Thread: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

  1. #8181
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wareg View Post
    Any evidence to support this?
    Padded armors and leather ones were known since antiquity. Ificratis warrior is an example.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  2. #8182

    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wareg View Post
    Any evidence to support this?
    Before the gambeson there was the Linothorax :



    Then the roman subarmalis :





    I'm shure there were other types of quilted armour, but these were the most popular types of quilted armour before the gambeson.
    Last edited by NapoleonMaster; February 13, 2019 at 03:33 PM.

  3. #8183

    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Ok, I've misunderstood you, I mean that there is no evidence of qulited armours in TGC timeframe in West/Central/North Europa (although Arabs and Bizantines used It). I refer to screenshots of Frankish/German crossbowmen beacouse this model have quilted armours (which became common in this region in 13th century) and crossbows with stirrups (also late 12th century innovation)

  4. #8184
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    I believe it is on the safe side to assume that padded/quilted protection remained in continuous use after it's introduction in the Roman army, as the technology for it did not vanish with the destruction of Rome and neither did the need for it.

  5. #8185
    Hrobatos's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Technology did not vanish but cotton became certainly scarce with Arab expansion into Mediteranenan. They essentialy broke old conections and brought the end to "Roman world " and broke it into Arab, Byzantine and Latin parts.
    Especialy in northern Europe would cotton be scarce, and it was vital for gambesons.

    Thus gambesons are used again atleast in 10th and 11th century in the West but became widespread in 13th. There are several factora here. There was major population growth in 13th century likely due to climate becoming warmer again and manny new towns were found in this time frame, urbanization started again which in turn resulted in greater number of urban organised and trained militias. Those used gambesons as good and afordable form of body protection. Also Crusades opened trade paths to the East and Italian republics of Genoa. Venice and Pisa have taken controll of the sea routes from Arabs. All of these were in my oppinion inporta t factors to major increase of usage of gambesons in 13th century as oposed to earlier period.

    Infact I would argue that whole Dark ages as major decline of civilization in Europe was caused by Arabs trough their domination of the sea routes. Slavic and Bulgarian migration to the Balkans hasnt helped either.
    Last edited by Hrobatos; February 18, 2019 at 04:26 PM.

  6. #8186

    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Most European gambesons were made from wool. Vikings in particular wore padded wool armor quite often.

  7. #8187
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    I was under the impression that linen was the material of preference for gambesons and it was used in at least 17 layers quilted together in order to achieve stopping power of some adequacy.

    Also, the Dark Ages got their name from the scarcity of script remnants from that time.
    The "scarcity" begun with the collapse of Roman rule in the west of Europe at the hands of illiterate (at the time) Germanic tribes.
    The time gap between the sack of Rome by the Visigoths (410 CE) and the first Islamic expansions (620 CE) does not justify the claim that Islam caused the European Dark Ages.

    Furthermore, it is noted among modern Greek scholars that a great deal of ancient Greek literature (philosophy, mathematics, astronomy, tragedy and comedy) had been rejected for centuries by the Christian scholars of the Eastern Roman Empire as "pagan" and was only preserved thanks to the diligence of scholars residing in the Caliphate.

    I wouldn't consider the attitudes of ISIS and the Wahhabis in our time as representatives of Arab/Muslim attitudes on culture and literacy in medieval times.

  8. #8188
    Antonius's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Quote Originally Posted by paleologos View Post
    I was under the impression that linen was the material of preference for gambesons and it was used in at least 17 layers quilted together in order to achieve stopping power of some adequacy.

    Also, the Dark Ages got their name from the scarcity of script remnants from that time.
    The "scarcity" begun with the collapse of Roman rule in the west of Europe at the hands of illiterate (at the time) Germanic tribes.
    The time gap between the sack of Rome by the Visigoths (410 CE) and the first Islamic expansions (620 CE) does not justify the claim that Islam caused the European Dark Ages.

    Furthermore, it is noted among modern Greek scholars that a great deal of ancient Greek literature (philosophy, mathematics, astronomy, tragedy and comedy) had been rejected for centuries by the Christian scholars of the Eastern Roman Empire as "pagan" and was only preserved thanks to the diligence of scholars residing in the Caliphate.

    I wouldn't consider the attitudes of ISIS and the Wahhabis in our time as representatives of Arab/Muslim attitudes on culture and literacy in medieval times.
    This
    It is always easier to fight for one’s principles than to live up to them.
    ~Alfred Adler

  9. #8189

    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    btw, I heard from Paleologos that there will be some goodies in store for us at the end of this month.

    Is this still planned or the release will be delayed?

  10. #8190
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Delayed. Depresion is a sickness you can not see it comming when it strikes again and again. IT also creates physical (body) sicknesses too that strike like lightning.
    Please for the delay blame me and no one else.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  11. #8191
    Wallachian's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Bro please dont be sorry! Take time for yourself, remember health comes first!

  12. #8192
    Dead*Man*Wilson's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    AnthoniusII,The health and well-being of our extraordinary community members is of the utmost importance. I'm sure that I speak for all of us when I say that with support you and are with you in spirit. I hope your situation improves!

  13. #8193

    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    My daugher battles depression. It is a terrible disease. You can win this battle Anthonius!

  14. #8194
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Quote Originally Posted by perris0707 View Post
    My daugher battles depression. It is a terrible disease. You can win this battle Anthonius!
    Despite these post maybe off topic, we are first people here in TWC. My friend the strugle against Depresion is long and painfull espesialy for those that SHARE the burden.
    I almost drive m mother crazy thanks to my condition , so please TAKE CARE your daughter 1st , when she will fill better you will be able to enjoy life too. I hope this mod will offer some time off from our every day strugles and keep our minds away from that fear. I hope WE ALL BE WELL inorder to enjoy not this mod...but our lives God so generusly gave us to live. Thank YOU ALL for your suport and please forgive me that I bother you with my own problems. But since day one in TWC i considered all its members FRIENDS of mine and that is why i dared to share this info. For your petience I will try my best not to let you down. That is a promise.
    YOUR FRIEND
    Anthony.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  15. #8195

    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Thanks man. My prayers are with you as you fight your battle. The mod is only a game after all and your health is what is most important. Don't feel any pressure (or guilt) to forsake your health! Fight the good fight my friend!

  16. #8196
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Servus Veneticus

    You can see the Roman tunics with Lombard legs and head cover.
    Unforthunatly the wonderfull heads made by Razor have an issue with their UV maps when the model converted to .mesh.
    Its a pity because those heads are highly detailed.
    The unit is the basic civilian militia of Venice. Acting more as law enforcement rather than a battle line unit.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  17. #8197

    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    I think the head looks really good! The lion of Venice looks good too.

  18. #8198
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Quote Originally Posted by perris0707 View Post
    I think the head looks really good! The lion of Venice looks good too.
    Yea the head is highly detailed but when the milkshape model converted to .mesh inorder to have it in game the UV maps of the side of the head and it rear change position . I sent a message to Razor that is the creator of these wonderfull heads to find a solution because those models with diferent textures will be used for Arabs, Berbers etc that wont have anything to hide their heads exept the faces like the italian militias. Hoods cover that issue but not every model will have such ones.
    Look what i face as problem:
    Look how wonderfull the head looks in milkshape:


    No observe what happens in game:


    Maybe Razor that has made Roman heads with the same technic in the past without that bug will be able to give a solution.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  19. #8199

    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    btw, that white line on the grass doesn't look right tbh.

  20. #8200
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

    Quote Originally Posted by NapoleonMaster View Post
    btw, that white line on the grass doesn't look right tbh.
    That white line is the limit of units deployment in custom battles before the battle begins.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


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