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  1. #1

    Default Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    Although I don't doubt that Stalin had no love the Polish Home Army and wanted them wiped out, it seems unlikely that the Red Army could have saved the Poles from the massacre that resulted and the main issue was hardly political, but military. Here are the accounts of David Glantz and Richard Overy on the Warsaw Uprising. The David Glantz account is a bit less detailed for it is not from a book, but an article.



    Richard Overy (Russia's War):

    The Polish capital was no stranger to war. In September 1939 the German air force flattened large parts of it in an effort to force Polish capitulation. In April 1943 the surviving population of the Warsaw Ghetto rose in revolt, only to be destroyed by 2,000 troops of the Waffen-SS in a savage act of reprisal which reduced the area to rubble and left over 20,000 men, women and children dead. The 49,000 who survived were sent to the camps, some for a quick death from gassing, some for a slow death in the labour colonies. In August 1944, with the Red Army in full pursuit of an apparently beaten enemy, fighting broke out in Warsaw again. The Polish resistance, organized as the Polish Home Army (Armia Krajowa), launched a rising in the capital on August 1 in an attempt to liberate it before the Soviet armies arrived.

    The revolt was led by General Tadeusz Bor-Komorowski and 20,000 poorly armed patriots. At five o’clock in the afternoon of August 1 the signal went out to the fighters of the Home Army. Germans found themselves all at once under a hail of fire from doorways, windows and balconies. Home-made bombs and mines exploded around the city. Parts of the German garrison were overwhelmed and large parts of central Warsaw were seized, but the rebels failed to capture the railway stations or any of the bridges over the Vistula. Lacking artillery, tanks or even adequate quantities of hand weapons and ammunition, they were worn down in two months of fighting against German troops under orders to raze the city and exterminate its people. Some 225,000 civilians died, in the largest single atrocity of the war. The German troops went on a rampage. They were led by the same Bach-Zalewski who had commanded the Einsatzgruppen in 1941 and run the brutal anti-partisan war behind the front. Hospitals were burned down with staff and patients imprisoned inside; gas was used to flush out Poles fleeing through the sewers; women and children were murdered in their thousands. On October 2, to save his city further suffering, Bor-Komorowski surrendered. His men went into captivity and Warsaw’s remaining population was deported to German camps. Stone by stone, street by street, the ancient city was utterly demolished.

    It has long been conventional in the West to hold Stalin and the Red Army responsible, indirectly, for the horrors that befell Warsaw. Churchill in his memoirs berated his former ally for lack of ‘considerations of honour, humanity, decent commonplace good faith’, characteristics with which Stalin was indeed poorly supplied. It is said that the Polish Home Army expected help from the Soviet Union. Instead the Red Army sat on the Vistula and watched the destruction of the city in front of them. Churchill was only one of many who assumed that Stalin did this in order to let the German army liquidate Polish nationalists instead of having to do so himself. In this sense the agony of Warsaw could be regarded either as the final flourish of the Nazi-Soviet Pact or as the first battleground of the Cold War.

    The truth is far more complicated than this. The Warsaw rising was instigated not to help out the Soviet advance but to forestall it. Polish nationalists did not want Warsaw liberated by the Red Army but wanted to do so themselves, as a symbol of the liberation struggle and the future independence of Poland. This ambition was all the more urgent because only days before, on July 21, a Communist-backed Polish Committee for National Liberation was set up with Stalin’s blessing. At Lublin on July 22 the Committee was declared to be the new Provisional Government; four days later a pact of friendship was signed, with the Soviet Union recognizing the new Government. All of this was at least technically within the terms agreed at Teheran, where Churchill and Roosevelt had half-heartedly acquiesced to Stalin’s request to keep the frontiers of 1941 and his share of Poland as divided in the German-Soviet pact. What Polish nationalists and the Western Allies could not tolerate was the almost certain fact that any new Polish state born of German defeat would be dominated by the Soviet Union. The Polish Government-in-exile in London, led by Stanislaw Mikolajczyk, urged the Home Army to launch a pre-emptive nationalist insurrection and remained unalterably opposed to any idea that the Soviet Union should keep the territory seized in 1939.

    The real issue was not political - there was nothing new about the hostility between Soviet leaders and Polish nationalists - but military. Could the Red Army have captured Warsaw in August 1944 and saved its population from further German barbarities? The answer now seems unambiguously negative. Soviet forces did not sit and play while Warsaw burned. The city was beyond their grasp. In the first days of August the most advanced Soviet units were engaged in bitter fighting on the approaches to the city; the small bridgeheads over the Vistula were subject to a fierce German onslaught. To the north both sides desperately contested the crossing of the Bug and Narew rivers, which might have opened up another avenue to the Polish capital. This was hardly inactivity, though it could little benefit the Poles. Stalin was completely, and no doubt correctly, dismissive of the military potential of the Polish army. ‘What kind of army is it?’ he asked Mikolajczyk, who was visiting Moscow in early August, ‘without artillery, tanks, air force? In modern war this is nothing…’ Soviet commanders knew that this was not like Kiev or Minsk; their forces were tired and short of arms, and the Germans had made the defence of the Warsaw district a priority. Late in August 1944 General Rokossovsky, whose troops were tied down on the Warsaw front, told a British war correspondent that ‘the rising would have made sense only if we were on the point of entering Warsaw. That point had not been reached at any stage… We were pushed back…’ When Zhukov was sent to the Warsaw front in early September to report to Stalin on the confused situation there, he concluded on military grounds that the Vistula could not yet be crossed in force. German war memoirs, which are less suspect as a source, confirm that the Red Army was prevented from helping Warsaw by the sudden stiffening of the German defence.

    Some effort was made to help the insurgents. Churchill and Roosevelt were shocked by Stalin’s attitude to the rising; they began to drop arms and supplies from heavy bombers, but the quantities were tiny. On August 4 two aircraft managed to reach Warsaw; on August 8 only four. The accuracy of high-altitude parachute drops was negligible, and it is likely that most of the material fell into German hands. This was Stalin’s reason for not dropping supplies. There was little military realism behind the Western plan. It is out of the question that Allied air drops could have sustained Polish resistance in Warsaw for long; they were gestures prompted by humanity certainly, but by politics as well. When Stalin finally relented in September and began to drop supplies into the surviving pockets of resistance in Warsaw, he was almost certainly motivated by politics alone. No doubt he did welcome the destruction of anti-Soviet Polish nationalism, which was certain by this stage. But even his Polish Communist allies wanted some kind of gesture towards the fate of their future capital, and by early September the military situation had altered. The Polish 1st Army under General Berling joined the front line opposite Warsaw on August 20. On September 10 the attack was renewed; this time the Praga, the eastern suburb of Warsaw on the Soviet side of the Vistula, was captured. Air shipments by low-level parachute drops began. The Polish 1st Army then launched its own attack across the Vistula into Warsaw itself, but after heavy losses was forced on September 23 to retreat back across the river. Even at this late stage the Polish Home Army distrusted their pro-Communist compatriots so profoundly that they refused to co-ordinate their operations with the new attacking force. A week later they surrendered, victims not so much of cynical Stalinist calculation but of their own nationalist fervour: love of their country and hatred of the two great powers at either shoulder which had conspired to crush it.

    Bagration did not lead to the liberation of Warsaw, for it had not been part of the original plan. In all other respects the operation was a resounding success. Belorussia was liberated, as was eastern Poland. In August the last of the five offensives was unleashed in the southern sector of the front, at the point where German and Romanian forces had been poised to absorb the Soviet punch in June. Now Axis forces were much weakened by the effort to reinforce the fighting further north, as Zhukov’s plan had intended. Soviet forces were larger than the armies they attacked, but the two months of fighting to the north had drained their reserves also. Some of the men were poorly trained, recruited hastily from the very areas the Soviet army had liberated only a few months before. Here too, the remodelled Red Army relied on tanks, guns and aircraft rather than on raw manpower.

    David Glantz (German-Soviet War 1941-1945: Myth's and Realities)


    No case of Red Army action or inaction on the Soviet-German front has generated more heated controversy then its operations east of Warsaw in August and September 1944 during the Polish Home Army’s Warsaw uprising against German occupation forces. While most Western historians have routinely accused Stalin of perfidy and deliberate treachery in permitting the Germans to destroy the Warsaw Poles, Russian historians counter by asserting the Red Army made every reasonable attempt to assist the beleaguered Poles.


    In fact, in late July 1944 the Stavka ordered its 2nd Tank Army to race northward to Warsaw with the 47th Army and a cavalry corps in its wake. After encountering two Wehrmacht divisions defending the southern approaches to Warsaw, the tank army tried to bypass the German defenses from the northeast but ran into a counterstroke by four Wehrmacht panzer divisions, which severely mauled the tank army and forced it to withdraw on 5 August. During the ensuing weeks, while the Warsaw uprising began, matured, but ultimately failed, the forces on the 1st Belorussian Front’s right wing continued their advance against Army Group Center northeast of Warsaw. For whatever motive, however, the forces on the 1st Belorussian Front’s right wing focused on defending the Magnuszew bridgehead south of Warsaw, which was being subjected to heavy German counterattacks throughout mid-August, and the forces on the front’s left wing continued their advance to the Bug River north of Warsaw and attempted to seize crossings over the river necessary to facilitate future offensive operations.


    Throughout the entire period up to 20 August 1944, the 1st Belorussian Front’s 47th Army remained the only major Red Army forces deployed across the Vistula River opposite Warsaw. On that date the 1st Polish Army joined it. Red Army forces north of Warsaw finally advanced across the Bug River on 3 September, closed up to the Narew River the following day, and fought their way into bridgeheads across the Narew on 6 September. Lead elements of two Polish divisions finally assaulted across the Vistula River into Warsaw on 13 September but made little progress and were evacuated back
    across the river ten days later.


    Political considerations and motivations aside, an objective consideration of combat in the Warsaw region indicates that, prior to early September, German resistance was sufficient to halt any Soviet assistance to the Poles in Warsaw, were it intended. Thereafter, it would have required a major reorientation of military efforts from Magnuszew in the south or, more realistically, from the Bug and Narew River axis in the north in order to muster sufficient force to break into Warsaw. And once broken into, Warsaw would have been a costly city to clear of Germans and an unsuitable location from which to launch a new offensive.
    Last edited by Applesmack; February 01, 2009 at 07:08 PM.

  2. #2
    Visna's Avatar Comrade Natascha
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    Default Re: Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    Imo the Poles got sacrificed in a dirty power politics game that the allies were forced to endure from their "alliance-of-convinience" with Stalin. Churchill, who remained very sceptical over Stalin's intentions with post-war Poland, wanted to help the Poles, but got obstructed at nearly every turn by the Soviets, and Roosevelt just wanted the war to be over quickly. And by the time of the Yalta conference, Stalin had such firm control of Poland, that the realities on the ground made it impossible to change anything. And by that time, the US was more concerned with securing Soviet participation in the war with Japan once Germany had been defeated, so they sure wouldn't risk jeopardizing that relationship over some Poles who were either dead or captured by that time anyway.

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Elder View Post
    Imo the Poles got sacrificed in a dirty power politics game that the allies were forced to endure from their "alliance-of-convinience" with Stalin. Churchill, who remained very sceptical over Stalin's intentions with post-war Poland, wanted to help the Poles, but got obstructed at nearly every turn by the Soviets, and Roosevelt just wanted the war to be over quickly. And by the time of the Yalta conference, Stalin had such firm control of Poland, that the realities on the ground made it impossible to change anything. And by that time, the US was more concerned with securing Soviet participation in the war with Japan once Germany had been defeated, so they sure wouldn't risk jeopardizing that relationship over some Poles who were either dead or captured by that time anyway.
    Yes but the Allies couldn't help the Poles, that is the point here. The British supplies did virtually nothing, most of them falling in German hands. The Soviet armies were completely out of steam and had to reorganize.

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    Visna's Avatar Comrade Natascha
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    Default Re: Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    Quote Originally Posted by Total Fanatic :) View Post
    Yes but the Allies couldn't help the Poles, that is the point here. The British supplies did virtually nothing, most of them falling in German hands. The Soviet armies were completely out of steam and had to reorganize.
    Some supplies fell into German hands, other Polish. But the really neat trick Stalin pulled was to deny the use of airfields in Soviet "liberated" territory. Which meant that the cargo planes would have to bring less weight because the trip was going to be significantly longer.
    Again Churchill was the most loud mouthed of the allied leaders, but without US support for the missions there was not much he could do. When he suggested that the allies would simply fly in, and openly defy Stalin, Roosevelt gave him a lecture about the long term goals of the war, and that not appeasing Stalin could jeopardize everything that had been gained so far.
    So Britain was forced to see the country they had originally gone to war over, being played right into Stalin hands, because Stalin simply held all the cards on that issue. And when big nations made deals, the well being and liberty of small nations was sometimes expendable. As was the case with Poland.

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    Ahlerich's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    Quote Originally Posted by Total Fanatic :) View Post
    Yes but the Allies couldn't help the Poles, that is the point here. The British supplies did virtually nothing, most of them falling in German hands. The Soviet armies were completely out of steam and had to reorganize.
    poland has been betrayed by france and britain who promised to instantly opening a second front if poland is attacked.

    it has not been done because there might have been no way but still a promise has been broken

  6. #6
    Visna's Avatar Comrade Natascha
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    Default Re: Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlerich View Post
    poland has been betrayed by france and britain who promised to instantly opening a second front if poland is attacked.

    it has not been done because there might have been no way but still a promise has been broken
    Well, to be a bit more fair...
    Both Britain and France demanded the German withdrawal from Poland on the same day the invasion happened. Of course Germany refused, why would they oblige? After the 2 day deadline for German withdrawal, Britain and France declared war. And they did open up a "new front", it's just that their mindsets were still kinda stuck in WW1.
    The whole Polish issue was a really sore point for the British throughout the war, and I'm not 100% certain, but it must have bothered especially Churchill immensely to see Stalin's thugs take control of Poland rather than the independent free Poland Britain had originally gone to war over.

    EDIT. And I'm still waiting for the "end all discussion" argument, as to why Stalin would refuse the Allied use of airfields in Soviet "liberated" territory.
    Last edited by Visna; February 03, 2009 at 07:46 AM.

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    Eat Meat Whale Meat
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    Default Re: Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Elder View Post
    Imo the Poles got sacrificed in a dirty power politics game that the allies were forced to endure from their "alliance-of-convinience" with Stalin. Churchill, who remained very sceptical over Stalin's intentions with post-war Poland, wanted to help the Poles, but got obstructed at nearly every turn by the Soviets, and Roosevelt just wanted the war to be over quickly. And by the time of the Yalta conference, Stalin had such firm control of Poland, that the realities on the ground made it impossible to change anything. And by that time, the US was more concerned with securing Soviet participation in the war with Japan once Germany had been defeated, so they sure wouldn't risk jeopardizing that relationship over some Poles who were either dead or captured by that time anyway.
    Until fairly late on, possibly post-Yalta, some Americans, including Roosevelt, trusted the Soviets more than the British. Not wanting Britain to gain yet more territory at the expense of American blood, as they did in WW1, Roosevelt sided with Stalin against Churchill more often than not. IIRC it was when the Soviets blatantly broke their Yalta promises that Roosevelt finally realised that Churchill had been right to fear for Poland, but by then it was much too late for anything more than Churchill's attempt to set spheres of influence.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    I remember watching on the Military channel that Stalin gave some half assed help. He dropped boxes with no parachute, so a lot of the cargo was damaged and usable when it reached the poles, full of rifles with ammo that didn't fit or were incompatible.


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    Default Re: Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    Yes but the Allies couldn't help the Poles, that is the point here. The British supplies did virtually nothing, most of them falling in German hands. The Soviet armies were completely out of steam and had to reorganize.
    They could have been far more effective had Stalin allowed the allies to land in Soviet held areas after a mission.
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    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    Well Stalin hasn't really tried...
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  11. #11
    Phunkracy's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    Well TF, you surely know that it will turn into bloody internet melee.


    First of all, you must all know, that Soviets directly encouraged Poles to uprise against zee Germans.
    And then resigned any support to the Uprising, aiding it when it was agonizing.
    Well, you may use a argument how much Soviet weaponry and overall aid was given to the Poles. The problem is, that battle was practically over (moreover, Stalin refused Allies to help Poles), and it was done under Western pressure. Stalin had absolutely no will to help Poles. He was just treacherous son of a b!tch. I do not accuse Russians. I accuse Stalin and his comrades. I see your will to in some way whitewash him a bit out of place, TF, considering what he have done to Russians.

    The argument that Red Army was exhausted and it's supply was too long is, well, not true to say at least. Well, first of all, forces which reached Warsaw weren't part of the main forces which assaulted Poland. And thus weren't as exhausted and their supply lines were quite ok.
    To be clear: Polish Underground Army (which had excellent spynetwork across whole poland and was very well informed about both, soviet and nazi armies) considered them as fully prepared for taking Warsaw. They weren't totally naive.

    The truth is that Soviet initial tank strike was repelled and took significant losses, however, it was not a important battle, more like a recon with a fight, and couldn't possibly weaken R.A's potential.
    Moreover, Red Army succed at securing whole Vistula river with a forces great enough than those needed to take Warsaw and it succesfully deployed deep raids into German occupied teoritorry, even more, it succesfully operated south and north of Warsaw, attacking essentially everewhere, except Warsaw, clearly avoiding aiding Warsaw in any way.

    This whole treacherous had purely political matters. It was an attempt to break Poland: morally, intelectually and politically.
    Last edited by Phunkracy; February 02, 2009 at 12:05 PM.




  12. #12

    Default Re: Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    The Red Army's exhaustion has no connection to the refuse of Stalin to allow the Western Allies to land their planes on Soviet-controlled territory.

    Stalin simply wanted the Armia Krajowa annihilated.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    Stalin couldn't help them. Of chourse he could try, but with most of army being exhausted and in need of reinforcement he had little chance of success.
    However USSR did help Poles with supplies and other stuff they could get to them.

  14. #14
    Phunkracy's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    Quote Originally Posted by Volh Vseslavich View Post
    Stalin couldn't help them.
    Poor good uncle Joe, couldn't help his beloved Poles...


    Of chourse he could try, but with most of army being exhausted
    That army was exhausted enough to expand south and to run succesful operations all around Warsaw, securing Vistula River everywhere but Warsaw, etc etc.

    If all that R.A. needed to recover was looong sunbath with an accompaniment of bombs in Warsaw, then well, I'm not imressed nor amused, to say at least

    However USSR did help Poles with supplies and other stuff they could get to them.
    Back then Uprising was pretty much over.
    In agony.
    That wasn't much of an aid...
    Last edited by Phunkracy; February 02, 2009 at 01:39 PM.




  15. #15

    Default Re: Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    Well, this is how the 1944 Warsaw uprising started:

    "Poles! This decisive moment of our heroic struggle will require readiness for sacrifices for our nation's sake. I order you the following:
    Bolsheviks are in front of Warsaw. They declare that they are friends of Polish people. This is an outrageous lie. Our outskirts, Vilno and Lublin demand
    revenge. Enemy Bolsheviks will meet with similar ferocity that undermined the spirit of the German occupants. All actions to help Russians are qualified
    as betrayal. The hour of Polish uprising is here! I cancel all the orders of Soviet collaborators. I ordered the commander of Army Krayova to suppress any attempts to help Soviets. Germans are fleeing. To the struggle with Soviets! Long live free Poland!
    Signed: Bur - Main Komendant of armed forces in Poland"
    Would anyone be surprised if Stalin did not help them if they themselves declared Stalin to be their enemy? But... Stalin nevertheless helped them!!!

    "
    Report of 1-st Belorussian front about Soviet help to Warsaw uprising:
    October 2, 1944.
    In order to help Polish uprising in Warsaw from September 13 till October 1, 1944 Soviet aviation has made 4821 flights including:
    2435 to deliver goods,
    100 to suppress antiaircraft fire,
    1361 to bombard German forces near Warsaw,
    925 to protect Poles and do reconnisence for them.
    During the same period Soviet aviation delivered to Poles in Warsaw:
    45-mm artillery guns: 1
    submachineguns: 1478
    50-mm minethrowers: 156
    antitank rifles: 505
    rifles Russian: 170
    rifles German: 350
    semiautomatic rifles: 669
    45-mm shells: 300
    50-mm mines: 37 216
    antitank cartridges: 57 640
    rifle cartridges: 1 312 600
    pistol cartridges: 1 360 984
    7.7-mm cartridges: 75 000
    "mauzer" cartridges: 260 600
    "parabellum" cartridges: 312 760
    hand grenades: 18 428
    German hand grenades: 18 270
    medicine: 515 kg
    telephones: 10
    telephone stations: 1
    telephone batteries: 22
    telephone cable: 9 600 m
    food: 131 221 kg
    Additionally, antiaircraft artillery of 1-st and 24-th divisions were protecting Poles against German aircrafts.
    Signed: Commander of 1-st Belorussian front, Marshall of USSR, Rokossovskii.
    Military Counsel Member, General Leitenant Telegin
    Chief of Staff, General Colonel Malinin"
    To mention, Soviet Army has just finished huge and costly operation "Bagration". Red Army is weakened, depleted of people, ammo and fuel. Rear supplies are too far behind... Soviets physically could not launch an unprepared attack on Germans that were bringing reinforcements. Especially since... Poles never asked for help! They even started the whole mess without notifying the Soviet Army!!! So, I would say, Poles are guilty themselves for the Warsaw massacre. Don't blame Russians for your own blinders. Your own government was comfortable in London and was never thinking about its own people, whom they sent to die for their "Polish pride".
    Last edited by Shurup; February 02, 2009 at 01:58 PM.

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  16. #16
    Phunkracy's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    "Poles! This decisive moment of our heroic struggle will require readiness for sacrifices for our nation's sake. I order you the following:
    Bolsheviks are in front of Warsaw. They declare that they are friends of Polish people. This is an outrageous lie. Our outskirts, Vilno and Lublin demand
    revenge. Enemy Bolsheviks will meet with similar ferocity that undermined the spirit of the German occupants. All actions to help Russians are qualified
    as betrayal. The hour of Polish uprising is here! I cancel all the orders of Soviet collaborators. I ordered the commander of Army Krayova to suppress any attempts to help Soviets. Germans are fleeing. To the struggle with Soviets! Long live free Poland!
    Signed: Bur - Main Komendant of armed forces in Poland"
    Well, in situation where Soviets(NKVD) tried to surpress any Armia Kraiova's activity (by simply executing it's members in all of occupied terrain) and pretended to gain control over it. To gain control over AK was to gain control over independent Poland. Soon after that this whole desperate attempt to show Soviets 'who's rocking there' was cancelled by all Polish officials, including 'Bur', the main Komendant himself. The goal was to welcome the Russians as an independent people, not their servants.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shurup View Post
    "To mention, Soviet Army has just finished huge and costly operation "Bagration". Red Army is weakened, depleted of people, ammo and fuel. Rear supplies are too far behind...
    bs... sorry, but it's bs.

    Soviets physically could not launch an unprepared attack on Germans that were bringing reinforcements.
    They were fully prepared and were performing initial attacks. It's Stalin's order which stopped R.A. from taking Warsaw from march.
    Poles never asked for help! They even started the whole mess without notifying the Soviet Army!!!
    Stalin was informed by Polish Government in Exile that 'Operation Tempest' will start. Stalin declared help. Several times. But it's his order which stopped Red Army right when it was preparing to final assault on Warsaw.

    So, I would say, Poles are guilty themselves for the Warsaw massacre. Don't blame Russians for your own blinders.
    Well, nobody blames Russians.
    Your own government was comfortable in London and was never thinking about its own people, whom they sent to die for their "Polish pride".
    Well, what do you know about Polish Goverment on Exile to say such?

    What do you know about reasons of Uprising? :hmmm:
    Last edited by Phunkracy; February 02, 2009 at 02:51 PM.




  17. #17

    Default Re: Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    Phunucracy, what are you trying to say? Shurup clearly proved the Soviets did help, even though the Poles openly wanted to fight off Soviets!

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    Phunkracy's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikitn View Post
    Phunucracy, what are you trying to say? Shurup clearly proved the Soviets did help, even though the Poles openly wanted to fight off Soviets!
    Such idea was abolished nearly instantly. Even though NKVD kept on exterminating AK's soldiers, and performing usual NKVD on polish citizens.
    Well, the help was far too late. Uprising started 6th August, and first drops begun 13th September. That makes about 40 days of zero activity.
    Last edited by Phunkracy; February 02, 2009 at 04:20 PM.




  19. #19

    Default Re: Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    Quote Originally Posted by Phunkracy View Post
    Such idea was abolished nearly instantly. Even though NKVD kept on exterminating AK's soldiers, and performing usual NKVD on polish citizens.
    Maybe officially.

    Well, the help was far too late. Uprising started 6th August, and first drops begun 13th September. That makes about 40 days of zero activity.
    Yeah sure.. It still doesn't change the volume of Soviet assistance, and the fact that Soviet air force regularly supported the Poles.

    Stop blaming the USSR for your failed revolt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites View Post
    How about the refusal to allow the Allied planes to use the airports in the Soviet-controlled territory? That decisively hampered the Western Allies' attempt to supply the Armia Krajowa.
    Maybe because Stalin distrusted them (as the allies distrusted USSR)?

    Besides what business had NKVD operating against an ally? Oops, I forgot USSR had actually invaded Poland hand in hand with the Germans in 1939.
    Irrelevant.

    EDIT. And I'm still waiting for the "end all discussion" argument, as to why Stalin would refuse the Allied use of airfields in Soviet "liberated" territory.
    Read above, in my post. It's pretty clear why.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    I think the why is obvious - because it served Stalin's interests to see the AK destroyed, and more importantly to make the Polish government in London look impotent.
    Stalin was pretty consistent about denying any kind of cooperation with the UK and US on aircraft issues - he refused shuttle bombing, denied the UK request to base planes in USSR territory to defend the Murmansk route, and only grudging ever let a tiny US bomber force base itself in Russia.
    And the British refused to provide weapons and ammunition for Polish insurgents. Does that mean they wanted the Poles to die, and they only helped them in the revolt to save face?

    PS. Do you think Britain would have allowed Soviet air armies to operate in Britain? The allies also refused to share much information with the USSR.
    Last edited by Nikitn; February 03, 2009 at 01:43 PM.

  20. #20
    KaerMorhen's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Warsaw Uprising Controversies

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikitn View Post
    Yeah sure.. It still doesn't change the volume of Soviet assistance, and the fact that Soviet air force regularly supported the Poles..
    Maybe officially.

    Stop blaming the USSR for your failed revolt.
    Stalin equals USSR and he let the Uprising to drowned in blood with smile on his face

    Maybe because Stalin distrusted them (as the allies distrusted USSR)?
    Irrelevant.

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