Baru (1003). His son Ottone (1009-26) was suspected of wishing to bring the state under Western imperial domination, and died a prisoner at Constantinople. He was succeeded by the weak Pietro Barvolano (1030), under whom Peter, King of Hungary, son of the Doge Ottone, tried to get possession of Dalmatia. After grievous internal conflicts, Flavanico became doge in 1033 and enacted wise laws against hereditary doge-ship. Domenico Contareno (1043-71) was fortunate in the defense of Dalmatia against the Hungarians. At this time the office of procurator of St. Mark was instituted, instead of that of state treasurer, making a clear separation between the personal patrimony of the doge and the state revenues. Domenioo Silvio married a daughter of the Emperor Constantine Ducas, and, at the request of Alexius Comnenus, made war at sea against the Normans; he was fortunate at first, but was defeated at Corfu in 1084, with the loss of nine large ships and 13,000 men, which led to his deposition. Vitale Faledro (1084-96) retrieved the loss with the victory of Botrinto. Alexius Comnenus, by the famous Golden Bull (1084), granted the Venetians freedom from tributes and imposts, full liberty of commerce, exemption from Greek jurisdiction, an appropriation for the Church of St. Mark, and an income for the doge, with the title of Protosebastos. From this time Venice is an independent state.

3) Fatimids (invading faction) Would be nice another muslim faction + balance and makes things in the southern area mush more fun

909 Saracen Aghladib dynasty in North Africa is overthrown bye the fatimids
910 Sicily comes under the rule of the Saracen Fatimid dynasty

Mush more faction can be putted in but these would be very nice