The Great Conflicts main discussion thread. Please post here!

[Jale82]

Romanos gave command to a Doukas family member (which was a rival to his), I don't remember which one
and don't want to google it right now(), his task was to engage Turks in order to encircle them
but he just went away with the army and defeat was eminent. Romanos was captured (Varangian guard
fought to the last men) and was released. When he returned to Constantinople he was blinded and sent
to Princes islands where he died soon after.
Alp Arslan had perfect excuse to strike then and took almost complete Asia Minor. (...)

Niketas has most praise for emperor John Komnenos. For him he was the best of those three and
his accidental death in 1143. was a irrecoverable tragedy for state.
He planned conquest of Antioch when he died and with that move a perfect
encirclement of Turks would be complete. A truly great strategist he was and
great military commander.
Manuel on the other hand was a megalomaniac and his only success was restoration
of power in Balkan. Everything else ended in failure. Southern Italy, Egypt and worst of all
was Myriokefalon in 1176. Actually that campaign could and would have been succesfull
if only he had a little of his father's strategic mind. But he after decades of postponing
what his father made perfect for him decided to took a vast army and strike with pure force
without taking any security measures and fell into classic ambush.
That was a last chance to revive maybe the most important theme of Anatolia in past.

When we talk about some history TV show I think that period from 1143. to 1204. would be perfect.
So much envy, betrayal, jealousy, battles on ground and sea, politics, great scenography...
And nothing doesn't need to be fictious. Just pure facts.

[perris0707]

Agreed. Better that Game of Thrones. And true to boot!

Anthonius. I like the sound of the new campaigns you are thinking of adding.

[antiochos_hierax]

I have been lurking this mod for a while and I’ve been very impressed with the ways things are shaping up (the units look great too).
I’ve had some ideas that could be used in your mod, although I’m not sure if all can be implemented due to the medieval 2 engine (some mechanics are similar to EB2 but still historically accurate).
Firstly, I think that it’d be a great opportunity to introduce aristocratic families in the mod (as traits). There were many great families (mostly in Asia Minor) that gained lots of wealth and influence in the period of your mod. Starting characters could start with traits such as: Phocas, Kourkouas, Skleros, Doukas, Melainos which then pass to their offspring (similar to how in EB2 there are Seleukides, Ptolemaios, Antigonides traits). Members adopted (benefactions etc.) could gain traits such as: “Affiliated with the Phocades” etc.
These traits would be important as the emperor could gain traits such as: “Distrusts the Phocades” or “Prefers the Doukai”, meaning that characters that possess the “Doukas” trait are likely to get promoted and receive increased authority and loyalty while those that have the “Phocas” trait are likely to become disloyal and rebel.
Another thing that would be interesting to see is how ethnicity plays a role in the mod. Many people believe that ethnicity didn’t play a role in Ρωμανία and that anyone could advance in society regardless of ethnicity, customs, religion etc. I disagree.
Firstly, there is evidence that being Roman was a matter of descent (eg Digenis Akritas) but not only of that. Descent was a factor, though it could be overcome by acculturation, which was not always accepted by the people. Language, descent, dress and customs all played a role in being accepted as a Roman.
We have Eustathios Boilas’ testimony, who said “I became an emigrant from the land which bore me [Cappadocia], and I went a distance of one and one-half weeks from my fatherland. I settled among alien nations with strange religion and tongue.” He’s talking about the Armenians in the most-eastern Roman lands. Kekaumenos also tells us that it is not “in the interests of Romanía” for the emperor to award high titles and offices to foreigners; from that policy, “Romanía has suffered much harm.” The highest titles and offices should go to Romans, and when that happens “Romanía flourishes.”
Further evidence to the separation between Romans and non-Romans (living in Roman lands) is the lack of evidence of Jacobite, Jewish, and Muslim subjects of the empire receiving court titles and offices and placed in command positions (unlike what happened with Armenian families, who learned Greek and assimilated to the point where they forgot their Armenian descent, such as Maria of Bizye).
Anthony Kaldellis tells us that even though Roman law was the same to all living under the Roman lands, non-Roman subjects (eg people who could not speak Greek or who didn’t wear the Roman dress) “were still viewed as ethnically different from the Romans on the basis of traits that were invisible to the law”, and that “. If an imperial subject was sufficiently foreign as to speak primarily Slavic or Armenian, he would likely have been called a Slav or Armenian in imperial service, not a Roman”.
What I suggest is introducing traits such as: Strongly Slavic ethnikos, Strongly Armenian ethnikos or of Slavic Descent and Of Armenian descent etc. Those that possess the “Strongly” trait are unlikely to advance much in society/ army and unlikely to be good with governing (reducing public order), to get rid of the trait the character would need to spend a number of turns in Constantinople where he will be educated in Greek, wear the Roman dress and given titles. He will then gain an “Assimilated Roman Omophylos”, trait along with a “Knowledge of Greek” trait (making him good enough to be a Strategos). Those with the “of Slavic descent” etc. will be better at being Strategoi/ doukai of those regions.
Other ethnicities could be: Melkite (Antioch), Romaniote Jew, etc.
I also suggest to introduce traits based on education: Characters could have traits such “Fluent in Romaiika (vulgar Greek)” making him a good general but unlikely to get promoted to high governing positions or become a good governor.
Others could have the trait of “Knowledge of Attic Greek” as the literary elite based its status on the ability to write formal, purist Greek. The best way for a character to get the Attic Greek trait could be: a) descent from one of the Aristocratic families, b) spending time in Constantinople at a young age (Similar to EB2 Spartan Agoge), c) have a “Greek education” building in the region.
I have some more ideas regarding the assimilation of recently captured regions but let me know what you think about this first as it is getting pretty long.
Good luck with the mod,
Cheers

[antiochos_hierax]

I got some time before work so I’ll write the rest now. This all concerns the Romans.
I believe that assimilation of recently captured provinces should be a difficult task, as the Romans weren’t able to fully assimilate the Bulgarians (due to the large size), Muslims in Syria (due to limited time) and there’s some evidence that some small Slavic groups in Greece weren’t fully assimilated for a long time (Ezerites and Milengo).
I believe that after the capture of a new settlement, the player should have 2 options: a) Turning the region into a quasi-autonomous state that pays tribute to the empire, example of this is Konstantinos VII, writing in the mid-tenth century, acknowledges that the Ezerites and Milengoi were allowed to form a quasi-autonomous region that paid tribute to the empire. (under a doux or archon). Further evidence is that an Arabic-speaking Melkite Christian, Kulayb, was promoted to the highest position available locally, governor of Antioch. This will be Similar to the Allied State in EB2, where you can recruit a “puppet” local ruler. The puppet ruler recruited will be Christian and will be given the trait “Doux”, taking the ruler to the nearest Roman thema and letting him stay there for 4 turns will making him likely (but not always) to gain the trait “Knowledge of Greek” and “Wears Roman dress”, increasing the likely Romanization of the region (but much slower than outright conquest) and giving a public order bonus to the region. The downside to this will be only AoR units and low-income as the region only pays tribute.
b) The second option is a bit more complex. If the player wants to have direct control over the region he will need to ensure some things first. Firstly, colonization or deportation should play a big role in the Romanization of recently conquered provinces.
For the colonization to take place 1 of 2 things can happen. 1) The themata could give colonization points depending on their size and distance from the conquered province (if the player conquers Tarsos, Tyana will need to have colonization points, but since it is a small province the points will be slowly accumulated) This is similar to EB2 military colonization but still historically accurate as evidence such as Nikephoros (802–811) ordering Christians from every province of the empire to sell their lands and relocate to the Balkan Sklabinias shows (this took a year to happen). The 2^nd colonization option (not sure if it can be implemented) would be after conquering a region the nearby themata face a population decline for 4 turns (1 year), which shows that they are now relocating to the recently captured province. The colonization will increase the Roman population of the region, increasing Christianity.
If military colonization is not possible (due to lack of colonization points or due to low population in nearby themata) the player should have the option to establish an Armenian garrison in the new region (increasing Christianity and public order). Historically, the empire established many smaller frontier themes that were manned largely by Armenian soldier-settlers (eg Lykandos).
Deportation should also be an option. There should be a deportation building (sounds ridiculous I know), which once built (it should take only 1 turn to show the instant deportation of Muslim and Non-Orthodox Christians) should reduce the settlement population by a lot (I’m talking gradually up to 50%) which will then give a population surplus to the nearby themata (relocation and intermarriage of foreign population to Romans eg. Khurramites). This will give a public order bonus along with increase in Orthodox Christianity to the recently conquered province (due to the Muslims, non-Orthodox Christians expelled) while giving a slight public order decline to the closest themata.
To take even further if the emperor has the “Allows intermarriages” trait the public order malus to the themata following deportation will be small while the public order malus will be more long lasting if the emperor does not approve of intermarriages.

[_Tartaros_]

I have been lurking this mod for a while and I’ve been very impressed with the ways things are shaping up (the units look great too).
I’ve had some ideas that could be used in your mod, although I’m not sure if all can be implemented due to the medieval 2 engine (some mechanics are similar to EB2 but still historically accurate).
Firstly, I think that it’d be a great opportunity to introduce aristocratic families in the mod (as traits). There were many great families (mostly in Asia Minor) that gained lots of wealth and influence in the period of your mod. Starting characters could start with traits such as: Phocas, Kourkouas, Skleros, Doukas, Melainos which then pass to their offspring (similar to how in EB2 there are Seleukides, Ptolemaios, Antigonides traits). Members adopted (benefactions etc.) could gain traits such as: “Affiliated with the Phocades” etc.
These traits would be important as the emperor could gain traits such as: “Distrusts the Phocades” or “Prefers the Doukai”, meaning that characters that possess the “Doukas” trait are likely to get promoted and receive increased authority and loyalty while those that have the “Phocas” trait are likely to become disloyal and rebel.
Another thing that would be interesting to see is how ethnicity plays a role in the mod. Many people believe that ethnicity didn’t play a role in Ρωμανία and that anyone could advance in society regardless of ethnicity, customs, religion etc. I disagree.
Firstly, there is evidence that being Roman was a matter of descent (eg Digenis Akritas) but not only of that. Descent was a factor, though it could be overcome by acculturation, which was not always accepted by the people. Language, descent, dress and customs all played a role in being accepted as a Roman.
We have Eustathios Boilas’ testimony, who said “I became an emigrant from the land which bore me [Cappadocia], and I went a distance of one and one-half weeks from my fatherland. I settled among alien nations with strange religion and tongue.” He’s talking about the Armenians in the most-eastern Roman lands. Kekaumenos also tells us that it is not “in the interests of Romanía” for the emperor to award high titles and offices to foreigners; from that policy, “Romanía has suffered much harm.” The highest titles and offices should go to Romans, and when that happens “Romanía flourishes.”
Further evidence to the separation between Romans and non-Romans (living in Roman lands) is the lack of evidence of Jacobite, Jewish, and Muslim subjects of the empire receiving court titles and offices and placed in command positions (unlike what happened with Armenian families, who learned Greek and assimilated to the point where they forgot their Armenian descent, such as Maria of Bizye).
Anthony Kaldellis tells us that even though Roman law was the same to all living under the Roman lands, non-Roman subjects (eg people who could not speak Greek or who didn’t wear the Roman dress) “were still viewed as ethnically different from the Romans on the basis of traits that were invisible to the law”, and that “. If an imperial subject was sufficiently foreign as to speak primarily Slavic or Armenian, he would likely have been called a Slav or Armenian in imperial service, not a Roman”.
What I suggest is introducing traits such as: Strongly Slavic ethnikos, Strongly Armenian ethnikos or of Slavic Descent and Of Armenian descent etc. Those that possess the “Strongly” trait are unlikely to advance much in society/ army and unlikely to be good with governing (reducing public order), to get rid of the trait the character would need to spend a number of turns in Constantinople where he will be educated in Greek, wear the Roman dress and given titles. He will then gain an “Assimilated Roman Omophylos”, trait along with a “Knowledge of Greek” trait (making him good enough to be a Strategos). Those with the “of Slavic descent” etc. will be better at being Strategoi/ doukai of those regions.
Other ethnicities could be: Melkite (Antioch), Romaniote Jew, etc.
I also suggest to introduce traits based on education: Characters could have traits such “Fluent in Romaiika (vulgar Greek)” making him a good general but unlikely to get promoted to high governing positions or become a good governor.
Others could have the trait of “Knowledge of Attic Greek” as the literary elite based its status on the ability to write formal, purist Greek. The best way for a character to get the Attic Greek trait could be: a) descent from one of the Aristocratic families, b) spending time in Constantinople at a young age (Similar to EB2 Spartan Agoge), c) have a “Greek education” building in the region.
I have some more ideas regarding the assimilation of recently captured regions but let me know what you think about this first as it is getting pretty long.
Good luck with the mod,
Cheers

Thank you for your suggestions. indeed we have plans to build up traits like this. ethnic traits are a grait way and there are basic ethnic traits for ERE, for example, from a greek familiy, mixed greek and non greek heritage. the bulgarian empire has traitlines, that prefer or hate the ERE and depending on the political situation (king is prefereing or hate ERE) and/or at war, neutral or allies with ERE, they suffer or gain loyality. this will be polished at some point.

[Majkl]

Hey men,
few years ago I wanted to surprise you with some proposals for Great Moravian roster. Due to work I never finished it and forgot about it. I just randomly found it in my PC, so I decided to post it here, since I will probably never finish it.
Initially I wanted to include historical records from which I took inspiration, both written and archeological and some pictures. Unfortunately it was very time consuming and since I study PhD in history of 20th century take everything with grain of salt. Especially since, it is not finished.

Brief sketch of Great Moravian roster

Abbreviations: OCS – Old church slavonic (terms rooted in written historical records; the ones used in parenthesis are also historical, often considered synonymous)
lat. – latin
eng. – english
Type of units as well as descriptions are personal, highly subjective interpretation of very scarce historical documents and applied to game mechanics. In other words, we can not tell if Župane or Kmete used any retinue but it is highly probable. Their arms and armors are pure speculation based on some scarce historical evidence of arms and armor used in Great Moravia.

PROFFESSIONAL WARRIOR CLASSES


OCS: Druzi;
(OCS: muži čьstьnyję čędi; lat. amici, socii)
Type: Elite – Dux/Rex personal guard
Mounted
Small number (Personal bodyguards, only most trusted men)
Exceptionally well equiped:
Weapons: spears, high quality (imported) swords, knives, probably axes too
Armor: chainmail over padded armor, large round shields, occasional helemts
(existence of high quality swords, helmets and probably chainmail has been proven archeologically)

Druzi were group of professional warriors of highest class. These men were personal bodyguards of ruler tasked with his protection. The origin of this group of men spurs from ancient tribal organization. The term is rooted in old-slavic/proto-slavic drugъ (commong among all Slavs) indicating slavic origin.
As such, these men were professional warriors, they had access to highest quality arms and armour.

OCS: Velьmıži
(OCS: mıži čьstьvii i dobrorodьnii; lat. nobiles viri, primates, optimales; eng. nobles)
Type: Professional
Mounted/Dismounted
Medium numbers (top notch warriors, expensive)
Well equiped: Same as Druzi except chainmail, smaller distribution of swords compared to Druzi, larger distribution of axes and other „home-made“ weapons)

Velmuži were group of professional warriors second only to kings personal bodyguars. As such they can afford highest quality arms and armor. They were core of Great Moravian army in any serious military conflict. The term originates in old slavic for „big/large men“ (big/large in sense of great social status). In historical records often reffered as noble men, virtuous men or „first“ men.

OCS: Županьe (retinues of Županъ)
Type: Professional
Mounted
Small numbers (quality warriors, too expensive to maintain in large numbers)
Well equiped:
Weapons: spears, axes, knives, occasionaly sword
Armour: padded armor, large shield, some form of leather hat?
Županьe were part of Velьmiži, but they had their own agenda. As such they stood as leaders of military-administrative districts known as Župa. In the center of such administrative units stood gradъ (eng. city, lat. urbs). It is expected that these men had judical and administrative power over entire župa. As such they had their own personal retinues. These warriors are well armed and equipped.

OCS: Kъmetьe
Type: Professional
Dismounted (not able to afford horse, since dismounted, probably fought in shieldwall)
Small numbers (Kmete were leaders of small rural areas, not enough resources to provide large number of men)
Decently equiped:
Weapons: spears(different from mounted men), axes, knives, no swords
Armour: large oval shield, padded armor, probably some form of hat

Counties (župa) were quite large administrative unit. As such they were divied into smaller parts comprised of smaller rural areas. Kъmetьe were leaders of rural freepeople, it is expected that they hold judical and executive power. Their duties demanded that they had some little retinue of lightly armed and equiped men. They were basically one step below Županьe. Seasoned warriors who could hold their own in battles, tho they lacked high quality arms and armors of higher class warriors as well as professional training.

NON-PROFFESSIONAL CLASS (CONSCRIPTION)

OCS: ...
(eng. county soldiers?, lat. comitatus ...?)
Type: Non-professional
Dismounted
Large numbers
Decently equipped
Men hailing from counties (župa/comitatus)...

Also.. what happened to forums? They look weird now!

[Jale82]

I think it could be possible to add certain dynasties to Roman state with appropriate ancillaries, traits and sigils based on surnames.
For ex. emperor Basil I is from ruling Macedonian dynasty, that means that all his descendants must have high loyalty and other
traits which correspond that dynasty (few command stars, piety...), while for ex. Skleros dynasty had low loyalty, more
command stars and so on...

But these things and other proposals should be in consideration with release of the mod.
I think that TGC will have larger sub-mods section than SS.

[antiochos_hierax]

I’m not sure what buildings you guys use but here are some suggestions for historically accurate buildings for the Roman Empire that you may wish to incorporate.
Health Buildings
Xenon- Available to large towns, provides a health and public order bonus. Xenones were the most popular form of health institution in the Roman empire at the time.
Nosokomeion- An upgrade from xenon when the town is upgraded, maned by hypourgoi, archiatroi etc. Higher health bonus and population bonus.
Syllogos Iatron [Upgrade from Nosokomeion] – Only available in the most populous cities (maybe only Constantinople and Thessalonica from the starting regions), doctors have started to form professional societies to ensure good quality treatment. Doctors were very rare and were generally seen as incompetent and greedy in most of the empire, hence the Syllogos can only be established in the most populous of cities where there is enough of them and there is proper regulation.
Public order Buildings
Ptochocomeion- Building that cares for the poor. Lots of examples of this, including Saint Basil’s ptochocomeion etc. Increases public order but player suffers a penalty to emulate money used to feed, take care of the poor.
Orphanotropheion- Orthanage, again lots of examples in this time period. Most of them being in Asia Minor. Sometimes citizens were ordered to pay a tax to cover the costs of the orthanage. Increases public order and population surplus.
Strateiotika Kteimata/ Strateia- Military grants. Soldiers were given land in order to sustain themselves and pay for the military equipment. Provides a boost to the economy as the state gains money in the form of taxes/ rent and does not need to provide weapons. Provides a small public order boost and higher unit replenishment rate.
Adoreia [Upgrade from Strateia] – The downside to Strateia was that when the soldier died, his land was split between his heirs. If the soldier had too many heirs they would each inherit a very small piece of land that wasn’t able to sustain them. Adoreia was then established in order to provide a monetary help to those who didn’t have enough kteimata/ choraphia. Provides public order bonus.
Katagogia – Basic Inn
Allelengyon- Allelengyon was a law introduced by Basil II in order to reduce the power of the dynatoi and help the aporoi farmers. The dynatoi (aristocrats) were ordered to pay the tax of their workers (peasants) if they couldn’t afford it. It can provide a public order bonus as the lower (and most populous) class are now happier than before. Downside could be a monetary penalty (say –100 per turn) in order to emulate the increased corruption and decline in farming as the dynatoi prefer to employ less workers than pay their taxes.
Commerce Buildings
Charistikia- Charistike dorea- an institution of the Roman empire that involved the charistike dorea (donation) of monasteries to private individuals unrelated to the monasteries' founders for a limited period of time and under which income was received from a monastery by a layman who had been granted the right to manage the monastery’s property and control its revenue. This provides an income boost as the workers who control/ rebuild the property can now pay higher taxes. In order to establish the Charistikia the player will need to firstly build a church/ monastery.
Exaleimmata, exaleimmatikai staseis- The exaleimmata were a good source of revenue for pronoia grants and for the empire’s revenue as abandoned property was given to citizens for cultivation. Examples of such property given were ampelion demosiakon (vineyard), ge (land), choraphia (fields), some were charged the ampelopakton (vineyard-rent). This will again give an increase in tradeable goods/ economy as more people are now employed and can pay taxes.
Kommerkion- At this time, ports and ship businesses were generally viewed as private dealings and thus not very profitable as the empire was in need for food and didn’t want to discourage people from creating such a business by monitoring them closely. The best way the empire made money through naval commerce was through the kommerkion, which was a 10% tax on the ships. At this point, Abydus was the city making the most money though the tax, with Sinope and Trebizond also making a substantial amount. The Venetians were given an exemption from this tax during the Komnenian Dynasty. Building the Kommerkion will give an income boost to the already established port building. The governor/ strategos of the region can gain a “kommerkiarios” (official who collected the kommerkioin) ancillary, raising the income more.
Nautikon Somateion (Ναυτικόν Σωματείον)- Association of Ship Owners [Upgrade from Kommerkion] Evidence of such an organisation appears in Thessalonica, where naval commerce operators were created and were monitored by their own, established associations. This will be an upgrade from the Kommerkion as it provides an increase in tradeable goods along with a slight increase in law or public order, as ship commerce prices and practises are now regulated.
SILK BUILDINGS
Systema Metaxopraton- This can be established only in Constantinople. Although silk distribution and selling were highly regulated, some Roman regions (mostly in Greece eg Thebes, Corinth, Sparta) were allowed to operate private silk workshops that produced a lower quality silk. In fact, high-ability workers (such as Jews, who were known for their silk making skills) preferred to work in these workshops instead of the imperial workshop (as Jewish people were not allowed to work there). The Metaxopratai were dealers of cocoons, raw silk. This building is the first building in the process of the silk industry. This building will give an increase in tradeable goods/ Economy. This building is a requirement for Koinoniai and Vasilika Ergodosia to be build.
Koinoniai Metaxopoion- Silk-maker Association [Upgrade] This will be an upgrade from Systema Metaxopraton, it shows the cooperation between Metaxopratai, Katartarioi, Serikarioi, Vestiopratai etc. In making silk. It will give a big boost in income to the regions of Greece and Constantinople. To establish this, at least one region in Greece needs to have a purple-shell-fisherman's guild (systema).
Βασιλικά Εργοδόσια- Vasilika Ergodosia- Imperial Workshops. Can only be established in Constantinople. This is the highest upgrade of the Silk buildings and can only be built after Koinoniai Metaxopoion has been established. The Imperial Workshops were the only Workshops allow to process and create the highest quality-silk in the Roman Empire. Silk was viewed as only available to the most noble of people, and thus it was highly moderated. Nobles/ Aristocrats were not allowed to own their own personal workshops (however sotimes they were allowed to make silk for personal use) and selling this silk to foreigners was prohibited and punishable by law (Book of the Eparch). Smaller private guilds (συστήματα) were allowed (although under strict supervision) and could only produce a second-quality silk. The Vasilika Ergodosia provide a major monetary boost to economy.
OTHER COMMERCE BUILDINGS
Purple- Shell Fishermen’s Guild- Can only be built in Laconia, Crete, Levant, Euboea, Argolis and Athens. Increases income to the region, at least one of these must be built in the regions in order for Systema Metaxopraton to be build. The downside could be slower unit replenishment and lower recruitment rate, as the workers of these regions are valued highly, and cannot be replaced easily (eg Romanos Lekapenos did not require the workers of these regions to take part in the military campaign or provide horses).
Dovecotes- This building can only be built in Central Mikra Asia (Kappadokia) or Armenia. Dovecote waste was used as valued fertiliser for the grounds of Asia Minor as it could be produced in high numbers and quickly. Doves multiplied quickly and dove meat could also be eaten. The building provides an increase in farming production/ income, it can provide a small farming bonus to the adjacent regions too. Pigeon waste was vital to agricultural life. A perennial problem for farmers of the pre-industrial era, and one frequently cited by scholars as inherent to the primitivism of agriculture in the Mediterranean world, was a lack of fertilizer. Under normal conditions, especially in naturally poor lands like those in many parts of central and eastern Anatolia, soil fertility would quickly decline. Eventually yields would stabilize at a low return that would probably not satisfy subsistence requirements, let alone generate any kind of surplus. Byzantine farmers understood that the remedy for the problem of poor soil recovery and low yield was the application of pigeon waste, undoubtedly one of the most potent fertilizers of the pre-industrial age


Koinoniai Argyropraton- Silversmith Society, regulated system of silversmiths, mentioned in the Book of the eparch. Increases economic boost in the region, reduces public order as Argyropratai would sometimes illegally loan people money with a high interest rate. Can only be establish in very populous and rich regions.
Systemata Argyropraton – [Upgrade from Koinoniai] The Silversmiths are now under a guild and must follow proper laws, failure to do so will result in punishments. This is an upgrade from Koinoniai and has a reduced public order penalty compared to that. It can only be established in developed, urban cities with high law values.

[_Tartaros_]

@maijkl and antiochos_hierax

Ohh, that´s brilliant - as i currently fill in the gaps of text´s and buildinglines + we are working on names and units for unfinished factions (like moravia).

[antiochos_hierax]

Sorry if I'm being annoying, this is some more possible building chains regarding ports, wine-making etc.

WINE INDUSTRY
Here’s some pictures of Byzantine business structure and resources available to the empire: https://imgur.com/a/adjYDSD
Ampelotopion- Vineyard- Provides increased trading income, this is the most basic building in the wine making process. Most vineyard’s where located near the city as the produce had to be transported quickly before it turned bad (and the roads in Mikra Asia had deteriorated, making travelling longer and more dangerous). Vineyards were considered αυτούργια, i.e. a productive and profit-making (ευπρόσοδον). Grapevine cultivation was a very time-consuming and difficult work. Vineyards were profitable to both the owners and the empire as taxation on vineyards ranged from 3 to 7 nomismata per modios. In comparison, a modios of first-class land (irrigated fields) was assessed at only one nomisma and a modios of a second-class arable land at half a nomisma. Vineyards were owned by big landlords, lay and monastic; by peasants, independent or paroikoi , with holdings ranging from 0.5 to 10 modii but mostly 2 modii per household. This building could give increase in tradeable goods/ income with the downside being –1 farming production/ income. Ampelotopion should be a requirement building if the player wishes to build a Katagogion, as the Inns bought wine/ grapevines in wholesale from the region. If a port higher than Skala exists, it provides a bonus to the income made, if a Naustathmos is built the income is higher (as piracy decreases).
Georgikos Nomos [Upgrade from Ampelotopion]- Farmer's Law. The Farmer's Law saw to it that private property rights on vineyards were safeguarded, and protective measures were adopted and expanded by subsequent Byzantine legislation. Thus, entry into someone's land without the owner's permission was prohibited. Provides a law bonus along with a trade bonus with the downside being a small happiness decline.
Dekateia ton Oinarion - This one is a little nitpicky but in my opinion, it adds to the immersion. Dekateia ton Oinarion should only be available to be built in Constantinople. It was a tax that was levied on wine transported by sea to Constantinople amounting to 10% (similar to kommerkion but for wine transported to Constantinople only). Downside is happiness penalty.
Hetairiai Oinopolon [Upgrade from Georgikos Nomos]– Wine-merchants' association. Requires city wall upgrade and Naustathmos to be built. Most of wine-trading was done through maritime trading. The wine wholesale merchants have now began to augment their capital by forming business associations. Provides a higher income increase than georgikos nomos. Provides a bonus if an Inn (Katagogion) is built. Downside is a loss of farming income (-2 or -3)


INN
Katagogion- Basic Inn [requires either Ampelotopion or Hormos to be built] Also known as kapeleion. People come here to stay for the night, or they come to drink. It provides a happiness bonus to the region. Downside is a health cost as the Medieval Romans liked to drink a lot. This excessive wine consumption forced the Church to castigate intemperance and to stress the dire consequences of excessive drinking (αμετρία οίνου λογισμόν κατασβέννυσι).
The building provides an economic bonus if the region has at least an Ampelotopion, higher if it has an Hetairiai Oinopolon. This emulates the buyer-seller relationship between inn-owners and wine wholesale merchants.
Systema Kapeleion – [Upgrade from Katagogion] Inn-Owner Guild Only available to the largest of cities. Inn-owners now operate under a regulated guild. Slightly higher happiness bonus than katagogion and lower health cost. The guild-organized tavern-inn-keepers in Constantinople operated under a special regime at least until the end of the twelfth century, a period during which guilds are known to have existed. When wine was imported into the capital, the chiefs of the tavern-inn-keepers' guild had to report it to the Eparch. It was then the duty of his assessor to adjust the measures and jugs the tavern-inn-keepers used to retail their wine proportionate to the purchase price, in effect setting the maximum profit level, which was the usually the same for all.


PORTS
Ports were important for the empire and should be distinguished between commercial and military ports (garrisons).

COMMERCIAL
Hormos- Natural harbour. Hormoi were very important in during the Byzantine empire. By the 8^th century most of previously large ports had become abandoned due to either natural consequences or Arabic raids. However, this deterioration did not lead to a decline of maritime trade, as trade in smaller ports was still widely utilised. The location of the port was very important to its success.
Factors such as: a) presence of a sandy beach for loading, unloading, and dockyard activities; b) protection offered by a promontory or rocky area, including protection from marine currents and coastal winds, but also as a defence from enemy attack, because a hilly promontory was suitable for fortifications .and provided a lookout. C) location near the mouth of a river or smaller watercourse to provide fresh water for the settlement and sailors and to serve as an easy route for communication with the interior.
Gives an increase in tradeable income.
Skala - [Upgrade from Hormos available once an Inn, Winemaking or Purple shellfish building has been built] Σκάλαι stood for anchorages. Skalai were small, widely used ports. People may have preferred to use side anchorages rather than big city-ports (with built harbours) in this period in order to avoid the official port taxation. Increases trade income as shipowners pay the σκαλιατικόν tax, reduces public order due to law. Provides a bonus if the region has winemaking buildings, inns or purple shell fish guilds.
Epineion- [Upgrade from Skala]- An epineion was a small satellite harbour. Trade bonus.
Kematothraphstes- Breakwater [Upgrade from Epineion] Manmade arches were built within ports/ harbours in order to lower the damage done to the ships by waves. Examples include the Kontoskalion port. Increases income as more boats are in good condition to operate.
Limen- Λιμήν [Upgrade from Breakwater]- Port. At this point the port/ harbour has grown to a bigger size and it can support more buildings such as granaries (σιτοφυλακεῖον) and storages (αποθήκη). The port officials can now begin to charge the merchants some taxes such as the λιμενιακός and ναύλος taxes. To build a limen, a Naustathmos needs to be have been first built in the region.
Kommerkion [Requires Neorion Building]- At this time, ports and ship businesses were generally viewed as private dealings and thus not very profitable as the empire was in need for food and didn’t want to discourage people from creating such a business by monitoring them closely. The best way the empire made money through naval commerce was through the kommerkion, which was a 10% tax on the ships. At this point, Abydus was the city making the most money though the tax, with Sinope, Attaleia and Trebizond also making a substantial amount. The Venetians were given an exemption from this tax during the Komnenian Dynasty. Building the Kommerkion will give an income boost to the already established port building. The governor/ strategos of the region can gain a “kommerkiarios” (official who collected the kommerkion) ancillary, raising the income more.
Limen Kleistos- Fortified Port It is the best port for commerce, only available to the most prosperous of cities, and it can store oil supplies along with granaries. It provides a big bonus to income/ tradeable goods which increases even more if the region has wine, inn or industry (silk, purple shellfish) buildings. Downside is decrease in public order due to law.
Nautikon Somateion (Ναυτικόν Σωματείον)- Association of Ship Owners [Upgrade to Limen Kleistos] Evidence of such an organisation appears in Thessalonica, where naval commerce operators were created and were monitored by their own, established associations. This will be an upgrade to Limen Kleistos, as it provides an increase in tradeable goods along with a slight increase in law or public order, as ship commerce prices and practises are now regulated.

MILITARY PORTS
Naustathmoi [Requires at least an Epineion port]- “Ναύσταθμοι” were a sufficient surveillance force of shipping lanes in certain regions and fulfilled the requirements of patrolling warships. Building a Naustathmos will increase public order due to law along with increasing income from the commercial ports as merchants can now trade with less fear of piracy (trade bonus). Light military ships were built in these Naustathmous along with commercial ships. Downside can be an expense payment (-50 or –150 per turn maybe).
Neorion kai Naupegeia- Νεώριον και Ναυπηγεία Neorion was a naval area near the sea where ships were equipped, maintained and fixed if they were damaged. Naupegia had the same role of fixing warships. Both these were built near a forest, to make sure that there was quick access to timber and other material. Provides law bonus, trade bonus and experience bonus for fleets. Downside is an expense payment (maybe -100 or -200) as there is a cost to building ships and having them patrolling.

MILITARY
Strategic Fortifications- Regions around usual warzones (eg Cilicia and Syria) were usually fortified for a possible attack. Fortifications along with kleisourai around the Taurus mountains were established in order to stop any raiding parties. Provides trading bonus as people find it safer and easier to trade in the fortified settlements. Downside is lower farm income.
Aplekton- ἄπληκτον
Aplekta were major assembly areas, where stores of supplies were kept and where the provincial armies of the themata were to join the main imperial force for a campaign. Malagina, Dorylaion, Kaborkin, Koloneia, Kaisareia and Dazimon are examples of aplekta. The player can only build 5 aplekta throughout his regions. To build an aplekton, strategic fortifications needs to be built first. The aplekton building should provide a law bonus, many more available unit numbers and higher replenishment rate along with a trade bonus (as soldiers protect the area from raiding parties). Downside could be loss of farming income as more soldiers consume more supplies and happiness penalty.

[_Tartaros_]

keep them comming!
much of them fit to our current buildinglines, like the ports (they are later split in military or trade in TGC) and wine industry.
are you familiar with bulgarian empire buildings too?

[AnthoniusII]

@Majkl
Thank you for your proposals for the unit names.
@antiochos_hierax
Thank you for your building proposals but you confused modern building names with older ones.
In middles ages there was not a "katagogeion" that is a 19th century name.
Also in Constantinople every job (fishermen, leather workers, wax makers) had their own sindicat (union). The name of those sindicats(unions) was syntechneia /plural syntechneiae.
Skala is a latin term that was NOT used in Roman emprire but in Venetian or Genuese collonies AFTER 1300 AD!
USSING the Greek language that was in use from 1830 to 1970 does not make the sugestions correct. Middle ages hellenic or better Romano/Hellenistic language is more complicated.
I sugest you buy the Leontos Sofou Taktika that those two books have the original text in middle ages language and their translation to modern greek.
I possess 3 Roman military manuals writen in middle ages romano/hellenistic language, believe me... Also a good place to learn that language or better hear it as it was back then is to visit the nearest Church in your city and hear or read the texts.
Thank you for your sugestions though.

[antiochos_hierax]

@AnthoniusII
I disagree on a lot of things you said. The terms I’m using are not modern greek.
On the use of katagogion (as I said καπηλείον was also widely used but katagogion was another word for it). Evidence by Sozomen “« Βασιλειάδος ό πτωχών εστίν επισημότατον καταγώγιον, υπό Βασιλείου κατασκευασθέν, αφ’ ου την προσηγορίαν την αρχήν έλαβε και εις έτι νυν έχει»” It definitely didn’t originate form the 19^th century.
The term skala was used by the Byzantines. Example of it in the ἐπαρχικὸν βιβλίον, written at the time of Leo the Wise and perhaps the most important book on Byzantine infrastructure. “«οι ιχθυοπράται την εξώνησiν ποιείτωσαν εν ταις αιγιαλοίς και εν ταις σκάλαις”.
“Indeed, the sources have provided us with a great number of Byzantine names for places which are defined by the authors as λιμήν, ἐπίνειον or κατάβολος, ἐμπόριον, ὄρμος, σκάλα, ἀρσανάς”
“The λιμήν would mean a port; the ἐπίνειον or κατάβολος a satellite harbouror town; Ἐμπόριον a commercial centre; Ὄρμος ( ὀρμίσκος) would mean a bay or natural harbour, defined either as a natural embayment suitable for mooring or a cove enclosed by headlands, or as the internal basin of a harbour; Σκάλα stood for an anchorage and Ἀρσανάς for a small anchorage”
The article is “Byzantine ports and harbours in the complex interplay between environment and society. An evaluation of evidence from Greece, Cyprus and Asia Minor.”
“Apart of the regulation concerning the items or services foreseen for every guild to be offered the EB had regulations about the places (forum), streets (emboli), harbors (neorion, prosphorion), fishing grounds (epochai, skalai)” Article “Products and markets - The activities of the imperial guilds of Constantinople”
On Guilds/ Unions

“The Book of the Eparch defined the economic activities that had to be undertaken by private enterprises mandatorily organized into guilds (συστήματα)”- The Domain of Private Guilds in the Byzantine Economy, Tenth to Fifteenth Centuries
Systemata, syntexniai, somateia, syllogoi were all terms used for the different guild associations depending on the type of the job.
“Trade and exchange activities were controlled by the Empire which retained the monopoly of issuing coinage, aiming to maintain a continuous and flexible monetary system. The imperial policy especially exercised formal control over the activity of the craftsmen guilds, the professional unions or corporations (συντεχνίαι - syntexniai, συντροφίαι - syntrophiai, συστήματα - systemata)”
Notice how the author of the article doesn’t use “AE” at the end? That’s because the Byzantines didn’t use the latin diphtongs and the only letter they retained from the Latins was the C (eg ΒΑCIΛΕΙΟC). Writing συντεχνίαι as syntechneiae is (in my opinion) much more unhistorical than writing it as syntexniai.
Just because you’re writing in latin characters it doesn’t mean that you can’t transliterate the words. The same way in EB2 Hellenistic ports are written as “Epineion” and not “Portus”. Byzantines spoke Greek and very few spoke/ wrote in Latin by this point, the mod/ buildings should reflect that.
What do you think is the most accurate title? Calling Nikephoros Phokas’ military manual “Praecepta Militaria” or “Strategikè ékthesis kaì syntaxis Nikephórou despótou”?

Military manuals mean nothing when infrastructure is concerned.

Here are some of my resources:
THE GUILD-ORGANIZED BANKING SERVICES SECTOR IN CONSTANTINOPLE (10 th -12 th CENTURIES) Author(s): George C. Maniatis
THE BYZANTINE WINEMAKING INDUSTRY
George C. Maniatis
Geoponika: Farm Work. A Modern Translation of the Roman and Byzantine Farming Handbook by Andrew Dalby
Τὸ ἐπαρχικὸν βιβλίον- Book of the Eparch

Best and bad practices - The imperial guilds of Constantinople Dimitrios G. Mavridis
Byzantine ports and harbours in the complex interplay between environment and society. An evaluation of evidence from Greece, Cyprus and Asia Minor.
The Sea in History - The Medieval World
Harbours and shipbuilding in Byzantine Constantinople
Nergis Günsenin
The Byzantine economy and the sea: the maritime trade of Byzantium, 10th–15th centuries
Trade and Industry in Byzantine Anatolia: The Evidence from Amorium

[Allee]

Hello, guys! Glad to see the project is developing. And from my side I'd like to offer the reworked model of magyars. May be this material can be useful for you. You can see and download it here, on russian largest TW community forum: http://imtw.ru/topic/56747-varianty-...vya-s-12-po-1/

[antiochos_hierax]

More evidence on the use of σύστημα (meaning guild) and the interchangeability between σύστημα, συντεχνία, σωματεῖο.
«When the emperor went on campaign, he tallied the number of men remaining to defend the city—soldiers of the tagmata, organized groups answerable to the eparch (among them, the members of the guilds)—and made certain that each of these groups knew its precise post on the ramparts:
«εν ποίῷ μέρει έκαστον τούτων τῶν συστημάτων φυλάξει την πόλιν εν καιρῶ επιδημίας εχθρῶν»
J. F. Haldon,
Constantine Porphyrogenitus, Three Treatises on Imperial Military Expeditions

«Πολιτικά σωματεία simply means “guilds of the City”» Schreiner, “Organisation,” 50, 52, 56


What characterizes the eleventh and twelfth centuries was the growing difference between small street merchants (they were quick to riot, we are told) and the powerful merchants and financiers such as Kalomodios, who treated the archontes as equals, or the money changers and merchants of manufactured goods who had themselves granted the dignity of sebastos during the reign of Alexios III Angelos.
This progressive social differentiation might account for the distinguishing, in the 11th century, between σωματεῖα and συστήματα a distinction that would not have made sense in the 10th century; (Laiou, “The Festival,” 117)

Anyway, I won’t make any more suggestions since it seems you guys know what you want to do.
All the best for the future and the future of the mod.

[AnthoniusII]

Hello, guys! Glad to see the project is developing. And from my side I'd like to offer the reworked model of magyars. May be this material can be useful for you. You can see and download it here, on russian largest TW community forum: http://imtw.ru/topic/56747-varianty-...vya-s-12-po-1/

Thank you but we have a policy to make all our unit models same style like a real game would offer. Its not a matter of quality but a matter of prospective.

More evidence on the use of σύστημα (meaning guild) and the interchangeability between σύστημα, συντεχνία, σωματεῖο.
«When the emperor went on campaign, he tallied the number of men remaining to defend the city—soldiers of the tagmata, organized groups answerable to the eparch (among them, the members of the guilds)—and made certain that each of these groups knew its precise post on the ramparts:
«εν ποίῷ μέρει έκαστον τούτων τῶν συστημάτων φυλάξει την πόλιν εν καιρῶ επιδημίας εχθρῶν»
J. F. Haldon,
Constantine Porphyrogenitus, Three Treatises on Imperial Military Expeditions

«Πολιτικά σωματεία simply means “guilds of the City”» Schreiner, “Organisation,” 50, 52, 56


What characterizes the eleventh and twelfth centuries was the growing difference between small street merchants (they were quick to riot, we are told) and the powerful merchants and financiers such as Kalomodios, who treated the archontes as equals, or the money changers and merchants of manufactured goods who had themselves granted the dignity of sebastos during the reign of Alexios III Angelos.
This progressive social differentiation might account for the distinguishing, in the 11th century, between σωματεῖα and συστήματα a distinction that would not have made sense in the 10th century; (Laiou, “The Festival,” 117)

Anyway, I won’t make any more suggestions since it seems you guys know what you want to do.
All the best for the future and the future of the mod.

All usefull you posted. I did not mean to stop posting. No one knows everything. Even the tiniest detail can triger some realy good idea. We never claimed that we know everything in all matters.

[_Tartaros_]

updates to the build since the last post

added missing UI for "Reisige Banner", Rikote Tjarlai" and "Lesser Druzina" to EFE and HRE
fixed silver surfer for rebel frankish and bulgarian captain and general
found a spelling error in the {} in the export_buildings.txt
deleted to unused "_name" lines in e_b.txt
+1 recruitmentslot to all corebuilding and -1 for every barracktier - this prevents no recruitment of available agents and fleets in settlements without barracks
silver surfer for the aghlabid, tulunids, serbian and moravian king/emir (reason: they use chandax, franks and croatian king + hier models)
added missing factions and some missing characters to the battlemodelscript + corrected the descr_strat and bmdb

[perris0707]

As always, thanks much Tartaros!

[_Tartaros_]

very good news: as it seems - i was just able to fix a longtime ctd in our build. the so called "dead captain" slave UI bug
this was one of the most constant reasons for ctd in our build.

[perris0707]

Just out of curiosity, and this may have been explained before, but why did you choose the start date of 872? I get the end date...