Found the HMS Victory (1744 British Warship)

[DAVIDE]

Wreck of renowned British warship found in Channel


TAMPA, Fla. – Deep-sea explorers who found $500 million in sunken treasure two years ago say they have discovered another prized shipwreck: A legendary British man-of-war that sank in the English Channel 264 years ago.
The wreckage of the HMS Victory, found below about 330 feet of water, may carry an even bigger jackpot. Research indicates the ship was carrying 4 tons of gold coins when it sank in storm, said Greg Stemm, co-founder of Odyssey Marine Exploration, ahead of a Monday news conference in London.
So far, two brass cannons have been recovered from the wreck, Stemm said. The Florida-based company said it is negotiating with the British government over collaborating on the project.
"This is a big one, just because of the history," Stemm said. "Very rarely do you solve an age-old mystery like this."
Thirty-one brass cannons and other evidence on the wreck allowed definitive identification of the HMS Victory, 175-foot sailing ship that was separated from its fleet and sank in the English Channel on Oct. 4, 1744, with at least 900 men aboard, the company said. The ship was the largest and, with 110 brass cannons, the most heavily armed vessel of its day. It was the inspiration for the HMS Victory famously commanded by Adm. Horatio Nelson decades later.
Odyssey was searching for other valuable shipwrecks in the English Channel when it came across the Victory. Stemm wouldn't say exactly where the ship was found for fear of attracting plunderers, though he said it wasn't close to where it was expected.
"We found this more than 50 miles from where anybody would have thought it went down," Stemm said. Federal court records filed by Odyssey in Tampa seeking the exclusive salvage rights said the site is 25 to 40 miles from the English coast, outside of its territorial waters.
A Ministry of Defense spokesman said Sunday the government was aware of Odyssey's claim to have found the Victory.
"Assuming the wreck is indeed that of a British warship, her remains are sovereign immune," he said on condition of anonymity in keeping with government policy. "This means that no intrusive action may be taken without the express consent of the United Kingdom."
He would not say whether the government had begun talks with Odyssey over the future of the find.
Newspapers of the day and other historical records analyzed by the company indicated that the Victory sank off the Channel Island of Alderney near Cherbourg, France. A 1991 British postage stamp depicts the Victory crashing on the rocks there. Pieces of the ship had washed up in various places, but its final resting place remained a mystery.
The belief that the Victory had crashed onto the rocks had marred an otherwise exemplary service record of the ship's commander, Sir John Balchin, and a lighthouse keeper on Alderney was prosecuted for failing to keep the light on. Odyssey believes the discovery exonerates both men.
"As far as the family is concerned, it is an astonishing revelation," said Robert Balchin, a 66-year-old British university administrator and direct descendant of the commander. "It's as if he's sort of come alive again.
"When I went to see this extraordinary find of the cannon with the coat of arms of the king on the side, it was really a wonderful feeling to know that Sir John Balchin saw that every day, and it brought a very special communion with the past."
The HMS Victory was returning from Lisbon, Portugal, and was probably transporting 100,000 gold Portuguese coins for merchants, according to Odyssey's research. The ship had sailed there to help rescue a Mediterranean convoy blockaded by the French in the River Tagus at Lisbon.
The wreck site is roughly 70 feet by 200 feet and littered with other debris, Odyssey said. Its research ship, Odyssey Explorer, is equipped with a remote underwater robot capable of carefully removing the smallest of items from the bottom and shooting high-resolution photos and video.
The company's work on the Victory is the subject of an upcoming Discovery Channel TV show.
Odyssey, a publicly traded corporation, announced in May 2007 that it had raised 17 tons of silver coins from an Atlantic Ocean shipwreck. The company later said it believed the wreck to be the Spanish galleon Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes y las Animas, which sank off Portugal in 1804.
Shortly afterward, the Spanish government sued Odyssey in federal court in Tampa to claim the treasure, arguing that the shipwreck was never abandoned by Spain. The case is pending.
Some in the Spanish government have called the company 21st-century pirates, and twice in the months after the 2007 announcement, ships from Spain's Civil Guard seized Odyssey ships off the Spanish coast. Both ships and their crews were released within a week.
The company's relationship with the British government has been more cordial. Odyssey had already negotiated an agreement with British officials regarding the search for the HMS Sussex, which sank in the western Mediterranean in 1694 with gold coins aboard.


In this photo released Sunday, Feb. 1, 2009 by Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc., the Odyssey Explorer's ROV takes a photo of a Bronze cannon on the shipwreck site of HMS Victory bearing the royal crest of King George I, in the English Channel. Florida deep-sea explorers who found $500 million in sunken treasure two years ago say they have discovered another prized shipwreck: the legendary British man-of-war that sank in the English Channel 264 years ago. Odyssey Marine Exploration hasn't found any gold this time, but it's looking for an even bigger jackpot. The company's research indicates the HMS Victory was carrying 4 tons of gold coins.


In this photo released Sunday, Feb. 1, 2009 by Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc., the Odyssey Explorer's ROV measures the bore hole of a 42-pound bronze cannon on the shipwreck site of HMS Victory, in the English Channel. Odyssey Marine Exploration is looking for the HMS Victory. The ship, a legendary British man-of-war that sank in the English Channel 264 years ago, was carrying 4 tons of gold coins that could be worth considerably more than the treasure that Odyssey raised from a sunken Spanish galleon in 2007, co-founder Greg Stemm said ahead of a news conference set for Monday in London.





Source: Associated Press

[Rootsie]

Firstly, it sould belong to the UK as it is our ship.

Secondly, I would like it to remain at the bottom of the ocean. After-all it is a grave for several hundred British sailors.

[removeduser_487563287433]

May contain £1bn worth of gold.

Bet Gordon Brown can't believe his luck.

[Markas]

Pity a bunch of Treasure-Hunters found it. Ah well.

[eldaran]

Pity a bunch of Treasure-Hunters found it. Ah well.

However, it still remains the property of the crown. Just because it sank a long time ago doesn't mean it can be 'pillaged' for its treasure, though i'm sure the finders will recieve a decent amount from it.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Pity a bunch of Treasure-Hunters found it. Ah well.

An English ship in English territorial waters in the midst of a recession. Woe to the treasure hunters. Or theives as will we now paint them.

[Markas]

An English ship in English territorial waters in the midst of a recession. Woe to the treasure hunters. Or theives as will we now paint them.

I've already tightened my lynching rope and organised the Townsfolk so... yeah. Too late to turn back now.

[DAVIDE]

hope the coins/gold must be collected into a national museum, in england, and the wreck ship must lie forever underwater

[Copperknickers II]

I was getting excited for a minute, until i realised that it wasn't actually the HMS victory, just some sister ship with the same name.

[eldaran]

Well, the Napoleonic HMS Victory is quite easy to find really...just go to Portsmouth and, well...voila

[DAVIDE]

US firm seeks 'immediate' access to British warship treasure


LONDON (AFP) – The US firm which claims to have discovered one of the greatest British warships ever lost at sea said Monday it was seeking "immediate" permission to begin recovering artefacts from the wreck.
Florida-based Odyssey Marine Exploration said it discovered the final resting place of the HMS Victory last year in the English Channel and notified the British Ministry of Defence as soon as the team concluded it was the man-of-war which sank in a storm in 1744 with a crew of 1,150.
The exploration company said it was negotiating a collaboration agreement with the British government, which claims sovereignty over the ship thought to have been the most impressive war vessel of its time.
"The money is not as important as the cultural and historical significance of the discovery. It is a monumental event, not only for Odyssey but for the world," Greg Stemm, Odyssey's chief executive officer, told a news conference in London.
"It is probably the most significant shipwreck find to date. HMS Victory was the mightiest vessel of the 18th century and the eclectic mix of guns we found on the site will prove essential in further refining our understanding of naval weaponry used during the era," he added.
Odyssey said it feared the wreck was suffering substantial damage from natural erosion and extensive trawler-fishing and its contents could be lost unless they were brought to the surface as soon as possible.
The Victory's archeological treasures are prized by salvagers because they are believed to include 100 brass cannons, thought to be engraved with dolphins and the monogram of King George II, and a substantial amount of gold and silver.
"Rather than staying frozen in time beneath the waves, this unique shipwreck is fading fast," marine archaeologist Sean Kingsley, director of Wreck Watch International, said in a statement from Odyssey.
"The Victory lies in an area of intensive trawling, and her hull and contents are being ploughed away by these bulldozers of the deep day in, day out."
Odyssey said it found the wreck 100 metres (330 feet) under the English Channel, nearly 100 kilometres (62 miles) from the Channel Islands site where the ship was historically believed to have been wrecked in a violent storm.
Jason Williams, executive producer of JMW Productions, which filmed the discovery, said: "Reports from the time say that the ship was carrying four tonnes of gold, around 400,000 sterling, which it picked up from Lisbon on its way to Gibraltar.
"Today this has a bullion value of 125 million pounds, but that is just its raw weight. That means it is worth about a billion dollars."




source: yahoo news




Intrepid treasure-hunters – or archaeological vandals?

A marine exploration company has found HMS Victory's remains. But not everyone is pleased


At 3.30pm on 4 October 1744, the Royal Navy flotilla accompanying HMS Victory caught what was to be their last glimpse of their flagship as it drifted over the horizon in stormy seas off the Channel Islands. Laden with four tons of Portuguese gold, the pride of the British navy – and direct predecessor to Admiral Nelson's vessel of the same name – sank with all 1,150 of its crew. Only the shattered remains of its top-mast were found on a Guernsey beach as evidence of its terrible fate.
But yesterday the ability of that majestic and – for its time – technically advanced man-of-war to evoke dreams of vast riches was revived when an American treasure-hunting company announced that it had found the Victory and is planning to salvage its precious cargo from the depths of the English Channel.

Archaeologists accuse the Florida-based Odyssey Marine Exploration of combining hi-tech surveying methods with commercial ambition. They have also attacked the Ministry of Defence for "indulging in hypocrisy", after it emerged that the ministry is in negotiations with Odyssey to share the proceeds. If all the bullion being carried by the Victory is recovered, it is estimated that it could be worth as much as £700m.
To its supporters, Odyssey is a reputable, publicly listed company that follows strict archaeological guidelines in a legitimate search for sunken vessels around the globe.
But its detractors, ranging from leading archaeological bodies to the Spanish government, claim the treasure hunters hide behind a veneer of scientific probity as they harness technology to profit from the world's sunken heritage.
"If Odyssey is allowed to go ahead with this operation, it will cause uproar," said Mike Williams, a specialist on maritime law at the University of Wolverhampton and secretary of the Nautical Archaeology Society. "There are very hard questions to be answered about whether these sites should be recovered, and in particular whether the British government should be sanctioning that recovery."
Odyssey is already locked in a bitter legal dispute with the Spanish authorities over 500,000 gold and silver coins recovered from a wreck it has labelled Black Swan, and which Madrid insists is the Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes, a treasure-laden Spanish frigate sunk in 1804.
Odyssey unveiled its latest find at press conferences held simultaneously in London and New York yesterday. It revealed it had recovered a four-ton bronze cannon emblazoned with the crest of George I – a weapon that only the Victory, the last Royal Navy vessel to be armed entirely with bronze guns, was allowed to carry.
The company, which threw a veil of secrecy over its operations after the find last May, claimed the wreck is vulnerable to fishing trawlers and unscrupulous salvagers and that urgent action is therefore needed to recover the remaining 39 cannons, worth at least £30,000 each, and other "items of value". Odyssey has declined to state whether it has found any of the Portuguese bullion.
Greg Stemm, a former advertising executive who is Odyssey's CEO, said the value of the goods on board the Victory was secondary to the historical importance of the find: "HMS Victory was the mightiest vessel of the 18th century and the eclectic mix of guns we found on the site will prove essential in further refining our understanding of naval weaponry used during the era."
Under international law, the wreck and its contents remain the property of the Government. The Independent understands that Odyssey is in negotiations with the Ministry of Defence to strike an agreement on similar lines to a deal signed in 2002 following the discovery of the remains of another Royal Navy gunship, the HMS Sussex, which sank off Gibraltar in 1694 with £300m-worth of gold on board. Under the terms of that deal, Odyssey gets a sliding share of the proceeds from the sale of any recovered property, up to £250m.
But archaeologists and lawyers said yesterday that a similar deal for HMS Victory would amount to the abandonment of Britain's obligations under Unesco's Convention on the Protection of the Underwater Cultural Heritage, a convention which in 2005 the Government agreed to respect, without formally signing it.
Dr Williams said: "For the Ministry of Defence to now enter into a deal to recover the remains of HMS Victory would be to indulge in hypocrisy.
"The annexe to the convention makes it clear that a site should be left undisturbed wherever possible – as this one has been for 265 years – and that if artefacts are recovered they should not be used for commercial sale. At the same time, there is a public education campaign, funded by the Government, which seeks to tell anyone diving on a wreck never to remove anything from it. If they then exploit the Victory it will mean the complete dilution of that message."
Odyssey said it was abiding by stringent archaeological guidelines and retained the right to seek financial reward for its work.
Mr Stemm said: "Odyssey, not the taxpayer, spends its own money on the archaeological side of things. Once the entire collection is properly accounted for, it is handed over to the Government. At that point it is up to the Government to decide how to compensate us."
The company's stance was defended by Sir Robert Balchin, a direct descendent of Sir John Balchin, a much-revered 18th-century admiral who went down with the Victory in 1744, and who was blamed for sailing the ship on to rocks off Alderney.
The location of the wreck, which is being kept secret, shows that it did not founder because of navigational error.
A former director of St John Ambulance, Sir Robert said: "I can't tell you what I felt when I saw that cannon. It was as if a piece of not just my family history, but national history, had come alive again. I am very clear that the artefacts that are down there should be brought up from the deep. [They] will add enormously to our knowledge of Britain's 18th-century navy."

Odyssey wrecks

Black Swan
A colonial-era galleon discovered in the Atlantic in 2007 with 17 tons of silver and gold coins, which were flown out of Gibraltar to Florida. The Spanish government has since filed a claim that the Black Swan is in fact its own vessel Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes, and demanded the return of the treasure. Odyssey disputes the claim.
HMS Sussex
The Royal Navy ship sank off Gibraltar in 1694 with up to 10 tons of gold coins on board, making it one of the most valuable wrecks ever. Odyssey signed a deal with the Government to recover the bullion, but Spain's authorities have prevented it from returning to the site.



source: the indipendent




Treasure Hunters Say They’ve Found a 1744 Shipwreck

Sea explorers probing the depths of the English Channel have discovered what they say is a legendary British warship that sank in a fierce storm in 1744, losing more than 900 men and possibly four tons of gold coins that could be worth $1 billion.
The team found the wreckage of the warship, the H.M.S. Victory, last year and confirmed its identity through a close examination of 41 bronze cannons visible on the sandy bottom, Gregory P. Stemm, head of the discovery team, said Monday at a news conference in London.
The team lifted two of the cannons from the seabed and gave them to the British Defense Ministry, he said. The team’s leaders are now negotiating with British authorities on the disposition of the artifacts and treasure before the divers attempt further recoveries.
“I’m surprised we’ve been able to keep it under wraps for nine months,” Mr. Stemm said at the news conference, calling the shipwreck “a momentous discovery.” He is the chairman and chief executive officer of Odyssey Marine Exploration Inc. of Tampa, Fla., a publicly traded company that specializes in deep-sea exploration and recovery.
In a telephone interview, Mr. Stemm said the discovery, made far from the ship’s believed resting place, was “hard to beat” in terms of raw history, lost treasure and solved mysteries. He said the find cleared the name of the warship’s commander, Adm. Sir John Balchin, whose navigation had been impugned after the catastrophic loss.
The news conference was held by the Discovery Channel, which plans to show a segment about the ship on Thursday on its weekly program “Treasure Quest,” which had its debut last month.
The Victory was armed with as many as 110 bronze cannons, making it one of the deadliest vessels of the age. The largest cannon weighed four tons and could fire cannonballs of 42 pounds — making it the most powerful gun then used in naval warfare.
In July 1744, the flagship Victory and a fleet of warships were sent to rescue a Mediterranean convoy blockaded by a French fleet at Lisbon. After chasing the French away, the Victory escorted the convoy as far as Gibraltar and then headed home.
A furious gale scattered the British fleet shortly after it entered the English Channel, and on Oct. 5, 1744, somewhere off the Channel Islands, Victory went down with all hands. The flagship was the only vessel of the returning British fleet lost at sea.
The belief spread that the ship had grounded on the Casquets, a group of rocky islets west of Alderney that protrude a few dozen feet above the water line. The rocks are called the graveyard of the English Channel. The lighthouse keeper of Alderney was charged with failing to keep its lights on at the time of the ship’s disappearance.
A month after the loss, a Dutch newspaper reported that Victory had been carrying from Lisbon £400,000 destined for Dutch merchants. At the news conference, the ship’s finders said that would amount to about four tons of gold coins.
In the history of the Royal Navy, Victory was the last warship to be lost with a complete set of bronze cannons. Their high cost eventually prompted the British Admiralty to replace them with iron cannons.
For two decades, Mr. Stemm and his colleagues have probed the deep sea, using sonar and robots to discover scores of interesting wrecks and thousands of artifacts. They have found treasures valued at hundreds of millions of dollars.
Last April, the Odyssey team was exploring the English Channel when its sonar registered an intriguing blip. Investigations with a tethered robot showed the seabed covered with cannons, hull remains, iron ballast, two anchors, rigging, a copper cooking kettle and 41 bronze cannons, including 8 of the four-ton guns.
“These were the biggest cannon in the age of sail,” Mr. Stemm said at the news conference. “These things are huge — simply amazing.”
Odyssey released a 46-page analysis of the wreckage. It said the distinctive cannons — many of which display royal arms surmounted by a crown — revealed their nationality and date of manufacture, and gave proof of the wreck’s identity. The powerful guns, the analysis added, made Victory “the pre-eminent warship of the age.”
At the wreck site, the Odyssey team also found human bones, including what appeared to be a rib bone, a skull and other remains. None were recovered, the analysis said, and the team’s robot carefully reburied any that had been uncovered.
Odyssey is keeping secret the exact location of the wreck, but the company said Victory was found beyond the territorial waters of Britain and nearly 62 miles from where the ship was believed to have gone down near the Channel Islands.
At the news conference, Jason Williams, a television producer for the Discovery Channel, said four tons of gold coins would fetch about $125 million if melted down or $1 billion if sold for their historical value.
Mr. Stemm of Odyssey Marine thanked the British authorities for their cooperation with the company “in the face of complicated issues” of wreck handling and disposition.
In the proposed agreement, Odyssey would get either a percentage of the value of the artifact collection, or a percentage of the coins or other duplicate artifacts that the British government judged to be surplus.
The company has a history of collaboration with the British Defense Ministry. It has cut a deal to recover the suspected wreck of the Sussex, a British warship that sank in the Mediterranean in 1694 with a cargo of coins that may be worth billions of dollars.
Asked at the news conference when the team might return to Victory’s resting place, Mr. Stemm said it depended on the Defense Ministry. But he expressed a sense of urgency, calling the underwater site “virtually impossible to protect from trawlers.”

Source: ny times

The HMS Victory, Famed Shipwreck, Is Found

Under swirling clouds, its four-story hull illuminated by lanterns tied to its masts, the massive warship sinks beneath the waves. For more than two centuries, Peter Monamy's dramatic painting was one of the few images available of the tragic end of HMS Victory, which mysteriously disappeared, along with its crew of 1,100 men, one stormy night in 1744. Now, however, shipwreck salvage company Odyssey promises to fill out the picture. On Feb. 2, the Florida-based company announced it had recovered the Victory's remains.
"This is the most significant shipwreck discovery in history," says Odyssey president Greg Stemm. "It's the solution to one of the most intriguing naval mysteries in history, it went down with the most famous admiral of his time, it has the largest collection of bronze cannon in the world onboard and research suggests that it has one of the largest shipments of gold and silver that will likely ever be found on a shipwreck."(Read an interview with two Titanic wreck divers.)
There's the rub. As Odyssey has discovered before, where there is gold and silver, there is likely to be controversy as well. The publicly traded firm has repeatedly provoked the ire of archaeologists who complain that Odyssey is more interested in profit than in protecting historically valuable artifacts. Currently, the company is locked in a court battle with the country of Spain over ownership of the remains of a ship that experts believe to be the 17th-century Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes.
Built in 1737, the HMS Victory (a later version would be commanded by Admiral Nelson) was, in its day, the most powerful warship in the Royal Navy. In 1744, it was part of the fleet, commanded by war hero Admiral John Balchin, that broke through a French blockade of the Tagus river at Lisbon. Returning to England, a fierce storm hit the fleet, first separating the Victory from the other ships, and then sinking it, reportedly near the Channel Islands. The 1,100 sailors on board, as well as the sons of some of Britain's most prestigious families who had signed on for the merchant adventure, disappeared at sea.
After years of exploration, Odyssey located the wreckage about 62 miles (100 km) from the site where public opinion has long held that the Victory went down. That location, according to Stemm, helps clarify why the ship sank. "If it had run aground on the Casquets [an outcropping of rocks in the Channel], as historians have believed for over 250 years," he says, "it would have been because of a navigation error because the Casquets were far south of where the ship should have been. Since it obviously foundered in deep water, with a very experienced crew — it was almost certainly the construction of the ship that caused the loss."
For Admiral Balchin's descendants, the discovery comes as a wonderful surprise — and vindication. "For 12 generations we have wondered what really happened," says Sir Robert Balchin. "This astonishing find has brought it all back to life for us."
Not everyone is so enthusiastic, however. Dr. Jon Adams, director of the Centre for Maritime Archaeology at the University of Southampton worries that site preservation and scientific knowledge will be sacrificed in Odyssey's quest to unearth valuables. "I don't think they're the best people to be conducting this retrieval," he says. "They're in business to make money from what they find beneath the sea. They're basically treasure hunters."
Odyssey defends itself against those charges by noting that it hires experienced archaeologists for its expeditions, and observing that only commercial archeology has the resources to carry out expensive, time-consuming exploration. As for treasure, well, thus far the only booty recovered from the Victory are two cannon, including a historically valuable 42-pounder etched with the crest of George I. But according to one contemporary newspapers account, there was £400,000 of gold on board, not an unusual amount in a time when warships acted as the Brinks armored trucks of their day.
That gold could prove controversial. In 2002, Odyssey negotiated an agreement with the British government to share the value of any retrieved artifacts from a shipwreck believed to be the HMS Sussex. At the time, historians and archaeologists were outraged that the 'spoils' from the historically significant site would be divided and put in private hands, an outrage only increased by Odyssey's practice of selling artifacts individually in order to fund its expeditions. Noting that every coin is carefully catalogued so that no information is lost, Stemm defends the practice. "Selling these coins to pay for the archaeology and to save these shipwrecks from destruction is much better than asking taxpayers to foot the bill."
This time around, Odyssey again expects the British government to see things the same way, and is currently negotiating with the country's Ministry of Defence. But because Britain in 2005 adopted UNESCO's patrimony guidelines as 'best practice,' a Sussex-style agreement would come loaded with inherent conflict. "There's the problem, isn't it?" says Sarah Dromgoole, professor of maritime law at the University of Nottingham. "They should ensure that any agreement is in compliance with UNESCO guidelines, and that includes ensuring that a cultural heritage site is maintained intact."
That may be why Odyssey is hedging its bets this time around. In a press release, the company notes that the U.K. would retain the right to maintain intact any collection of artifacts, and may compensate the finders not with actual booty, but with payment for their value. James Goold, the attorney representing the Spanish government, finds the change interesting. "From my point of view, Odyssey is admitting what it knew all along but ignored in the case of Spain, which is that it can't claim sovereignty over a sovereign nation's possessions. Maybe they've learned a lesson."
Still, even if the gold controversy is resolved, the Victory presents one more twist that the Mercedes, at least so far, has not: Odyssey has discovered human remains at the site. In compliance with UNESCO guidelines that urge respect for gravesites, the company says its robotic diver re-buried the unearthed bones. Yet Sir Robert Balchin hopes they don't stay that way. "My own view is that the human remains should be brought up and properly buried on land," the Admiral's descendant says. "I think it's what John Balchin would have wanted."
As for his own interests, Sir Robert says he has none beyond preserving the memory of his ancestor, and would turn over any of the Admiral's belongings that might be recovered to a museum. "Of course," he adds thoughtfully, "if they wanted to give me a small bit of wood from the hull, I should be thrilled."


source: time.com


Shipwreck Mystery Must be Aired

It has all the makings of a suspenseful swashbuckler: a mysterious ship, sunken treasure, the threat of midnight raids and the pillaging of priceless cultural artifacts. But the ongoing struggle between American shipwreck salvage company Odyssey Marine and the Spanish government has instead become a classic courtroom drama. On Thursday, a U.S. District court in Tampa, Floridam ruled that Odyssey Marine must reveal to Spain all the information it possesses that could help identify three historic shipwrecks, including the one Odyssey has code-named, with appropriate flourish, the Black Swan. The sunken ship, which Madrid suspects was Spanish, has been sharply disputed since April, when Odyssey filed claim to the wreckage and then hauled up — and moved to an undisclosed storage facility near its Tampa headquarters — 17 tons of silver coins and other treasure, which some experts have valued at $500 million.
In the months since, the salvage firm has offered few clues about the Black Swan's identity or exact location, admitting only that preliminary investigations suggest the ship dates from the 19th century, and that the wreck lies 100 miles west of the Straits of Gibraltar, some 1100 meters down in international waters. "We have already made it clear that there are valuable artifacts at these different sites," says Odyssey CEO Greg Stemm, "so it is absurd to expect us to release any information that could give clues that might lead to an illegal midnight raid to steal the remaining artifacts. It's only common sense to do everything possible to protect the sites."
Odyssey's secrecy has fueled the suspicions of Spain's government, however, which fears that a valuable piece of its cultural patrimony has been exploited by a for-profit company. In July and again in October 2007, the Spanish civil guard and navy, following local court orders, detained and searched Odyssey ships as they attempted to leave their docks in Gibraltar. The detentions sparked intense media scrutiny, with much of the Spanish press expressing outrage over Odyssey's "pillaging" and some international publications decrying what they consider Spain's strong-arm tactics. Since then, Spain's Ministry of Culture has taken steps to better protect the dozens of shipwreck sites that lie off its coast as relics of Spain's golden age in the 16th and 17th centuries, when its galleons ruled the seas.
The Tampa court decided that Odyssey has 14 days to turn over all data regarding the Black Swan's identity and location and must permit Spain to inspect the artifacts it has recovered. That ruling levels the playing field before a civil trial in Tampa again next October, which will decide who owns the Black Swan site, and what percentage of the recovered treasure belongs to the salvagers. Although Odyssey's earlier court petition sought to restrict what information it released and to whom, the company says it got what it wanted from Thursday's ruling. "We are pleased that a confidentiality agreement will now be in place so that we can share information with Spain about the sites — it's all we have been asking for," says Stemm. "Hopefully, Spanish authorities will no longer believe the false and misleading information that has made its way into the press, and they will see the archaeological care we have taken on these sites as well as the difficulty in confirming their identities."
Spain, however, considers the ruling an unequivocal victory. "We're very pleased the court ruled in our favor," says James Goold, the attorney representing the Spanish government. "It shows that the court recognizes the need to move quickly to establish the identity of the ship." Perhaps more important, in his view, it also bodes well for the trial to come. "With this decision, we see that the court respects the cultural patrimony of a country like Spain."



source: time.com

[Georgy Zhukov]

Well, the Napoleonic HMS Victory is quite easy to find really...just go to Portsmouth and, well...voila

Thats what I thought for a moment "Isnt the Victory sitting safely in harbor"

[Ramashan]

In order to have the salved property returned, the owner must either pay for the salvage services, reach an agreement to do so, or otherwise post some security to protect the salvor's interest. If no agreement between the salvor and the owner of the salved property can be reached, the salvor must bring a complaint in admiralty court to establish his/her right to a salvage award.

This is what I could find on salvage rights. It seems unfair (like the world is fair) that those responsible for the find and salvage operation should go unrewarded or compensated. In this case the British government would cover their expenses and perhaps give them a percentage of the find.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Its aimed at protecting royal treasures from bandits and treasure hunters who would normally just steal.

This is completely fair seeing how the HMS is no different than a modern day carrier. Were a Carrier to be sunk you would expect the UK and USA to want to keep what they have onboard.

Remember the Ship belongs to the country and the UK is still around.
________
Child health forums

[DAVIDE]

Its aimed at protecting royal treasures from bandits and treasure hunters who would normally just steal.

This is completely fair seeing how the HMS is no different than a modern day carrier. Were a Carrier to be sunk you would expect the UK and USA to want to keep what they have onboard.

Remember the Ship belongs to the country and the UK is still around.

i think u're right.. ship belongs to England but it's also a patrimony of humanity. So hope england will bring the whole artifacts to a national museum

[MathiasOfAthens]

Which Im sure she will and I hope she does. It would be bad PR to do otherwise and wouldnt fit with the trend that usually happens to savaged artifacts.

Id rather see a reconstruction of this ship on display. But that early post with the real HMS Victory beats that.
________
Herbalaire review

[DAVIDE]

i agree

[eldaran]

I'm sure what will happen is that anything with historical or cultural significance will be retained by the British govt, to be given to the British museum (as happens when 'treasure' is found on land). This will likely include pretty much anything that's recovered. The finders will probably be paid the equivalent of the items current market value, which im sure they will be more than happy with, especially if it's all worth as much as they reckon it might be.

The only other thing i'd like guaranteed is that any Human remains found would be left where they are, as the wreck is after all the final resting place of over 1000 men and children. At the very least, if they do decide to 'recover' any remains, it would only be right to give them a decent Christian burial back on land.

[Otherside]

I'm sure what will happen is that anything with historical or cultural significance will be retained by the British govt, to be given to the British museum (as happens when 'treasure' is found on land). This will likely include pretty much anything that's recovered. The finders will probably be paid the equivalent of the items current market value, which im sure they will be more than happy with, especially if it's all worth as much as they reckon it might be.

The only other thing i'd like guaranteed is that any Human remains found would be left where they are, as the wreck is after all the final resting place of over 1000 men and children. At the very least, if they do decide to 'recover' any remains, it would only be right to give them a decent Christian burial back on land.

likely even with a economic recession we are usally quite good with our historical artifacts.

[Steel of Fury]

Great find, hope more will be revealed and unearthed in the near future.