Guns on Campus

[jsktrogdor]

Recently someone wrote into my universities school paper, occasionally they publish someones letter to the editor. Well this particular person's letter was related to a recent story about concealed weapons on campus. Utah is the only state in the US in which concealed weapons are allowed at all public universities. The jist of the students letter was that he was tired of people complaining about the issue. The way he saw it, he could use his weapon to save someones life in the event of a school shooting, like the one at VT.

I thought... if Im ever held hostage by a school shooter and one of my classmates has a weapon on hand... I would like to ask them in advance to just go call the police please. I would prefer it if you kept your gun in your pants when my ass is on the line. What about you guys?


This is an article on the gun situation at Utah universities.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/20/cnnu.guns/index.html
and a great quote from it as well:

But state legislators could be moving in the opposite direction, considering a bill to modify current law to allow people in Utah -- including students -- to carry loaded weapons openly.
Utah State Representative Curtis Oda said the bill, which he is sponsoring, is merely to clarify that people with weapons permits may carry a gun openly or -- with a concealed permit -- they may hide it for the sake of surprise.

Who exactly are they surprising there Curtis?


EDIT: just for clarification

To get a permit to carry a concealed weapon, people in Utah must, among other things:

Be 21 years old

Have no criminal record of violent, immoral or substance-related crime

Be mentally competent.

[vizi]

Call the cops/better campus police/response time. Last thing I need is my peer failing his midterms and killing my teacher in a fit of rage and stupidity...unless I am also failing and could, you know, use the grief time...

Edit: Does no one make public polls? I would like to know who voted for what. This isn't the Curia, even though you should be telling people what you voted for there as well...

Edit2: Openly carry guns to class? What would they be doing? Waiting for a deer to run in front of the window?

[Hub'ite]

Worst idea ever. The last thing I want is drunken frat boys with guns. I'm all pro 2nd Amendment but this is ridiculous. You don't need to put guns in the hands of untrained college kids, it will only lead to accidental deaths or drunken shooting sprees.

[Cmdr_Sdxo]

Yeah, sure I want them to call the cops who'll arrive to the scene some 20 minutes or so later when the shooter has either killed me or I've fled the scene by then . The idea of civilians bringing guns to classroom isn't all that appealing either even though I support the 2nd Amendment..

Couldn't there just be armed guards in universities or something?

[boofhead]

Everyone walking about openly armed isn't freedom or safety, it's Afghanistan.

[hellheaven1987]

Number 2, seriously...

I only trust myself when I operate a firearm in civilized country (since I know I have training).

[Kiljan Arslan]

Everyone walking about openly armed isn't freedom or safety, it's Afghanistan.

So true!

[Admiral Piett]

When the hits the fan, you need to act fast for your as well as others' survival. I think this society suffers from the perspective of "let the government handle it" or "let the professionals handles this". This only feeds helplessness. While I would probably want to call the cops, they're often too late.

I don't know what I'd do in such a situation. I'd prefer to end it in a non-lethal manner.

[Hub'ite]

While I would probably want to call the cops, they're often too late.

They can't be everywhere at once. I'd go with armed guards on the campus. Give the guns to trained professionals.

[Admiral Piett]

They can't be everywhere at once. I'd go with armed guards on the campus. Give the guns to trained professionals.

Good point. Some security guards should be authorized to carry weapons. It would help prevent it from becoming a problem in the first place.

[MathiasOfAthens]

I'm afraid a lot of you are exagerating the issue or not as well informed of the rules here.

No law maker would write a law giving drunken frat boys the right to carry weapons onto campus. And Everyone would not be allowed to walk around openly with weapons like it was Afganistan.

There are armed guards in most Universities and College campuses.

The Law in Utah specifically requires Campuses to allow licensed concealed weapons to be carried on their grounds. Taking this into context that means you must have a license to conceal a weapon, not just to own a weapon. In order to even have a license in the first place you have to prove you can use the weapon safely.

25 colleges in this country allow students to bring concealed weapons onto campus but the weapons must be stored in a central location. Making that almost mute in itself.


Now about your poll mate. A School shooter will not be taking hostages no matter what you think, a school shooter is a shooter out to kill. Every school shooting there has never been one hostage taking because the shooter has no intention of bargaining with anyone.

So if you were stuck in a room with the killer approaching would you rather there be a student with a concealed weapon down the hall or for that student to instead call the police, realizing that by the time the police arrived you be dead. Face it cops cant be everywhere and when they do arrive they wont be charging in. Their first goal is to secure the scene creating a cornered off area.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Arm school children and you'll have 10,000 school children killed accidentally for every foiled gunman.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Arm school children and you'll have 10,000 school children killed accidentally for every foiled gunman.

Permit would allow handguns that carry perhaps 12-14 rounds per clip. How Lets say there were 30 students around when the gunman open fire. 4 of them had concealed weapons and took cover. Thats not 10,000 deaths.
________
Genie vapor

[removeduser_487563287433]

Permit would allow handguns that carry perhaps 12-14 rounds per clip. How Lets say there were 30 students around when the gunman open fire. 4 of them had concealed weapons and took cover. Thats not 10,000 deaths.

Let's say the school children with concealed weapons are children, and as such liable to do stupid things. That's 10,000 accidentally killed school children. This is hillbilly stupidity to an extreme.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Let's say the school children with concealed weapons are children, and as such liable to do stupid things. That's 10,000 accidentally killed school children. This is hillbilly stupidity to an extreme.

I absolutely agree with you, it would be hillbilly stupid to hand out firearms to children. Luckily there has never been a politician to ever consider doing that.

Considering that adult age begins at 18, but not neccessarily maturity, there has to be some other policies that states use to determine if someone is safe to carry a concealed weapon.

Policies
discretionary licensing,
non-discretionary licensing,
minimum age requirements (e.g., 18 or 21 years),
successful completion of an instructor-led course, and
marksmanship/handling qualification on a firing range.
.....to name a few.

The VT killer would never have gotten a concealed weapon permit, nor would the kids at columbine.

No one has proposed any law to give high school students guns, however, they have proposed giving teachers guns.

Also some states differentiate which types of weapons may be concealed, such as semi-auto and non-semi-auto.

More Guns, Less Crime is a book by Dr. John Lott that examines how violent crime rates change when states pass "shall issue" concealed carry laws. He presents the results of his statistical analysis of crime data for every county in the United States during 18 years from 1977 to 1994. The book expands on an earlier study published in 1997 by Lott and his co-author David Mustard in The Journal of Legal Studies.[1]
Lott also examines the effects of gun control laws, including the Brady Law.

Lott examines the effects of shall issue laws on violent crime across the United States.
His conclusion is that shall issue laws, which allow citizens to carry concealed weapons, steadily decrease violent crime. He explains that this result makes sense because criminals are deterred by the risk of attacking an armed victim. As more citizens arm themselves, the danger to criminals increases.

He does not propose arming every citizen, he only states that when criminals know that there may be armed people around then they would be less likely to commit a crime.

[Pickle_mole]

Arm school children and you'll have 10,000 school children killed accidentally for every foiled gunman.

we arent talking about elementary school, and where do you get this number? does anything factual back that claim up? We are talking about 25 yr olds on campus who probably have owned and operated guns fore more then 5 years if they have there concealed license.

[Yosemite]

no never give a weapon to anybody below 18 or 20

[jsktrogdor]

I suppose I should of highlighted this in my OP, ill go back and edit it in. This was from the article; the actual requirements for a concealed gun license:

To get a permit to carry a concealed weapon, people in Utah must, among other things:

Be 21 years old

Have no criminal record of violent, immoral or substance-related crime

Be mentally competent.

btw: that does include "drunken frat boys" but does not include "anybody below 18 or 20". So yes the drunken frat boys can have guns, but the school children cant... just to be clear.

[MathiasOfAthens]

I suppose I should of highlighted this in my OP, ill go back and edit it in. This was from the article; the actual requirements for a concealed gun license:




btw: that does include "drunken frat boys" but does not include "anybody below 18 or 20". So yes the drunken frat boys can have guns, but the school children cant... just to be clear.

There has never been an accident on a Utah School Campus so far, but you rather ban the guns just to be on the safe side.

Yes Frat boys do have the right to get drunk, but not to carry weapons around while they drink, whats your point, that they wouldnt know when to put the gun down when they start drinking? Thats ludicrious.

[jsktrogdor]

Thats ludicrious.

the technical definition is "a joke".


I do have a legitimate question though. Lets say a few brave students do have weapons and decide to use them in order to defend themselves and attack their assaulter(s).

Tell me which of the following people is the gunman and which one is the student:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

When the police arrive on scene how are they supposed to know which is the gunman? When the students are trying to escape the school, or hunt the actual gunman, how are they supposed to know who is the actual gunman and who is another armed student? Please elaborate, cause I doubt anyone is gonna take the time to stop and ask when there are a dozen people running around with guns.