Economy buildings

[4th Regiment]

I have mention this issue in few words some time ago but let’s go in some detail now

We all know this mod is suppose to be hard but building most of the economy buildings is just discouraging for investing because it will not repay you, at least until 100+ turns ( interest rate not included )) and some practically never...

Let’s go for example. Farming- land clearance give you no tax income. Only after you build 3 rd levels of farms you will gain some peanuts. So, you spent several thousands florins and around 10 turns for construction to gain like 20-30 income per turn? This is very discouraging for player. Mod should be hard but player should be motivated to build, so some $ should be gain (and it is realistic) even from land clearance and form 3rd level of farming and investing lot money and time in it, reward should be much more significant.

Similar goes for markets. Grain exchange and later organized market should give you significant tax income as it is real. On other hand, it should significantly decrease law, order, health and increase corruption since all kinds of smugglers, thieves and infections dieses comes with markets. In game, as it is today you will have some money only after you build market rights and merchant buildings after that - even that is only rewarding in some city with lot of expensive trade goods like in Constantinople.

Ports are somehow improved in latest patch with secured ports but it is still far from rewarding and realistic. In game now, player must build port (zero income), than secured port, all together 8 turns and to spent few thousands to gain usually around 20 or so income. Realistically, just having access to the cost should give you some, but basic, trade to near by coastal regions, like it is in real life. Building a port should increase this significantly but also decrease law, order, health and increase corruption like for markets. Only after building secured ports with port administrative buildings should decrease those problems (with no special tax bonus )

Also building dirt roads takes 6 turns now. There should be some income reward as it is realistic…

Hope you will take into account some of those suggestions because I do not see point investing in some of economy buildings. Instead player will just use that money for few law and happiness buildings and to raise army because looting a conquered city is best way of gaining $. So, it is deforming a game and game play.

PS. In Duress and Thessalonica region (I do not know for others) road tools and custom do not gain ANY income. I told you this once before but answer was to see if there is some negative effect which nullifies those buildings. No there was not.

[Morfans]

I totally agree with 4th Regiment.

This mod's economic framework is very (very) good - somewhat reminiscent of the beloved RTW Metro-Naval Mod of old - but the a.m. tweaks are truly necessary ...

[SicilianVespers]

I think we need to keep in mind the framework we are working in. This is the Dark/Middle Ages. This is the time of feudalism, and barter economies, etc... We shouldn;t apply modern expectation here.

Feudalism, by its nature is a drain on the economy, as the state is giving away its rights to local lords. So, those roads, farms, toll roads, etc.. are really going into your vassals coffers. If the income generated by provincial buildings is going toward the upkeep of military units, that is absolutely historical.

Even states like Sicily, which was very advanced in the early Middle Ages. The Monarchy lost its monopolies, as it was forced to give away rights to buy the loyalty of vassals.

Now if/when we tweak the economy building, you should to expect a MAJOR drain from the building of Market Rights, Stronhold Rights, and the Feudalization builidngs. Anywhere the Royal rights are being given away....you will lose money.

In reality, big money shouldn't come rolling in until advanced banking comes into play late in the game.

To get a full view of the ecomomic situation, you need to look at factions like Sicily, Byzantium, and the Muslim factions (the factions that start with huge cities). For example, the Norman Kings of Sicily made more income from Palermo, than their Anglo-Norman cousins made in the whole of England.

We probably will not see any more changes in this area, in the next patch. I want to get 3.3 out because, I need a break. I will take a good look at this for the patch after 3.3.

@morfans

a.m. = afore mentioned? I still haven;t finished my morning coffee, so I am a bit slow ths morning

Let’s go for example. Farming- land clearance give you no tax income. Only after you build 3 rd levels of farms you will gain some peanuts. So, you spent several thousands florins and around 10 turns for construction to gain like 20-30 income per turn? This is very discouraging for player. Mod should be hard but player should be motivated to build, so some $ should be gain (and it is realistic) even from land clearance and form 3rd level of farming and investing lot money and time in it, reward should be much more significant.

I read you post more carefully. This does not seem right. The farms generate farming income, and this is one of the easy ways to make money at lower levels.

My strategy is:

1st - Farming improvements. (most bang for the $$)
2nd - Grain exchange and Markets.
3rd - Ports, and Protected Anchorage.
4th - Trade rights (will not pay off until you have the aprotected anchorage)
5th - Market Rights, this will really open up trade.
6th - Build the more luxurious buildings

Roads take too longs to build early on, so I leave them for later when I have surplus $$.

I never have a $$ problem when I stick to this strategy.

[Morfans]

I see your points.

You may want to issue some more structured directions / guidelines and help motivated beginners like us to get it properly started ...

And, yes, a.m. = afore / above mentioned - sorry for being cryptic.

[DaVinci]

Well, the issue is that the average player counts/plays with vanilla approaches.

SV and me though have always the history (or the historical reality as far as we know them) in our mind when we mod.
The whole tech-tree and entire game-design offers those backgrounds to discover.
But it is for sure hard to understand for people going along the vanilla design - thus do not really consider the background goal/basements of the mod, and do not consider all the knowledge that went into it.

It is correct, that a mod background info text or mod guide would help out for certain things, but that might be the last priority, as long all the era campaigns are in development.

[4th Regiment]

I know it is Middle Ages but I gave you examples one by one.
I respect your efforts but I am everything but vanilla player. For example I have played EB for RTW which is hard and realistic, you have constant money shortages, but by carefull investing there, you will have some reward. But here, why should you build if income will go to your vassals anyway? Wasting money and time in those buildings is useless unless it is Constantinople or something and even in that case after you invest around 30 000 and turns and turns and turns of building…Anyway I wont repeat my self giving examples…It is up to you...

[DaVinci]

You are an average player though, and your "examples" and your firm belief and hurted emotions, that you express again here, confirms that (i remember your "examples" on battle-stats etc.).
This is no offense, but just a hint that you should think about your assumption that your game experience and knowledge is entirely correct, if mirrored by your examples, while you pack your thoughts into firm statements (and not into open suggestions or just points to discuss), that's your mistake if you communicate with very experienced modders. At least i get the impression that your "suggestions" are firm statements.

Besides the reasons we gave you already, there are a lot other things which have affects via the game engine/design due to buildings. You would know waht i mean, if you would consider the whole picture how the TW campaign game works (besides the cash flow, which you have not understood entirely, obviously). Again, here you try to implicate that your thoughts ("examples") are the truth and rule for everything. Actually, that's annoying. Besides this said, your points have a value, and of course here and there the tech-tree (was created mainly in 2007 by me, and not much touched since then) could get overhaules/ammendments. If you would know the long time of Chiv I TW's development (with x-times overhauled/ammended tech-tree versions), then you would know how long it needs to create a very well rounded tech-tree for every mod. Certainly here and there a few buildings could get changes. it is just a matter of available time and efforts.

A first priority has merely (and in this case we would have a problem needs a fix) in this regard: Does the AI construct certain buildings, just to develop their realms (and would they go bancrupt due to those buildings - not considered recruitment). And know, the AI normally wouldn't construct a building, that has no purpose or wouldn't give an advantage, as it acts after the engine (the program), ie. considers/understands also negative boni as negative, and thus the positives must win over the negatives or the AI wouldn't construct that.

And anyway, please tell me, that your income won't increase with the ongoing campaign, while you build up your economy structures - in case you state now, "yes, my cash-flow decreases when i construct buildings" (means developing settlements without to recruit, just in direct comparision), then you would be right with your statements, otherwise not. Edit: If you can give a reliable evidense, that constructions decrease the income during the campaign (in the whole sum), then we should ammend some conditions and capabilities (despite the idea of the "expensive" feudalism as background), and i assume there might be some cases ... but first then we will have a concrete task and discussion base. Now, this evidense will be hard to bring, because you would need to consider all in and outs of cash-flows for a settlement from the most poor start (ie. only the 1st tier core building with a minimum of population) to a a full developed settlement - and this must be set in relation to the entire realms (all settlements), incl. unrest/law/happiness, traits+ancs, etc. etc.

Edit: Reading again what i wrote, i might have been a bit too hardwith some comments, sorry. I don't wanna discourage you. It would just be easier to communicate with you if you would formulate and would react in a slight more objective and moderate way (also a tag less emotional if somebody won't agree with your thoughts), and not in a merely teaching way in certain sentences. At least i like to admit that your points are reasonable to a degree, so keep your suggestions coming in

[SicilianVespers]

I see your points.

You may want to issue some more structured directions / guidelines and help motivated beginners like us to get it properly started ...

We desperately need a good players guide, as there is somewhat of a learning curve with this mod.

And, yes, a.m. = afore / above mentioned - sorry for being cryptic.

Not a problem, I just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something

@4th Regiment

Your suggestions are being taken into account. I am just asking you to be patient, as there is alot involved concerning the balance, etc.. as DV pointed out.

Also, I would ask you, are basing your view on playing as Serbia? They have a VERY difficult starting position, having only one castle province to start with. There will be more economic devolopment in castle settlements, as there is a new building allowing a village/town/city to grow up around castles in the next release.

[4th Regiment]

As far as now, I have been playing (longer) campaigns with Serbia, Walachia, Latin Empire and Portugal

PS. One more suggestion - SV said you have problem with 500 units number limit. Because you have that stance that levies are just peasants given a cheep spear and wooden shield and called to arms you can delete “ordinary” fork armed peasants. It is also impossible that fork armed scum would decrease unrest in towns as garrisons (actually opposite). At least some basic military organized unit (as levies) is needed for garrisons. It was done in EB, so since you have several types of peasants it will free some of your unit slots.

PSS. Do not worry, even if I sounded like that, as you can see, I am not offended and I keep posting here ;-) , since my intention is to improve my favorite mod. Cheers !

[Knives]

I think we need to keep in mind the framework we are working in. This is the Dark/Middle Ages. This is the time of feudalism, and barter economies, etc... We shouldn;t apply modern expectation here.

Feudalism, by its nature is a drain on the economy, as the state is giving away its rights to local lords. So, those roads, farms, toll roads, etc.. are really going into your vassals coffers. If the income generated by provincial buildings is going toward the upkeep of military units, that is absolutely historical.

Even states like Sicily, which was very advanced in the early Middle Ages. The Monarchy lost its monopolies, as it was forced to give away rights to buy the loyalty of vassals.

Now if/when we tweak the economy building, you should to expect a MAJOR drain from the building of Market Rights, Stronhold Rights, and the Feudalization builidngs. Anywhere the Royal rights are being given away....you will lose money.

In reality, big money shouldn't come rolling in until advanced banking comes into play late in the game.

To get a full view of the ecomomic situation, you need to look at factions like Sicily, Byzantium, and the Muslim factions (the factions that start with huge cities). For example, the Norman Kings of Sicily made more income from Palermo, than their Anglo-Norman cousins made in the whole of England.

We probably will not see any more changes in this area, in the next patch. I want to get 3.3 out because, I need a break. I will take a good look at this for the patch after 3.3.

@morfans

a.m. = afore mentioned? I still haven;t finished my morning coffee, so I am a bit slow ths morning



I read you post more carefully. This does not seem right. The farms generate farming income, and this is one of the easy ways to make money at lower levels.

My strategy is:

1st - Farming improvements. (most bang for the $$)
2nd - Grain exchange and Markets.
3rd - Ports, and Protected Anchorage.
4th - Trade rights (will not pay off until you have the aprotected anchorage)
5th - Market Rights, this will really open up trade.
6th - Build the more luxurious buildings

Roads take too longs to build early on, so I leave them for later when I have surplus $$.

I never have a $$ problem when I stick to this strategy.

I just tried your strategy, with Wallachia(tara romaneasca) in Renaissance, starting off with a large town and a large city in a time where the feudal system was dieing. I go into debt after building grain exchange and markets (thats after farms) and it does not get much better after that (it gets worse) even the occassional 3000 from your nobles does not keep you from going more and more down into debt. (yes I am spamming trade rights as well), no unit production either(To even get a minimal ammount of income you end up having to not only disband the units you get as a reward but your starting units as well).

Removing troops and putting some in forts can give you some continual gain but it really should not be that hard for a self-sufficient community to keep itself from financially dieing.

I think the economy system works very well. I always find I'm in need of yet more money in this game even quite far advanced in it while not hindering me so much that I can't afford anything. This gives the mod a more realistic feel and constant challenges. Too much money makes conquest very easy.

I'll give you my own economic tip: If you build a fort on every province and put two heavy cavalry units in them then you essentially have a ready military defence force protecting each region for free. It's like real feudal service. If anyone attacks then you can just gather the cavalry from any nearby province and the supremacy of cavalry will usually ensure victory. Therefore you can fill up your settlements with free-upkeep levies to keep order and still have an effective defence system in place.

Thats a very helpful economic tip there, it is probably the only thing letting me keep even 4 cavalry without disbanding them (ofcourse buying the forts was very difficult taking many many many turns) and as you might have figured there has been, many many times I have not had money to spend on any building at all even for both settlements despite focusing entirely on economy. In regards to our serbia playing person and his small settlements he might have a point on how difficult it is for something small to survive economically. I can only imagine how painful playing Serbia would be with its one castle.

Might be a thing to consider.

Knives

[Emperor Basil]

I think the economy system works very well. I always find I'm in need of yet more money in this game even quite far advanced in it while not hindering me so much that I can't afford anything. This gives the mod a more realistic feel and constant challenges. Too much money makes conquest very easy.

I'll give you my own economic tip: If you build a fort on every province and put two heavy cavalry units in them then you essentially have a ready military defence force protecting each region for free. It's like real feudal service. If anyone attacks then you can just gather the cavalry from any nearby province and the supremacy of cavalry will usually ensure victory. Therefore you can fill up your settlements with free-upkeep levies to keep order and still have an effective defence system in place.

[DaVinci]

I always find I'm in need of yet more money in this game even quite far advanced in it while not hindering me so much that I can't afford anything. This gives the mod a more realistic feel and constant challenges. Too much money makes conquest very easy.

Exactly what a good tech-tree shall do. Thanks for the info that there are people who understand the quality of the done work.

[seal]

When I play some of the smaller faction, like Serbia or Aragorn, the first thing I do is eliminate the majority of the starting units, and then go after rebel territories, slowly rebuilding the army back up. If you don't eliminate some of those starting units, you'll get crushed in debt and end up with "Inspires Civil War" trait.

[SicilianVespers]

Actually, with the smaller factions, those starting units are for when they are AI controlled. The AI gets ther benefit of the money script, so it has an easier time economically.

Unless you are going to snatch a province on the first turn, I would disband what you don't need. Building forts is key as well. Knights were only required to serve about 40 days a year, so it is realistic to build the stone fort,s and use the free upkeep for your cavalry.

[seal]

I'll give that a try on my Poland campaign. I'm usually hesitant to build forts, but what the heck.

[4th Regiment]

Knives, I was playing few other factions, not only Serbia, as I said, but your experience is just what I have tried to explain and calculate in details for every type of the building.

You will not get your money, invested in economy, back before 100-200 turns, even that is questionable. Of course, it is in ideal situation when you have money to build, but because you won’t, it will take much more and you will spend turns and turns of the game just sitting there and doing nothing. In order to actually play the game and to enjoy the battles this mod force you to do the exactly opposite than it was intended by moders – blitzkrieg. Instead of spending thousand and waiting turns and turns to be repaid (actually never) it is better to use that money, raise the army and capture rebel/enemy city. You will get immanent reward of several thousands from looting, plus 1000+ in income from that city in every next turn, your neighboring towns will increase their trade income and you will get few free upkeep slots for units in that newly conquered city. I never understood that idea of disbanding the units. If you want to waste them, let them die in attempt to conquer the city, if nothing.
By habit, I still build some buildings to keep the game real, but simple math tell me the ultimate and unquestionable blitzkrieg is the best option for this mod. If you wan to play those “building" games, there are much better simulations for that on the market that it is Total War engine.

This is how game play of this mod actually works and feels for the gamer
…and I hope it will help moders if they want to change something...

[Knives]

I made a suicide blitzkrieg with Bulgaria once, did not work to well =) it was intended to kill off multiple units (which is did) but it failed to fight the ever growing debt

[Hunnis]

"My strategy is:

1st - Farming improvements. (most bang for the $$)
2nd - Grain exchange and Markets.
3rd - Ports, and Protected Anchorage.
4th - Trade rights (will not pay off until you have the aprotected anchorage)
5th - Market Rights, this will really open up trade.
6th - Build the more luxurious buildings"

I am really trying to go after your strategy, but i after one damn turn as Aragorn
i am on 600- :S and i am afriad of deleting my units, ;(

lol on turn 6 i have my two genarls town milta (frée up keep) and one milita crossbownmen, 2500- but my income is 98 florins.

[4th Regiment]

Knives, try "walk around" with generals as less as possible. When the general is outside the settlement scripting kicks in, and I forget the numbers, but I think if he is outside the settlement you will lose something like 2000, if he is at enemy territory 4000 and if he is performing siege, I think even 10 000 per turn. So, siege the settlement and when it is time to assault only than join the general with the army. Also, much better option (but dangerous) is to besiege with smaller force and to lure enemy to try to brake your siege…Of course, you must be good player and this bliz tactic is hazarderius in the beginning until you conquer few settlements…then you can relax little bit.

[SicilianVespers]

I believe the field costs are -500 in your lands, and -1000 in foreign land.