re: Public Assistance a.k.a Welfare

[morteduzionism]

I wanted to start a conversation about public assistance and the idea of the welfare queen.

it has become a stigmatizing label placed on recidivist poor mothers, with studies showing that it often carries gendered and racial connotations.

Studies show that the public dramatically overestimates the number of African-Americans in poverty, with the cause of this attributed to media trends and its portrayal of poverty.[10] Political scientist Martin Gilens found that the media shifted its focus on poverty from white Appalachian farmers and factory closings during the 1960s, to a very darker image following civil unrest in major US cities.[10] By 1973, 75% of magazine pictures featured African Americans as the face of welfare, despite African Americans making up only 35% of welfare recipients.

I'm really not sure what point I'm ultimately trying to make it's just that...

After hearing that Nadya Suleman is receiving and has been receiving public assistance...it irked me a little.

First she lied and said she didn't receive any. Then it was just food stamps now it's $2300/month in food stamps and disability payments (for two children)...

I thought her father confidently stated he made enough money to support the family?<---actually I saw the interview so I know he said it

To me, this is similiar to the Dorothy Woods case

Infamous welfare 'queen' Dorothy Woods, who was sentenced to eight years (the maximum) for cheating the welfare system out of over $300,000 at an average amount of over $5000 per month...At the time of her fraud, Woods lived in a Pasadena mansion and drove Rolls Royce and Mercedes automobiles purchased for her by her then husband.

Woods said that welfare reform was necessary because she knew that there were 'more people like her' out there.

It irks me that detractors attack the concept of public assistance and try to paint a picture of some poor (____) woman having babies specifically to milk the system...

I don't know.

It just seems like people should be understanding enough to differentiate between black hearted criminals (Doroth Woods) and people caught in a bad situation.

Don't use the crimes of the Dorothy Woods' to punish the rest.

As for Nadya Suleman she also has a website up soliciting donations! WTF!?

You alread had six children. You consciously chose to have/keep eight more children...going so far as to receive fertility treatments...

Your father claims to be rich.

Yet you receive public assistance and you're asking for donations!?

Sorry for the rant...it's just when I heard this story and saw her and her family she instantly became the persona of the upper middle class people (not based on any factual evidence) who are against public assistance yet are the ones abusing it in the most aggregious ways.

[Thorn777]

Independent and government studies where done in Germany to put a finger on the misuse of welfare. Both came to the conclusion that less then 10% is misusing in one form or another, although misuse is pretty easy to accomplish. That being said, punishments are also quite striking for the ones caught. Most misuse is related to having an illegal-non-tax-paying job aside, which is also a national hobby in Germany to pay the bills, so the ones scratching pennys are at least just as likely to do some illegal haircutting, carpeting etc.

No reason to demonize the other 90%. Have a little faith in the people.

[morteduzionism]

Independent and government studies where done in Germany to put a finger on the misuse of welfare. Both came to the conclusion that less then 10% is misusing in one form or another, although misuse is pretty easy to accomplish. That being said, punishments are also quite striking for the ones caught. Most misuse is related to having an illegal-non-tax-paying job aside, which is also a national hobby in Germany to pay the bills, so the ones scratching pennys are at least just as likely to do some illegal haircutting, carpeting etc.

No reason to demonize the other 90%. Have a little faith in the people.

I agree 100%!

That's part of what I'm trying to say. Arguing for the complete end to these types of programs because of a small amount of (bleep)holes is nonsensical.

I thought an applicant had to disclose their families income (or at least anyone who will provide support) when applying for public assistance. If her father really is a millionaire, she should've never qualified...I would think.

[JP226]

Independent and government studies where done in Germany to put a finger on the misuse of welfare. Both came to the conclusion that less then 10% is misusing in one form or another, although misuse is pretty easy to accomplish. That being said, punishments are also quite striking for the ones caught. Most misuse is related to having an illegal-non-tax-paying job aside, which is also a national hobby in Germany to pay the bills, so the ones scratching pennys are at least just as likely to do some illegal haircutting, carpeting etc.

No reason to demonize the other 90%. Have a little faith in the people.

welfare goes beyond the direct misuse. It establishes a situation where the cost of doing well are actually increased. Think about it this way, say you grow up in a black urban family. Odds are your parents received poor education which in turn rubs off on your own psyche, striving to do well in school just doesn't appeal. Neighborhoods are wrecked by crack gains and the celebrities you want to be like are warlords. (On a side note, the average salary of a drug dealer is $3.50 an hour, why are there so many drug dealers? Because they all think they'll make it big, the top guys bring in from 100k to 500k annually) Bottomline, life sucks, not a whole lot of opportunity. Maybe you an get a job at McDonalds. So along comes welfare, and I think it's roughly something like 15k a year. You can get that, OR you can bust your ass 40 hours a week and net an extra 5 grand. What do you do? Take the check til the check won't come in anymore, grab a job for six months then grab unemployment or go back on welfare til you hit the five year mark. The abuse isn't just coming from welfare queens who scam checks, it's coming from people that have no real incentive to work.

Say welfare was 50k a year, would you go on it? The opportunity cost for you is way too high to work. That 50k to you is like 15k to people with no future.

[morteduzionism]

welfare goes beyond the direct misuse. It establishes a situation where the cost of doing well are actually increased. Think about it this way, say you grow up in a black urban family. Odds are your parents received poor education which in turn rubs off on your own psyche, striving to do well in school just doesn't appeal. Neighborhoods are wrecked by crack gains and the celebrities you want to be like are warlords. (On a side note, the average salary of a drug dealer is $3.50 an hour, why are there so many drug dealers? Because they all think they'll make it big, the top guys bring in from 100k to 500k annually) Bottomline, life sucks, not a whole lot of opportunity. Maybe you an get a job at McDonalds. So along comes welfare, and I think it's roughly something like 15k a year. You can get that, OR you can bust your ass 40 hours a week and net an extra 5 grand. What do you do? Take the check til the check won't come in anymore, grab a job for six months then grab unemployment or go back on welfare til you hit the five year mark. The abuse isn't just coming from welfare queens who scam checks, it's coming from people that have no real incentive to work.

Say welfare was 50k a year, would you go on it? The opportunity cost for you is way too high to work. That 50k to you is like 15k to people with no future.

Thank you for this.

This is precisely what I find irksome. This narrow minded, as close to bigoted as I can imagine, viewpoint that welfare is a "black urban problem"...it's not.

There're more white people on welfare.

There're more suburban poor white people on welfare.



Alas, fearmongering...gotta love it...NOT!

[Rush Limbaugh]

Welfare is like never letting your children out of the house. People need to suffer to grow and improve themselves. You cant deny the Ying and Yang in the world. You cant have joy without pain. Stop living in liberal fanatasy land.

[Ahlerich]

there is an ass in public assistance :drumroll:

Welfare is like never letting your children out of the house. People need to suffer to grow and improve themselves.

No welfare is like letting one of your kids starve so that the other can eat double portions and get fat and nobody likes fat kids.

fat kids get wegies - i hate wedgies. no wellfare basically just creates wedgies

sure you can wear no underwear but that is only working with the symthoms rather then the cause. ok time to take my funny colorful pills.

[Rush Limbaugh]

No welfare is like letting one of your kids starve so that the other can eat double portions and get fat and nobody likes fat kids.

So you think its ok to steal. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

[Ahlerich]

So you think its ok to steal. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

stealing is bad, letting your own children starve is worse.

[JP226]

This is precisely what I find irksome. This narrow minded, as close to bigoted as I can imagine, viewpoint that welfare is a "black urban problem"...it's not.

It's not a black urban problem. Err... it is and it isn't. Because you are black does not mean you have a low cost of accepting welfare. It just so happens that being black correlates with a higher likelihood of accepting welfare. Why? For the reasons I stated above, your parents weren't well educated (the whole separate but equal thing that was rampant throughout the country), crack itself has done heavy damage to the black family and because of those two factors, making it big in an urban culture is more in line with being a local drug lord that nets 500k a year versus some celebrity out in hollywood or big time CEO in manhatten. Being white correlates generally with less of a likelihood of accepting welfare. Your parents were better educated in general, you don't have the crack gangs (although in the redneck neighborhoods meth does cause the same results that crack does in the black neighborhoods) and making it big is seen as those celebrities and ceos, not the "local" gang that is typically many more miles away and virtually unknown to alot of suburban kids.

[Rush Limbaugh]

Welfare has devastated the Black community. It has ruined the black family. Obuma wants revenge and will now offer welfare to us white people

[Ahlerich]

Welfare has devastated the Black community. It has ruined the black family. Obuma wants revenge and will now offer welfare to us white people

jeez dude. we always had public welfare in post ww2 germany and it didnt destroy our society. our little country is still in the front row.

oops how did that happen, sorry.

[Rush Limbaugh]

jeez dude. we always head public welfare in post ww2 germany and it didnt destroy our society. our little country is still in the front row.

oops how did that happen, sorry.

[mongrel]

Welfare has devastated the Black community. It has ruined the black family. Obuma wants revenge and will now offer welfare to us white people

I thought it was the effects of segregation and a lack of civil rights until recent times. Have I missed something?

[Rush Limbaugh]

I thought it was the effects of segregation and a lack of civil rights until recent times. Have I missed something?

Most of the world it seems has gone by you while you were sleeping

Welfare is the new form of slavery or was until welfare reform came in. Paying women to have babies and throw the man out of the house has devastating effects on any family and community.

[Hetairoi]

I have seen the slums around Manila and Mexico city. I have seen the straving people of Somalia. They are truely impovrished. There is a difference between improverished and poor. Poor is the Iraqi rice farmer (he grows enough to eat and sell), the improvished are those who must dive into sewage for change, or dig through landfills to sell scrap metal.

Our problem with welfare, is that there is no requirement to improve yourself or your family's lot in life. No fixed time requirement, that you must obtain a job by such and such date. If they happen to get a job, they lose welfare. So working 40 hours at $6.25 (current minimum wage) nets $12K a year before taxes. Lets tak it a step further, $10hrly is $19.2K (before taxes), or $4.2K more than standard welfare. To get this money you must work 1,920 hours, and get a babysitter, and pay bus fare (or buy a car). This is less than the welfare check some get. No incentive to do anything, but collect the check.

The vast majority of welfare recipiants are just poor. Imagine if they had to live as a truely poor person for a year in the Philipines or Mexico. Do you think they would be complaining about not recieving enough "assisstance" when they get back? Some would probably still complain...

[morteduzionism]

It's not a black urban problem. Err... it is and it isn't. Because you are black does not mean you have a low cost of accepting welfare. It just so happens that being black correlates with a higher likelihood of accepting welfare. Why? For the reasons I stated above, your parents weren't well educated (the whole separate but equal thing that was rampant throughout the country), crack itself has done heavy damage to the black family and because of those two factors, making it big in an urban culture is more in line with being a local drug lord that nets 500k a year versus some celebrity out in hollywood or big time CEO in manhatten. Being white correlates generally with less of a likelihood of accepting welfare. Your parents were better educated in general, you don't have the crack gangs (although in the redneck neighborhoods meth does cause the same results that crack does in the black neighborhoods) and making it big is seen as those celebrities and ceos, not the "local" gang that is typically many more miles away and virtually unknown to alot of suburban kids.

...

So you think its ok to steal. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

You have issues.

[Rush Limbaugh]

You have issues.

At least I dont steal. You have issues.

But most of these people dont steal , their cowards, they have the government do it for them. Charity begins at home.

[morteduzionism]

At least I dont steal. You have issues.

But most of these people dont steal , their cowards, they have the government do it for them. Charity begins at home.

Who's stealing?[rhetorical question]

The reason I said you have issues, besides the other stuff you've posted, is because you're painting with a broad brush millions of people.

Why?

Is it physically painful for you to think deeply about an issue?

Do you suffer from Tourette's Disorder? You randomly say/type things?

Have you been so wounded that you're incapable of empathy?

As for the "stealing" accusation. Criminals break the law. Should credit cards, ATM cards, driver's licenses, etc be done away with because of identity theft?

Should guns be banned because someone breaks the law with one?

If not, why should public assistance be done away with because of the Nadya Suleman's of the country?

@Rush making a Communism connection...lol...I bet he thinks Communists were instrumental in Brett Favre's retirement too...lol

[JP226]

...

You are going to have to go beyond ...