The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

[Violator]

Bulgarian preview in a few hours

Great mate!!+rep!!

[gogo t]

By the time of the first Bulgarian Empire Bulgaria was one of the 3 major powers in Europe and the reason of being so powerful is the ARMY






Battle banners



There is two types of army- civil and professional

The local nobles support the professional army so it’s always ready for battle.

Tzar Guards

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Boiladi -- Bulgar title. The highest Bulgarian aristocracy. It’s Bulgar word and the Boiladi are heirs of old bulgar noble families. They are the closest emperor’s assistants

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Boyari - It’s the slavianic word for Boiladi. They are high nobles, but not as high as the the Boiladi





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Bagaini – Bulgar title. Lower rank nobles



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Chigoti- Bulgar title. Means Swordsmen. They are Tzar’s guards on foot





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Bagaturi- Bulgar title. In means “ Hero ” the best Bulgarian warriors




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Boiladi’s cavalry – People from some Boilada’s party.






Now the Civil army

Selqni- Peasants


Shtitonostzi - Lavy Javelinmen



Mechonostzi - Swordsmen



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Streltzi- Bowmen



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Kopienostzi- Spearmen



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Sekironostzi



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Veterani Streltzi- Veteran bowmen



Leka kavaleria - light cavalry







*Sorry some of the horse models are fu*ked up... they still havent been made

[AnthoniusII]

An exelent preview!!!
I forgot to tell you to replece "mounts" folder with Argent User's real horses one.!
I WILL NOTIFY THE MODERATORS TO ANNOUNCE THE PREVIEW!

[Hrobatos]

units are awesome!!!faction simbols and banners as well!!
you know croatian names for regular units are very similar

[Silesian_Noble]

Quite nice but... I'm shocked with that army heaviness. About 2/3 or even more units got mail protecion... Do you know how much mail protection cost and was rare in such early period (the popularization of mail on the greater scale happened about XIV-XVc)? It's impossible that so many warriors could afford such great and expensive protection. Taking into consideration that Bulgaria had great potential in that period I would still assume that about 20% at best could afford mail.

[Hrobatos]

i disagree, chainmail was used a lot among some units, now how much such units were in an army is completly another question
perhaps making banners the way flags were made in Empire (dirty looking) would be better, back then they didnt used silk for flags and banners

[Roboute Guilliman]

great stuff, the bulgarians are pretty high quality, and the byzantines from the previous screens seem also excellent.

I wonder why this isnt getting its own sub forum!

[Hrobatos]

i wonder the same

[Agis Tournas]

Be patient, guys...

[alien_t]

Great preview mate.

[Konstantinos XI Palaiologos]

GREAT preview...

[gogo t]

Quite nice but... I'm shocked with that army heaviness. About 2/3 or even more units got mail protecion... Do you know how much mail protection cost and was rare in such early period (the popularization of mail on the greater scale happened about XIV-XVc)? It's impossible that so many warriors could afford such great and expensive protection. Taking into consideration that Bulgaria had great potential in that period I would still assume that about 20% at best could afford mail.

Read more about Bulgarian army
Khan Krum f.e. in 813-814 was prepering for capturing Konstantinople.... the byzantine sources tells that he had 30 000 man in "iron" !!!! Krum spent the winter preparing for a major attack on Constantinople, where rumor reported the assembling of an extensive siege park to be transported on 5,000 carts. However, before he set out, he died on April 13, 814, and was succeeded by his son Omurtag.



Tramslation:
Bagatur-bagain has 55 chainmail and 45 helmets.
* * *

Превод:
Setit-bagain has chainmail -83 and 70 helmets.
* * *


Превод:
+Uk Bagain \Uk means "from the last region near the borders" \ has 26 cahnmail, ichurgu bagain 12 chainmail, зиткомирът 17, Uk Bagain \another\ -22 chainmails.
* * *.


So what's the problem for the arostokrasy to upkeep their partys ? And this is the lower aristockracy


And yes it's impossible all the army to always have mails and so on, but it's just a game and it's made to look good

[AnthoniusII]

The complete Bulgarian faction's preview is now in the 1st post of the mod with the addition of NikeBG's history description text!
See more THERE!

[absinthia]

one must also consider the different metals, such as steel and iron. iron less expensive, while also less durable, not all maile is made of steel...
while metals being rather expensive it would be re-used and a maile shirt is very easy to mend and keep intact.
so i do not find it that strange that commoners is equipped with an armor type that had been around for about 1000 years.

what i do find strange is the mailed archers, with shield on back, without any other obvious secondary weapon than a knife.

[gogo t]

secondary- small axes

[NikeBG]

Also consider that the unit number doesn't necessarily represent army percentage. That's mostly a part of game mechanics - cost, upkeep, recruitment time, recruitment availability etc. And, of course, another source of metal armour for the militia (besides a rich bolyar, which at that time were many) is one of the most usual ones - war trophies.

[Silesian_Noble]

the byzantine sources tells that he had 30 000 man in "iron" !!!!

NONE of serious historians believe in everything what chronicles says. According to some German chronicles Poles had milion soldiers in the battle of Grunwald... And don't say that Byzantine chronicles were super reliable - I know that their numbers about Rus invaders are widely criticised by historians as highly exagereted.
How could Bulgaria equip 30.000men with mail? Bulgaria was not known for being blacksmith centre, and probably most of the weaponry imported from Byzantium (which was known as a great blacksmith centre). Then the mail itself - especialy in this timeframe was not popular on that area at all. What was popular is the lamelar protection, so typical for both Byzantine culture and the nomads one - wasn't Bulgaria nomadic tribe under Byzantine culture influense? And finally, if mail was so popular in Bulgarian army, how many mail armour have been found in Bulgaria?

Also consider that the unit number doesn't necessarily represent army percentage.

Yes, but in the roster above even peasantry units got mail. I think this is some kind of misunderstanding. I think it was about XVc that mail was produced in large number and its prices dropped so it became more available for peasants, but still only few of them could afford it.
You don't need to believe me. Simply ask any profesional historian that specialise in medieval weaponry and you will be shocked by his critic. I know it because I used to think like you - all the soldiers in iron, but then I read a lot of books, discussed it in the historical forum with profesional historians and now I know this is far, very far from the truth.

[Hrobatos]

i like units, very nice

[AnthoniusII]

Every consirn obout the status and equipment of armies is justified but:
We must not forget:
1: Bulgarians had the knowlege to make a vareity of armors.
2: They found "roman" armouries that made such armors for centuries in the cities they settled.
3: They had armor trade (among othe trade) with both "steppe" people and Romans.

The unit roster will give this faction an disadvandage. A player will have to wait until he will produse chain mail to re-equip his troops while the same time their oponets will have another upgrade of their troops and gain an advandage!
The "king's men and the royal forces of each faction will be available from the start but they will have a very slow rate of reqruitment and a huge cost and upkeep.Even large kingdoms like Bulgaria and Roman Empire will be not be able to afford many units of this kind!

As Absinthia mentioned,we have diferent stat values between iron and steel chain mail. To make the equipment issue as realistic as possible:.

The diferences of west and east europe were huge in the armor issue.
For centuries people in central and west europe beleived that eastern europeans were equipted like peasants.
That was not true. The wealth of eastern europe allowed even smaller kingdoms to have access to medium and heavy armors and better weapons.
An example:
When we read the roman description of the Battle of Sirmium between Romans and Hungarians the writers mention that while the batlle was equal and swords had no affect on armors of both side the solution came from the Roman maces that their heavy cavalry was equipted with.
Conclution:If the Hungarian knights had maces in that era they would use them to win the battle but it seams that they were equipted only with lances and swords.

By this example i want to nottice that eastern kingdoms had many advandages over central/westrern ones.
Take a look the evolution of Norman knights after they invasion in Itally!
They adopted the muslim and roman scale/lamellar cuirasses over their traditional chain mails and they adopted the famous lances of theirs and abandoned their spear/javelins they used since then!!!

[NikeBG]

Bulgaria was not known for being blacksmith centre,

By whom? Here's just one quote from Valeri Iotov's archaeological research "The armament and weaponry of the Bulgarian Middle Ages (VII-XI c.)":
"In most cases it's difficult to guess how each specimen of arms or military gear, either fortuitously found or unearthed, landed in the specific place. It could have been manufactured in a local crafstman shop, or brought during an assault of a foreign army, or traded from distant locations. It is undeniable, however, that in almost every medieval settlement, fortress, city or a capital there are traces of iron working. As local manufacturing can be considered all those arms and accoutrements, discovered in group finds (18 in this study) and concealed by the manufacturer or owner during the Early Bulgarian Middle Ages."

and probably most of the weaponry imported from Byzantium (which was known as a great blacksmith centre).

Archaeologists define several groups. Again Valeri Iotov:
"So the written and archaeological sources are tracing the main ways for acquiring of weapons and equipment during the Early Bulgarian Middle Ages: local manufacturing, trade, spoil, gift. The basic directions of traditions and influences on the style of the armaments are: from East - tribes and ethnic groups like Protobulgarians, Magyars, Varyangians, Pechenegs; from South - Byzantine, though she itself is rather influenced by nomadic weaponry and harness; from West - Avars, and from the early 10th century - Magyars. The adoption of the innovations was not only a fashion, but also a natural acceptance of every kind of armament, granting success in battle."

Then the mail itself - especialy in this timeframe was not popular on that area at all... And finally, if mail was so popular in Bulgarian army, how many mail armour have been found in Bulgaria?

Iotov, when speaking about the Bulgar inventory scripts: "They mention huge quantities (couples of hundreds) of chain-mails, plate (segment) armors* and helmets, stored for low-rank commanders". For the low-rank commanders - see the last paragraph.
*By "plate (segment) armors" the author later on explains that "many authors differentiate sheet-iron armors, scale armors, plate armors, breastplate armors, etc. However, considering the condition of the unearthed plates, it's not always possible to define such characteristics." I.e. considering the time period his study is about, we can agree they would mostly be scale and lamellar armors (since there were no full-plates, breastplates etc), made of metal or horns/bones by different techniques (which the author also explains).

What was popular is the lamelar protection, so typical for both Byzantine culture and the nomads one - wasn't Bulgaria nomadic tribe under Byzantine culture influense?

It was probably popular, yes, and I agree that the mail in some units can be replaced with lamellar. F.e. this inventory script gives nearly equal ammounts:
"Zitko ichirgu boil (has)
mails 455, helms -
540, lamellar
armors 427, helms 854,
the zhupan and his men
(?) has: lamellar
armors 30, helms 40,
chainmails 1, helm 1."

Yes, but in the roster above even peasantry units got mail.

Yes, let's see which ones:
- upgrades to swordsmen, spearmen, bowmen, light cavalry (though that actually makes them medium cavalry)
- veteran bowmen
And, as I said, there are a number of reasons to justify this.

I think this is some kind of misunderstanding. I think it was about XVc that mail was produced in large number and its prices dropped so it became more available for peasants, but still only few of them could afford it.

And there is your misunderstanding - you believe that the peasants had to afford it. While at that time Bulgaria was actually a rich and highly *centralised* state, where even the lowest military commanders had to keep a certain ammount of armours (mail, scale, in some cases horse barding) for their garrison. Which consisted of militias (as opposed to the high noble's regular guards, which can be seen in the example of the zhupan from the inscription above). Furthermore, as I previously said, veteran militias (as long as they survived, of course) would have brought trophy armament from the dead enemies, for which there are pretty many sources talking about many such cases. True, in the cases when that armament was from previous campaigns, it is possible that it might have been less preserved (though ill-keeping of weapons, armament and battle-horses was punishable by death among the Bulgars), but it would've still been used, if the need arises.


Conclusion: My main correction would be to replace some of the chainmails, especially for the higher troops, with scale/lamellars. Perhaps have the upgraded militia units have mixed armament - some having clothes, others having armours, if it's possible.