Bayonet Charges

[Azog 150]

Basically, I would like some answers regarding the use of bayonet charges and how they have adapted through the years.

I know an old common tactic was to try and make a unit falter, before launching a bayonet charge to try and make them break and run. First of all, in these kinds of battles, were bayonet charges even that common? And were they that effective? (Examples would be nice.)

I would also like to know about how they have changed over the years. I know in World War 1, bayonet training was still essential, but were they used that effectively in this war?

Same with World War 2 (Although bayonet training was no longer as common if I'm not mistaken)

Finally, the one I'm most interested in. How are they used in modern warfare? I know there have been some examples of British bayonet charges in the Falklands, and also a very successful one in Iraq (20 guys of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders charged 100 Militia, most of whom simply ran away. They managed to kill 35 guys without taking a single loss). But do other armies still employ them as a valid tactic? And also, what sort of situation would they be used in and how would they be carried out?

[Garrigan]

I believe that most major infantry engagements of the Napoleonic wars would finish with a bayonet charge. As you said, the volleys would make the enemy falter, and the charge would make them run.

[Octavius Vatco]

Banzai charge....

[vizi]

Can you imagine trying to shoot a person with a muzzleloader up close? Never mind that, any full sized rifle bolt action rifle up close. They are long weapons, and no one likes getting stabbed to death.

[teh.frickin.pope]

One of the critical factors at the Battle of Gettysburgh was the 20th Maine's defense of Little Round Top, which culminated in the Union forces performing a bayonet charge down the hill and capturing many Confederate soldiers.

[vizi]

That was a crazy maneuver. It worked though. There is a single example. I mean you can look at WW1 if you want. Trench fighting would turn into a deadly melee after a short amount of time.

[Spartacus the Irish]

I know from the reliable source of Dad's Army that "they don't like it up 'em!"

Seriously though, there will always be a place, if severely limited, for close-quarter combat in war, even modern and future warfare. You could be armed with the largest minigun in the world, but there may come a time when the psychological effect of 'cold steel' works far more effectively than 'hot lead' can; or at the very least in certain situations - low ammo, the need to break through an enemy, range too close for effective fire.

British section tactics for assaulting an enemy position indicated that the one, or later two, Bren LMGs should lay down covering fire whilst the remainder of the section advanced on the flank, culminating in a rush whilst firing - often using bayonets.

This tactic was of course specifically designed to dislodge defenders from heavy cover - re: the bocage of northern France. It wouldn't particularly work with a hundred metre sprint across open ground. The British weren't Russian [/sarcasm].

[Carl von Döbeln]

I know an old common tactic was to try and make a unit falter, before launching a bayonet charge to try and make them break and run. First of all, in these kinds of battles, were bayonet charges even that common? And were they that effective?

The Swedish Carolean Tactic during mainly the great northern war was extremly aggressive, and relied on one volley at close range ( 20 meters) and then a cold steel charge with bayonets, swords, and pikes. Often the enemy was routed just when the charge begun, and it was not very often that hand to hand combat broke out.

Some more detailed info;

The Carolean tactics almost exclusively relied on very aggressive shock tactic as the infantry and cavalry charged the enemy. As the bayonet was introduced, the pike was discarded in all armies except the Swedish and Russian by 1700. The infantry shock attack operated as follows: The two rear ranks of musketeers were ordered to shoot when "you could see the white in the enemies eye," a range of roughly 50 meters, and then to draw their swords before the battalion resumed their attack. The two foremost ranks then discharged at a range of roughly 20 meters before drawing their swords and the charge began. At this range, the powerful muskets usually felled many enemy troops and was demoralising to them. Directly after the volley the Swedes charged the enemy ranks with pikes, bayonets and sabres. Note that the pikes were used as an offensive weapon: in close combat they had the advantage over their foes' weapons thanks to their range. After the bayonet was introduced in the Carolean army (1700–1706), the final volley was delayed until the soldiers were inside bayonet range. Every infantry battalion had grenadiers attached. They supported the infantry attack by lobbing grenades from the flanks. They also formed units of their own. They were otherwise equipped like infantry. Thus, in the latter half of the 17th century, the major difference between the Swedish army and those common on the continent was the relative lack of firepower and the use of pikes and sabres. Sweden and Russia were the only countries at the time using pikes. In contemporary Europe infantry was equipped with a musket while in the Swedish army every third man had a pike. The pikemen where normally deployed 4 men deep with musketeers of equal depth on the sides. The pike was used to repulse cavalry and to break the enemy lines as they charged.

[Dromikaites]

It works on a wavering enemy. In other settings is just suicidal (as the "Banzai charges" showed).

[Blau&Gruen]

Some may know this passage. I think it fits well in here:

Next day there was an issue of Edamer cheese. Each man gets almost a quarter of a cheese. In one way that is all to the good, for Edamer is tasty--but in another way it is vile, because the fat red balls have long been a sign of a bad time coming. Our forebodings increase as rum is served out. We drink it of course; but are not greatly comforted.
During the day we loaf about and make war on the rats. Ammunition and hand-grenades become more plentiful. We overhaul the bayonets--that is to say, the ones that have a saw on the blunt edge. If the fellows over there catch a man with one of those he's killed at sight. In the next sector some of our men were found whose noses were cut off and their eyes poked out with their own saw-bayonets. Their mouths and noses were stuffed with sawdust so that they suffocated.
Some of the recruits have bayonets of this sort; we take them away and give them the ordinary kind.
But the bayonet has practically lost its importance. It is usually the fashion now to charge with bombs and spades only. The sharpened spade is a more handy and many-sided weapon; not only can it be used for jabbing a man under the chin, but it is much better for striking with because of its greater weight; and if one hits between the neck and shoulder it easily cleaves as far down as the chest. The bayonet frequently jams on the thrust and then a man has to kick hard on the other fellow's belly to pull it out again; and in the interval he may easily get one himself. And what's more the blade often gets broken off.
At night they send over gas. We expect the attack to follow and lie with our masks on, ready to tear them off as soon as the first shadow appears.
Dawn approaches without anything happening--only the everlasting, nerve-wracking roll behind the enemy lines, trains, trains, lorries, lorries; but what are they concentrating? Our artillery fires on it continually, but still it does not cease.
We have tired faces and avoid each other's eyes. "It will be like the Somme," says Kat gloomily. "There we were shelled steadily for seven days and nights." Kat has lost all his fun since we have been here, which is bad, for Kat is an old front-hog, and can smell what is coming. Only Tjaden seems pleased with the good rations and the rum; he thinks we might even go back to rest without anything happening at all.

Erich Maria Remarque, All Quiet on the Western Front, 1928 (1929).

[jo the greek]

The story of the use of the bayonet is very strange at one point even in Napoleonic wars and in Civil war bayonet seemed useless against infantry swords produced more damage.In Civil war it almost suicide to attack with bayonet against well ordered units.But then the evolution of artillery
in lates 1880s gave a new power to the bayonet that allowed men to able reuse bayonet effectively.

By the way Banzai attacks had no order and logic were more like a suicide than an attack more
organized were the human waves attacks in Korea war that were used from the Chinese.

[Last Roman]

one of the most important (yet least recognized) charges at Gettysburg

Maj. Gen. Winfield S. Hancock, commander of the II Corps, ordered the regiment to assault a much larger enemy force (a brigade commanded by Brig. Gen. Cadmus M. Wilcox) telling Col. William Colvill to take the the enemy's colors. The fateful charge bought the time needed while other forces was brought up. During the charge, 215 members of the 262 men who were present at the time became casualties, including the regimental commander, Col. William Colvill, and all but three of his officers.

The unit's flag fell five times and rose again each time. The 47 survivors rallied back to General Hancock under the senior surviving officer, Captain Henry C. Coates. The 83 percent casualty rate stands to this day as the largest loss by any surviving military unit in American history during any single engagement. The unit's flag is now in the Minnesota Capitol's rotunda.

Despite the horrendous casualties the 1st Minnesota had incurred, it continued the fight the next day, helping to repulse Pickett's Charge. The surviving Minnesotans just happened to have been positioned at one of the few places where Union lines were breached during that engagement, and, as a result, charged the advancing Confederate positions one last time as a unit.

@B&G, thank you for quoting my favorite novel of all time

[vizi]

Again, we can tag the ACW as a place where the bayonet charge was very useful. I know during the Japanese-Russo War the Russians fought as a force determined to close the gap and make a bayonet charge. It didn't work very well, thanks to machine guns.

I think we might be able to tack down machine guns, effective machine guns, as the death of the proper bayonet charge.

Any arguments?

[Erebus Pasha]

Again, we can tag the ACW as a place where the bayonet charge was very useful. I know during the Japanese-Russo War the Russians fought as a force determined to close the gap and make a bayonet charge. It didn't work very well, thanks to machine guns.

I think we might be able to tack down machine guns, effective machine guns, as the death of the proper bayonet charge.

Any arguments?

The machine gun and fast and accurate rifle fire brought about the end of troops advancing in close order but not the death of a proper bayonet charge.

I personally find the the Russo-Japanese War a paradox in itself - both sides entrenched using barbed wire, bunkers, machine gun emplacements and quick firing artillery pieces but advanced in close order with bayonet upon enemy positions.

[67th Tigers]

The 20th Maine's charge is interesting, since it prettymuch occurred in 1884 (when Chamberlain wrote a report dated 6th June 1863 for the Official Records). It certainly wasn't as appeared in the Killer Angels (or it's film). Chamberlain's actual after action report is far more austere. Also, they didn't save the Union Army, since the Round Hills were in no way part of the Confederate Plan. When Hood was hit elements of his division and McLaws' drifted off target thinking they were being flanked and had a rather pointless fight.

The 1st Minnesota's casualties largely stem from a Blue on Blue incident. The Regiment was formed in 2 lines and went to give a volley, the 2nd line volleyed straight into the backs of the 1st line, largely wiping it out. They never got within 50 yards of the Confederates.

[Spartacus the Irish]

The 1st Minnesota's casualties largely stem from a Blue on Blue incident. The Regiment was formed in 2 lines and went to give a volley, the 2nd line volleyed straight into the backs of the 1st line, largely wiping it out. They never got within 50 yards of the Confederates.

I have never laughed so hard as when reading this. You can just picture the expression on the Regiments commander's face after the smoke cleared and he looked down at the bodies of the first rank.

"I believe the phrase rhymes with 'clucking bell'."

[Azog 150]

^^^


Thanks for the answers.

So it seems organized bayonet charges are useful when there is some sort of foliage or cover around, you are relatively close and there isn't any machine guns about...

But what about the examples like the Para's launching an uphill bayonet charge against MG's in the Falklands? I have read they were a success, but why? As far as I know, the Falkland islands don't really have much in the way of dense foliage, then there is the fact is was uphill against weapons that pour out about 700 bullets a minute (Or something similar). But it worked. It just strikes me as something incredibly foolhardy, and something that could so easily have gone wrong- especially in this day and age when even a single death is something that is throughly investigated- let alone 20+ deaths.

Also, does anyone have any more recent examples of charges like these?

[67th Tigers]

^^^


Thanks for the answers.

So it seems bayonets useful when there is some sort of foliage or cover around, you are relatively close and there isn't any machine guns about...

But what about the examples like the Para's launching an uphill bayonet charge against MG's in the Falklands? I have read they were a success, but why? As far as I know, the Falkland islands don't really have much in the way of dense foliage, then there is the fact is was uphill against weapons that pour out about 700 bullets a minute (Or something similar). But it worked. It just strikes me as something incredibly foolhardy, and something that could so easily have gone wrong- especially in this day and age when even a single death is something that is throughly investigated- let alone 20+ deaths.

Also, does anyone have any more recent examples of charges like these?

2 Para's charges at Goose Green largely failed, but then Jones VC was dangerously incompetent. However, there were some very successful bayonet charges in the broken ground surrounding Standley. Notably 2nd Bn, Scots Gds at Tumbledown.

The last bayonet charge I can recall was made by the PWRR at the Battle of Danny Boy.

Edit: Although I remember several recent incidents of close quarter battle reached bayonetpoint in Afghanistan. I'm out of the loop these days though.

[Azog 150]

Just read about that charge at Tumbledown. It seems pretty crazy that it worked- they charged a well dug in position, and succeeded.

The fighting was hard going for Left Flank. The Argentines had well dug-in machine guns, and sniper fire caused all manner of problems. At 2.30 a.m., however, a second British assault overwhelmed the Argentine defences, as British troops swarmed the mountaintop and drove the Argentines out, at times fighting with fixed bayonets. Major Kiszely, who was to become a senior general after the war, was the first man into the enemy position, personally shooting two enemy conscripts and bayoneting a third, his bayonet breaking in two. Seeing their company commander among the Argentines inspired 14 and 15 Platoons to make the final dash across open ground to get within bayoneting distance of the marines. Kiszely and six other Guardsmen suddenly found themselves standing on top of the mountain, looking down on Stanley under street lighting and with vehicles moving along the roads. The Argentines now counter-attacked and a burst of machine gun fire from 3rd Platoon of Second Lieutenant Augusto La Madrid immediately injured three of these men, including Lieutenant Alasdair Mitchell, commander of 15 Platoon. Kiszely had a bullet pass through his compass secured on his belt. For his bayonet charge Major Kiszely was awarded the Military Cross.

It doesn't explain much about how the charge was carried out though. Was simply just a matter of fixing bayonets and running at a well dug in enemy?

[Rootsie]

Also, does anyone have any more recent examples of charges like these?

They are often impromptu bayonet charges in the green zone in Helmand. Watch the new Ross Kemp series.

2 Para's charges at Goose Green largely failed, but then Jones VC was dangerously incompetent. However, there were some very successful bayonet charges in the broken ground surrounding Standley. Notably 2nd Bn, Scots Gds at Tumbledown.

I wouldn't have called him incompetent. We was a very respected CO