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Thread: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

  1. #41
    Junius's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    Senators, I wish now to submit to you some legislation that I have been working on for some time. In consultation with some close colleagues of mine, we have drawn up some articles which will better protect the state from crises. I humbly submit them to you for debate.

    1.) The powers of the magistracies shall not be augmented, altered or changed in anyway during a sitting of the Senate. Any changes to the office shall be voted on at the same time as the Senatorial elections. Any changes to be passed must win 2/3 non-abstaining vote.

    2.) One Consul shall always be present at Rome. If both Consuls are absent, the senior Praetor introduces laws to the vote.

    3.) Tribunes must be drawn from the Plebains. The Pontifex Maximus is reserved for the Patricians.

    4.) A Senator cannot hold the office of Consul for two consecutive terms.

    5.) Debates on new legislation must be held for a certain period (OoC: 2 days) before being put to the vote. The time allowed for a Senator to vote on an issue will be of equal length.

    6.) A General granted an Imperium will have complete military freedom to operate in the designated geographic area. The Senate may not interfere, but may question him when his Imperium has expired.

    I recognise that the first part of article 3 is already enshrined in our constitution. I wanted to include it, so as the Senate sees that both ranks of Senators have their priveleged offices. There is also precedent in our history which shows the Senate passing a law, already enacted, that has become a dead letter. It is there merely for emphasis.

    After sitting down, Marcellus writes a small note and beckons one of the Senatorial slaves over. The slave is seen giving the message to Senator Caesar. It reads:

    Senator,
    I would be most privileged if you could join me at my humble Domus for a small meal tonight. It is a small dinner, for friends, and not a feast, but I wish you could still attend.
    Yours,
    M. Clodius Marcellus
    Last edited by Junius; February 01, 2009 at 10:46 AM.
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  2. #42

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    Wait!

    Marcus Manlius' voice was heard throughout the Senate House

    Senator Clarus, with all respect, and you too Consul Crassus, have you read my report??

    Right now, we are relying on taxes for the greatest share of our money, if we would lower these taxes again, more than 75-80% of our income will dissapear!!

    Please, wait with lowering the taxes untill the trade is boosted and the farming also.
    I know, Senators, that we must not make the Plebs their lives hard, and I love the Plebs as you do. But we simply cannot let our income lower now!!

    Consul, I urge you NOT to change the taxes now!!
    If a motion comes up about this, I will do everything in my power to stop it, or make sure someone uses his veto!

    After waiting for a while, he continued

    About the military matters, may I suggest to let this wait minimum three months? (1 turn)
    Or if can be, six months or maybe longer?
    We are economoly not ready for this, certainly not in these first three months.
    After three months (1 turn) , we can do this, but certainly not earlier!

    Manlius sat down again, hoping that everyone would understand his point. If not, the economy was in great danger


    EDIT: because he first did not hear the words of Senator Marcellus, Manlius quickly reacted to this

    I support this motion!
    It will make sure Roman laws are far better and due to this the Senate will work much better!
    Last edited by Valerius Tiberius; February 01, 2009 at 10:49 AM.
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  3. #43

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    Don't talk nonsense, Quaestor, we would only lose that much money if we were to abandon all forms of taxation altogether!

    Nonetheless, if you think a lowering of them is a bad idea, I could support waiting until some developments in trade had been made.
    Senator Lucius Artorius Cato (34)

  4. #44

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    Thank you Consul, this is of most importance!
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  5. #45

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    As for you, Tribune, I thought it would have been beneath you to create such a bill so obviously engineered for the sole purpose of attacking me. I made it clear last term that I was not setting a precedent, and such things are highly unlikely to happen again. If you genuinely cared about not corrupting Rome's power, then you would not have presented such a bill - a bill which would mean that in a crisis our only option would be to elect a dictator.
    Senator Lucius Artorius Cato (34)

  6. #46
    Junius's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    That is an option that has served our forefathers very well in the past. The precedent is created, and I seek to make sure that the use of it should not be abused. I respect they way you wielded it Senator, many a lesser man would have been tempted to use it for more nefarious purposes. Unforunatly, we cannot legislate against those kinds of men becoming Consul, so we much legislate against other things.

    I welcome the debate, and will gladly answer any other questions that the Senate has for me and my legislation. If you want to see my privately about it, my doors, as Tribune, are always open.
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  7. #47
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    I'd like to draw everyone's attention to the following ooc vote concerning new rules for voting:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=222502

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel Jeb View Post
    Hah, you're always so helpful to threads Winter. No wonder you got citizen!


  8. #48

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    Consul Crassus, with all due respect, I see nothing in that new law that would go against you!?

    Could you indicate us which part is exactly is that you do not like?
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  9. #49
    Xavier Dragnesi's Avatar Esse quam videre
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    I believe that Crassus thinks that the first point in that bill was aimed at him and saying his action was inacceptable, due to his augmenting of Consular power in the previous term for the sake of the emergency.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    I greatly oppose the provision concerning imperium. It is a dangerous precedent to start removing influence from the Senate and transferring it to Consuls. The Senate must have oversight at all times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel Jeb View Post
    Hah, you're always so helpful to threads Winter. No wonder you got citizen!


  11. #51
    Elendil of Númenor's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    "I would change the last provision myself, the following way:

    A General granted an Imperium will have military freedom to operate in the designated geographic area, and must report to the Senate after a period of time. The Senate may at any time interfere in his plans, but may not question him when his Imperium has expired, with the exception of extraordinary cases."

  12. #52
    Junius's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    The whole idea behind the Imperium is to allow the commanding officer to operate how he sees fit in a completely unhindered way. You wouldn't see a battle conducted by committee, so why see a campaign conducted by one? The Senate appoints the general, and will be debriefed on the conclusion of his command. I am sure that Crassus could not have conducted as successful campaign as he did, if he had to refer every decision back to the Senate. The Imperium already grants what I have outlined. I only hope to enshrine it in law.

    I object to those ammendments. The last one is preposterous. If we legislate for no questioning of the General, we must accept that in every case. In any case, if we have cause to question a general it will be an extraordinary case. As I have said, the whole point of an Imperium is for the general not to have to refer to the Senate, and if we are able to interfere whenever we want, we will use that power, to the detrement of the campaign.
    Last edited by Junius; February 01, 2009 at 12:10 PM.
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  13. #53

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    I frankly do not see any point in the legislation. What we should have done, and no doubt WILL do in the future is to point out a dictator. You are complicating matters greatly, and unless you present a more compelling argument i will veto the motion, i simply do not see a use for it.

    We either have Consuls who are given imperium by the senate, or we have a dictator for a set ammount of time.

    As for the taxation i will not accept it for a day longer than is absolutely necessary. So clear this up for me Quaestor, is it only convenient to keep taxes like they are, or is it an absolute and undeniable necessity?
    Last edited by Snowball; February 01, 2009 at 12:27 PM.
    People will believe a lie because they want it to be true; or they're afraid it's true.
    Given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe its true, or because they're afraid it might be true. Peoples' heads are full of knowledge, facts and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    Clarus, I do not understand you. You say that my legislation complicates matters, but what I do is only make it able for a Dictator or Consul to be appointed. If anything I simplify matters, I think you have greatly misunderstood the motion.
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  15. #55
    Elendil of Númenor's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    "Senator Marcellus, I understand what you say. But I am not talking about consuls like Crassus and Ahenobarbus. I am talking...' no one was sure if they saw Celsus's eyes stray to some people in the House 'about some power hungry upstarts, who could reach consulship, and slipping out of command do terrible things that Rome would forever regret! If the Senate can't even know what a consul is doing, what is the point of a Senate at all?
    Or why not call the consul you want to desribe, simply Dictator, or King, even.

    Senator Clarus, we will need those taxes if we want to build up the things that will deny our need for them! At least for the next few months, they shall be needed!"

  16. #56
    Junius's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    What I am doing is limiting the power of Consuls. If my legislation is adopted, there will be no ability for Senators, or groups of Senators, to monopolise power, or change so that they can use it against Rome.

    Let us drop the last article, about the Imperium, will that make this law more acceptable?
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  17. #57

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    1.)The powers of the magistracies shall not be augmented, altered or changed in anyway during a sitting of the Senate. Any changes to the office shall be voted on at the same time as the Senatorial elections. Any changes to be passed must win 2/3 non-abstaining vote.

    6.) A General granted an Imperium will have complete military freedom to operate in the designated geographic area. The Senate may not interfere, but may question him when his Imperium has expired.


    These two points take away our flexibility in dealing with a situation.



    The circumstances of Imperium should be decided on while we are debating on giving it. And the power of magistracies should be up to the senate at the time to decide on!
    People will believe a lie because they want it to be true; or they're afraid it's true.
    Given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe its true, or because they're afraid it might be true. Peoples' heads are full of knowledge, facts and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.

  18. #58
    Junius's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    You yourself, Clarus, said that we should have appointed a Dictator, what I am doing is allowing the Senate the flexibility to change the magistracies, but not to the benefit of one man, since a vote for the office will take place at the same time. In a crisis, the only option is a Dictator. This legislation allows for that, but outlaws magistrates giving themselves greater powers that benefit themselves. Since I have struck the last article, I cannot understand your objection.
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  19. #59

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    Magistrates cant give themselves greater power, the senate can!

    If a Magistrate suggests it, and the senate agrees then it shall be so, that is the way.

    OoC; Might i suggest that we "pretend" that the individual soldiers who have completed their "tour of duty" are replaced during retraining?....it would satisfy the IC demands aswell as the OOC game technical demands.
    Last edited by Snowball; February 01, 2009 at 01:52 PM.
    People will believe a lie because they want it to be true; or they're afraid it's true.
    Given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe its true, or because they're afraid it might be true. Peoples' heads are full of knowledge, facts and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.

  20. #60

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Balbus/Crassus

    Everything must be moderated by the senate. I also call into question the legality of the entire affair. Except in cases of dictatorship no one or two Roman citizens are granted absolute power to do as they please.

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