Western culture? Who knows better...

[dogukan]

either I got it wrong or some of our European fellas are getting alien to their own culture.
West is as seen by most is made up of the advanced countries. Because western countries are the most experinced countries in many ways...and because they had their lucky times, be it natural resources, be it innovative people or the influence of ancients..etc

But why is western good? What is western? Why are they civilized?
That is as far as I know because of Greek democracy, Roman laws...the papaer Martin Luther put up on that church. The paintings of Leonardo...the architechture Medici created, the ships that has shown them the rest of the world(and eventually sucked the wealth of their subjects), the humanistic ideas that spread in the following years.
The innovation of enlightenment age...view of J.J Roussue on humanity...the freedom understanding of Montaigne...Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite...the flowers of French revolution. Atheism of Darwin, secularazation...tolerance. The results of the fights of the worker class in the 19th century. The classical music...the arts in west and all.

What came out of this? A tolerant, open-minded, innovative, secular, free society which's sole purpose is to make the world a better place. Caring for people and understanding them...am I wrong?
This is being western as far as I know...and that is the way I try to live.

If so a lot of westerns have become alien to their self-culture. Let's start with being proud of being western. It is completely normal. But whats with seeing yourself superior to others because of what your ancestors did? It doesn't make you better...it makes it easier to be better. And if you talk of it as the reaon of your awesomeness while ignoring the western ideals..I don't know what to say. But is is wrong.

The view of people on immigrants. It got too shallow. People tend to look at the surface of the problems which has nothing to do with being western. A lot of our "so-called western" forummites ignore this. Heck they adapt what west tried to got rid off because of what it caused in the past. Racism...the idea that makes you think you are superior to others. It is a very human thing, anybody would want to be praised in a way. But by ignoring the western ideals and claming you're better. Whats that?
I can understand the complains because of what immigrants do....and tehre can be many solutions to it while considering the rights of both immigrants and the locals.

Thinking that being western is something special to whites and Christians? I first of all do not thiik that the source of western advancement as religion. Heck I see it as something that slowed the progress like in any other culture.
Thinking that a Muslim, Hindu, pagan can not become and live like a western is ridicolous. Being western is not something ancestral. It's the way you live, way you see the rest of the world. Way you treat others. And this can be achived in any race and religion by education. And can be lost in any white Christian community through lack of these.


I hope you get my point. It's not about immigrants. It's about what western culture is....and finding out if people are getting more alien to it.

[Vince Noir]

But why is western good?

I'll assume you mean economically more devloped than other parts of the world. Otherwise I have trouble understanding the term "good." If so, that is very large question you ask. In terms of clear economic divide and based on higher average GDPs I would agree that the "West" is more economically developed than other parts of the world. I would contribute responsibility to religion and geography.

I say the former because relgion is one of the primitive experiences of a community/society. From Islam to Paganasim a sense of community occurs by reason of mutual experience with others. Where the religious sense of community and with it real trust and integrity can be destroyed then that society is like a sand castle unable to defend itself against the inexorable sea.

Evidently Weber explicates how religion helps to define motivation, religion actually helped to give rise to modern capitalism, particulary in observation to tha Calvansit movement. Capitalism arose in Europe in part because of how the belief in predestination was interpreted by everyday English Puritans. Puritan theology was based on the Calvinist notion that not everyone would be saved; there was only a specific number of the elect who would avoid damnation, and this was based sheerly on God's predetermined will and not on any action you could perform in this life. Official doctrine held that one could not ever really know whether one was among the elect.

In the latter I would like to quote Angus Maddison's reasonsing. Partly due to the obvious geogprahical positioning of resouces in which it is clear the West is abundant, and partly due to the socio-economic developments through the middle ages. The ending of feudal constraints on purchase and sale of property was followed by a whole series of developments which fostered entrepreneurship. Nondiscretionary legal systems protected property rights. The development of accountancy helped further in making contracts enforceable. State fiscal levies became more predictable and less arbitrary. The growth of trustworthy financial institutions and instruments provided access to credit and insurance, which made it easier to assess risk and to organise business rationally on a large scale over a wide area. Most of these changes had already occurred in Flanders and Northern Italy by the twelfth century.

A second distinctive feature was the emergence of a system of nation-states in close propinquity, which had significant trading relations and relatively easy intellectual interchange in spite of their linguistic and cultural differences. This stimulated competition and innovation. Migration to or refuge in a different culture and environment were options open to adventurous and innovative minds. The advent of printing and universities added to the ease of interchange.

The Western family system was different from that in other parts of the world. It involved controls over fertility and limited obligations to more distant kin. This reinforced the possibilities for accumulation.

The most fundamental change was the recognition of human capacity to transform the forces of nature through rational investigation and experiment. Changes in intellectual horizons occurred between the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, when medieval notions of a five thousand year old earth-centred universe were abandoned. They were replaced by a very different conception of time and space. Thanks to the Renaissance, the seventeenth century scientific revolution and the eighteenth century enlightenment, Western elites gradually abandoned superstition, magic, and submission to religious authority. The scientific approach gradually impregnated the educational system. Circumscribed horizons were abandoned. A Promethean quest for progress was unleashed. The impact of science was reinforced by the creation of scientific academies and observatories which inaugurated empirical research and experiment. Systematic recording of experimental results and their diffusion in written form were a key element in their success.

For the given reasons I believe the developments in Western Europe had no counterpart on other continents.

[Armfelt]

dogukan; I was expecting another anti-islamic rant, or history for 14-year old children, but was quite pleasantly surprised. I agree with most of your post.

I think more people should note the hypocrisy in setting different standards for immigrants and limiting their rights.

[PreussensGloria]

...the papaer Martin Luther King put up on that church.

You mean Martin Luther. Martin Luther King was someone else...


You miss the growing Islamisation in Europe, which is no imagination or hysteria but an alarming fact. Some people are just silly and stuck into their political ideologies or were socialised into blindness.
I don't know if you're a secular Turk, but in Europe radical Muslim organisations have come to significant power thanks to the leftist and good-mind fools, these radicals put a lot of pressure on the Muslim immigrants here in order to keep them in line, those organisations aren't banned because of pc and they follow a counter productive policy towards Integration, they want segregation. Our media and mainstream politicians are stuck in political correctness, ignoring the sorrows of the people.
People in Europe don't want to have huge mega-.mosques, where the Muslim youth gets indoctrinated. Every third mosque in Europe is named after Conquererors and Christian slayers, which also leaves a sour taste.
Despite the hate preaching, and all those disgusting crimes like "honor" killings and threats of terror attacks, Muslims statistically are the population group which are the less integrated (because of their own refusal), the most criminal and the less occuptional successfull ones compared to other immigrants (f.e. Chinese, North- and South-Americans, Japnese, Vietnamese, East-European, even people of sub-saharan Africa most of the time are better integrated and cause less problems).

No wonder that there are a lot of European twc members, which aren't that much in favour of Islam... they see what happens in their countries and they don't like what they see. All those good mind and leftists in here won't change it by calling them names and defaming them. Personally I don't give a for such pitiful personal attacks.

[dogukan]

You mean Martin Luther. Martin Luther King was someone else...


You miss the growing Islamisation in Europe, which is no imagination or hysteria but an alarming fact. Some people are just silly and stuck into their political ideologies or were socialised into blindness.
I don't know if you're a secular Turk, but in Europe radical Muslim organisations have come to significant power thanks to the leftist and good-mind fools, these radicals put a lot of pressure on the Muslim immigrants here in order to keep them in line, those organisations aren't banned because of pc and they follow a counter productive policy towards Integration, they want segregation. Our media and mainstream politicians are stuck in political correctness, ignoring the sorrows of the people.
People in Europe don't want to have huge mega-.mosques, where the Muslim youth gets indoctrinated. Every third mosque in Europe is named after Conquererors and Christian slayers, which also leaves a sour taste.
Despite the hate preaching, and all those disgusting crimes like "honor" killings and threats of terror attacks, Muslims statistically are the population group which are the less integrated (because of their own refusal), the most criminal and the less occuptional successfull ones compared to other immigrants (f.e. Chinese, North- and South-Americans, Japnese, Vietnamese, East-European, even people of sub-saharan Africa most of the time are better integrated and cause less problems).

No wonder that there are a lot of European twc members, which aren't that much in favour of Islam... they see what happens in their countries and they don't like what they see. All those good mind and leftists in here won't change it by calling them names and defaming them. Personally I don't give a for such pitiful personal attacks.

OOOPS sorry for the Martin Luther mistake. I recently wrote an essay about Dr. King...lol

Anyways, did I not sound like a secular one? I'm actually an atheists btw.

Besides my point is not immigration problems. Thats been taken into hand in a different topic. The point here is what being western is....and are westerns getting alien to their own advanced ways. Whether it be because of Muslims.....some even say ban Islam, which is completely unwestern.
So is it right for those who say such things to take pride in saying "I am western" when he/she shows no signs of that? When he/she is ignorants and shallow on the issues?

[Manco]

Dogukan, nice post, it mirrors many of my own opinions.

You mean Martin Luther. Martin Luther King was someone else...


You miss the growing Islamisation in Europe, which is no imagination or hysteria but an alarming fact. Some people are just silly and stuck into their political ideologies or were socialised into blindness.
I don't know if you're a secular Turk, but in Europe radical Muslim organisations have come to significant power thanks to the leftist and good-mind fools, these radicals put a lot of pressure on the Muslim immigrants here in order to keep them in line, those organisations aren't banned because of pc and they follow a counter productive policy towards Integration, they want segregation. Our media and mainstream politicians are stuck in political correctness, ignoring the sorrows of the people.
People in Europe don't want to have huge mega-.mosques, where the Muslim youth gets indoctrinated. Every third mosque in Europe is named after Conquererors and Christian slayers, which also leaves a sour taste.
Despite the hate preaching, and all those disgusting crimes like "honor" killings and threats of terror attacks, Muslims statistically are the population group which are the less integrated (because of their own refusal), the most criminal and the less occuptional successfull ones compared to other immigrants (f.e. Chinese, North- and South-Americans, Japnese, Vietnamese, East-European, even people of sub-saharan Africa most of the time are better integrated and cause less problems).

No wonder that there are a lot of European twc members, which aren't that much in favour of Islam... they see what happens in their countries and they don't like what they see. All those good mind and leftists in here won't change it by calling them names and defaming them. Personally I don't give a for such pitiful personal attacks.

Oh come on, this reads like a rightwing pamphlet. You got all the hip terms in there: leftists, islamisation, PC, indoctrination, segregation,...
You even prove your views with statistics! (ones that we'll never see though)

Are there problems with immigrants from muslim countries? Of course there are, simply because they are the source of most recent immigration to Europe and have lesser (or no) education and lower social standing. 50 years ago it were the Italians and Spanish, now it's the North Africans and Middle Easterners.
In true 'Western' style, we should combat the reasons for this and help them get educated and integrated, instead we get some stone age-reasoning that boils dowb to: 'Kick them out! This is my territory!'

[PreussensGloria]

OOOPS sorry for the Martin Luther mistake. I recently wrote an essay about Dr. King...lol

Anyways, did I not sound like a secular one? I'm actually an atheists btw.

Besides my point is not immigration problems. Thats been taken into hand in a different topic. The point here is what being western is....and are westerns getting alien to their own advanced ways. Whether it be because of Muslims.....some even say ban Islam, which is completely unwestern.
So is it right for those who say such things to take pride in saying "I am western" when he/she shows no signs of that? When he/she is ignorants and shallow on the issues?

It's good to still have secular Turks around, allthough as far as I know even in traditional secular Turkey (thanks to Kemal Attatürk), with the AKP in power islam grows and secularization is in decline in Turkey.
In Germany there are sociological and gender studies, which proove that Muslim immigrants in Germany changed over the generations, the first and second generation was less educated, but more secular and less violent, hardly Turkish women wore the headscarf in the 70ies, nowadays Turkish girls and women of the third immigrant generation, are some kind of reislamised, most of them wear the headscarf now, the secular ones are in decline. Europeans see the growing islamisation as a threat, this inner pressure also may change the face of the West. Our western attitudes and values may change, too, as some kind of self-defense. The whole world is about to change, not only because of the various new threats of this age, like terrorism (not new, but this threat has got a much bigger scale than previously), islamisation, economic crisis, global warming, pollution, shortage of oil... a lot of reasons, we'll see if the world and the "West" adjusts to the better or not, I doubt it.

Oh come on, this reads like a rightwing pamphlet. You got all the hip terms in there: leftists, islamisation, PC, indoctrination, segregation,...
You even prove your views with statistics! (ones that we'll never see though)

Are there problems with immigrants from muslim countries? Of course there are, simply because they are the source of most recent immigration to Europe and have lesser (or no) education and lower social standing. 50 years ago it were the Italians and Spanish, now it's the North Africans and Middle Easterners.
In true 'Western' style, we should combat the reasons for this and help them get educated and integrated, instead we get some stone age-reasoning that boils dowb to: 'Kick them out! This is my territory!'

Well those terms have their right, leftists, hysterical political correctness and segregation (parallel societies) exist, if the truth sounds like a rightwing pamphlet for you, it just shows me how much you are socialised into blindness.
You're wrong: Muslim immigrants in Europe weren't the most recent immigrants, they arrived about the same time as the Spanish, Italians, Greeks and others in the early 60ies. Maybe their low education and rural heritage from deep Anatolia were more obvious, because their culture was more different and non-European, but the Italians, Greeks and others were hardly educated, underclass and also came from rural areas, while the Muslims had the same chance as the Spanish, Italians or Greeks to become part of society - in fact the second generation was better integrated than the current third one of Muslim immigrants. In the meanwhile something happened in the parallel societies: Islamisation and hate preaching. Now don't tell me it's the fault of the West, or it's because of racism, f.e. Germany spends Billions of € annualy for integration, with meagre success. The muslim world changed the last decades, therefore our immigrants also changed. More education is the typical reflex of leftists, the poblem is, that these education and integration programs are refused and it doesn't help if at the same time after school courses of radical mosques are tolerated, where the Muslim youth gets indoctrinated. Another problem is that we have many quaters/city districts with high percentage of immigrants, which has got bad impact on integration.

On the statistics: first o all this is a computer game forum, second you can ask any German member in here, who follows the news, he will know the latest sociological study, which caused a lot of heated debates over here, while pc-press and mainstream politicians tried to put a gloss on the alarming results, third of what use would it be to post several German sources, newspaper articles and so on, if the majority won't understand it? Or do you imply that I lie?

[Copperknickers II]

The west works, the rest of the world doesn't, or if it does then it is at a serious cost. Simple as that.

[dogukan]

The west works, the rest of the world doesn't, or if it does then it is at a serious cost. Simple as that.

that ain't the point of the thread...the question is, are westerns following western values? Or are some people getting alien to it because of...say immigration/propoganda...etc

Apparently, many does not have an idea....but I realized that some are getting alien to western culture and still claming that they are western...and therefore superior. They claim themselves being western without respecting western values just for praising themselves.

[Copperknickers II]

Can you name an example of such behaviour?

[dogukan]

Can you name an example of such behaviour?

the prejudices of some members here...their intolarance against problems. It doesn't end there, they even think of banning things, nuking "enemies"...etc
I doN't need to specifically name forum members(I'm talking about real world anyways). But it true that racism is on the rise lately because of the problems caused by immigration. Action-reaction thing. But is it true? Being so shallow on these issues? Having these primiteve thoughts?