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    mrmouth's Avatar flaxen haired argonaut
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    Default Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    Friday, January 23, 2009
    By by Farhat Taj

    Some weeks ago I was with a family in the NWFP. The family had staying with them many relatives from a Taliban-occupied tribal area. I asked one of the relatives his views on a dialogue with the Taliban. We were talking in Pashto, but the young man's prompt reaction came in English: "Dialogue? Taliban? My foot!" Then he returned to Pashto. "All those who want a dialogue with the Taliban should go to hell. No dialogue with the Taliban. The army must kill them all. But the army does not want to kill them."

    The remarks typify the widespread feelings of hatred towards the Taliban and of disappointment in the army's failure to curb them in the tribal areas and the NWFP. People just want the writ of the government restored and the Taliban brought before the law.

    Most of those in Pakistan who seek the dialogue are outsiders who do not care to come to the Pakhtun areas and see the ground realities and the sufferings of the people. They are either intellectually lazy or are insensitive to the trauma of the terrorised people.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    One of these advocates of a dialogue between the government and the Taliban is Masooda Bano. After reading her article in The News titled "What a Thought" (Jan 16), I sent her an email asking the following questions.

    1) Which Taliban/militant leaders in the Pakhtun areas are you proposing for a dialogue? Please name those leaders.

    2) Please elaborate why you think there should be dialogue with those leaders. Please elaborate one by one with reference to each leader?

    3) If not the Taliban/militant leaders, who else are you proposing as partners in the dialogue?

    4) Under what conditions should a dialogue with Taliban/militants take place, or should it be unconditional?

    5) Are you from the NWFP or FATA?

    6) If not, when was the last time you came to the NWFP or FATA?

    She never replied to my email. If she had replied, I would have had a better idea of the logic behind her suggestion for the dialogue. One person with whom I discussed her suggestion said the writer is backing the Taliban by asking for what they themselves ask--a dialogue. "The Taliban ask for dialogue just to get more time and space to reorganizes," said a woman.

    Masooda Bano referred to words two British ministers to conclude that there is "recognition at the global level that the use of force perpetuates rather than curtails militancy," which provides the Pakistani leadership with "just the right support to build a strong case for replacing military operations in the NWFP and tribal belt with dialogue." The Pakhtun who experience the full range of Talibanisation, day and and day out, know that Taliban atrocities are not going to end with a dialogue. The Taliban have an agenda of a savage social order to be imposed on the people. The Pakhtun are not ready for that and this is the reason why they are bearing the brunt of the Taliban savagery. Hatred against the Taliban in the Pakhtun areas is at an all-time high and so is disappointment, even resentment, about the Pakistani army for its failure to stop the Taliban. All over the NWFP and FATA one can find people who even discuss possibilities of Israel and India to be asked for help. Their argument goes like this: "We are not killed by Israel and India. We are killed by the Taliban and the Pakistani army. So, who is our enemy, then?" Many people in the Taliban-occupied territories of the NWFP and FATA told me they constantly pray for the US drones to bomb the Taliban headquarters in their areas since the Pakistani army is unwilling to do so. Many people of Waziristan told me they are satisfied with the US drone attacks on militants in Waziristan and they want the Americans to keep it up till all the militants, local Pakhtun, the Punjabis and the foreigners, are eliminated.

    The Pakhtun are not ready to accept that the strong Pakistani army is unable to eliminate the key leaders of all the Taliban groups and their headquarters. People argue: When the Pakistani army leadership wished, it eliminated Nawab Akbar Bugti in the most brutal manner, in complete disrespect for the wishes of the Baloch and other Pakistanis. How come the army does not eliminate the murderous gangsters like Taliban leaders Baituall and Fazllulah when the Pakhtun are asking for it? People want the army to eliminate the entire leadership of all Taliban gangs, their headquarters and hideouts in targeted operations based on good intelligence. The Pakhtun are not ready to accept that the mighty ISI cannot provide actionable intelligence to the army for prompt targeted operations.

    In my article of Jan 15 I explained that there cannot be a dialogue with the Taliban because there does not exist any common ground that is mutually respected by both the government of Pakistan and the Taliban. Such a ground, I argued, can be the law of Pakistan, the code of Pakhtunwali or Islam--none of which is respected by the Taliban. Now I would say that it is not even practical and feasible to have a dialogue with the Taliban. The Taliban are not a homogeneous group. There are not one, two, three, four or five Taliban leaders. The Taliban are made up of a large number of militant and criminal gangs. (Perhaps the ISI knows the exact number.) How many dialogues must the government initiate? How many criminal gangs must the government appease?

    The Taliban groups have a broad-based combined agenda--i.e., imposition of their own version of religion on the Pakhtun through terror and violence. But the groups operate independently of each other. They, however, support, or at least do not mess up with, each other's activities in the implementation of the agenda. Thus, for example, a group of local Taliban in North Waziristan have a peace deal with the army. According to the written version of the agreement (which has been seen by NWFP and tribal journalists), the deal binds the Taliban not to allow any activities in their area that can be against the law of Pakistan. But some South Waziristan Taliban gangs, linked with the Punjab-based sectarian groups Sipah-e-Sahaba and Lashkar-e-Jangvi, move through the area of North Waziristan Taliban to come to the area between Kohat and Parachinar to terrorise Shia Pakhtun in the area. After having committed their acts of terrorism in the Shia reas, they go back to South Waziristan via North Waziristan where the Taliban that have agreement with the army never ever try to stop this traffic in the Shia areas.

    Taliban gangs in both Waziristan routinely terrorise the people of Waziristan. This is one of the key reasons why so many people of Waziristan have preferred to live as internally displaced people in other parts of Pakistan.

    An internally displaced woman of Waziristan with whom I discussed Masooda Bano's article has this message for her: "Would you like to live under Taliban rule? If yes, you are most welcome to come to Taliban-occupied Waziristan or Swat. If not, why do you float pro-Taliban suggestions like the dialogue which will force the Pakhtun to live under their inhuman order one way of the other? Or perhaps you believe that the Pakhtun are naturally cut out for brutal life under the Taliban."

    The NWFP government had an agreement with groups of the Taliban in the NWFP. According to the agreement the arrested Taliban militants for involvements in terrorist activities were to be released after a judicial procedure. Later some Taliban leaders argued that they do not believe in the law of Pakistan and insisted the arrested Taliban must be released without any judicial procedure under the law. The government refused, and this put the agreement in trouble.

    The Pakhtun are sick and tired of this dialogue and the so-called peace agreements with the Taliban. They want the Taliban brought by force under Pakistani law. As a Pakhtun I understand the outsiders, whether ignorant or insensitive, do not understand and respect this law.
    http://www.thenews.com.pk/print1.asp?id=158530
    Last edited by mrmouth; January 27, 2009 at 01:23 PM.
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    Default Re: Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    Ah, a Pakistan expert I presume? Please send your resume to hillary4prez2008@gmail.com thanks.

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    Default Re: Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Hussein Obama View Post
    Ah, a Pakistan expert I presume? Please send your resume to hillary4prez2008@gmail.com thanks.
    Contrary to most Americans, I can actually pinpoint Pakistan on a globe for you (and ANY other country you would care to mention). Can I have a job too please.


    But not in Pakistan.
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    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    I am friends with a Pashtun guy here in England who is studying here and originally from Dera Ismail Khan. He loves the Pakistani Taleban. He says they have driven out bandits and brought order after the Army evacuated.

    He says this is a widespread opinion in his area.

    He studies medicine at King's.




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    Default Re: Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    I am friends with a Pashtun guy here in England who is studying here and originally from Dera Ismail Khan. He loves the Pakistani Taleban. He says they have driven out bandits and brought order after the Army evacuated.

    He says this is a widespread opinion in his area.

    He studies medicine at King's.
    by Jove you're friend with a sympatizer of terrorists!!!!!

    SO you're a terrorist yourself!!!! The Mi5 (or was it the Mi6) is already on the way for you, prepare to be waterboarded and to be putted in an overcrowded prison with a lot of lonely hairy men you undercover taliban!!
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    Default Re: Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    I am friends with a Pashtun guy here in England who is studying here and originally from Dera Ismail Khan. He loves the Pakistani Taleban. He says they have driven out bandits and brought order after the Army evacuated.

    He says this is a widespread opinion in his area.

    He studies medicine at King's.
    Good for him, i wonder what the Pashtun women's opinion would be, oh yeah i forgot, women dont have an opinion under the Taliban, they get acid thrown in their faces and their schools burnt...and this dude is here at a prestigious med school in England with all the comfort..talking about how great the Taliban are...yes lets thank the Taliban for getting rid of the gurls..we all know how distracting they can be in school..

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    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    Quote Originally Posted by antares24 View Post
    by Jove you're friend with a sympatizer of terrorists!!!!!

    SO you're a terrorist yourself!!!! The Mi5 (or was it the Mi6) is already on the way for you, prepare to be waterboarded and to be putted in an overcrowded prison with a lot of lonely hairy men you undercover taliban!!
    My daddy has many influential friends. He will protect me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fieldmarshal View Post
    and this dude is here at a prestigious med school in England with all the comfort..talking about how great the Taliban are...yes lets thank the Taliban for getting rid of the gurls..we all know how distracting they can be in school..
    Dont go hating on my friend man. Just cos he has an opinion different to yours. Srsly. He may save your life one day.

    He gets so much ass. He looks like Colin Farrel.




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    Default Re: Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    My daddy has many influential friends. He will protect me.

    I like hairy men. They are warm.



    Dont go hating on my friend man. Just cos he has an opinion different to yours. Srsly. He may save your life one day.

    He gets so much ass. He looks like Colin Farrel.
    lol

    you have a crush on Colin Farrell
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  9. #9
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaghatai Khan View Post
    lol

    you have a crush on Colin Farrell
    he's such a dreamboat.




  10. #10
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    He says they have driven out bandits and brought order after the Army evacuated.
    They are known for bringing order to those they "govern".


    Unfortunatly it's overwhelmingly too much "order" and often involves lots of amputations and public executions.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    He asks one guy, gets the opinion he wanted and then says it 'typify the widespread feelings of hatred towards the Taliban'. Asking one person does not entitle you to 'typify' the feelings of Pakistanis.
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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    He asks one guy, gets the opinion he wanted and then says it 'typify the widespread feelings of hatred towards the Taliban'. Asking one person does not entitle you to 'typify' the feelings of Pakistanis.
    indeed, though HG did the same thing.

    that said, my guess is that opinion on the taliban is probably pretty mixed. of course, like I said, that's just a guess.
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    Default Re: Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman View Post
    indeed, though HG did the same thing.

    that said, my guess is that opinion on the taliban is probably pretty mixed. of course, like I said, that's just a guess.
    I'm pretty sure HG was being sarcastic in order to point out the absurdity of Barnaby's article.
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    Default Re: Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    tbh, i believe most people in the tribal regions of Pakistan support the Taliban, simply because, most of the luxuries the Taliban prohibit are absent, its a male dominated society, so women have no rights either way. So for the locals, there really isnt much difference in terms of who governs them. And then you have religion mixed into it, and the Taliban potray themselves as doing it for God, that gives them a lot of support. And the biggest thing being, heck the Taliban is the comination of all these tribes from Afganistan and Pakistan..duh they support them.

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    Default Re: Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    Quote Originally Posted by Major.Stupidity
    I'm pretty sure HG was being sarcastic in order to point out the absurdity of Barnaby's article.
    What absurdity?

    The Pashtuns up and around Pakistan's NWFP/Waziristan region have been a thorn in the side of the central government for decades.

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    Default Re: Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelius View Post
    What absurdity?

    The Pashtuns up and around Pakistan's NWFP/Waziristan region have been a thorn in the side of the central government for decades.
    The absurdity of Barnaby's point lies in the original authors premise that a family "typifies" how most Pakistanis feel.
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    Default Re: Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    Quote Originally Posted by Major.Stupidity View Post
    The absurdity of Barnaby's point lies in the original authors premise that a family "typifies" how most Pakistanis feel.
    Even if, for argument's sake, we accept Barnaby's posted findings as fact, no one can deny that the tribal Pashtun society detests foreign occupation more than it does religious fundamentalists.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    Quote Originally Posted by Pashtun Mujahideen Commander View Post
    Even if, for argument's sake, we accept Barnaby's posted findings as fact, no one can deny that the tribal Pashtun society detests foreign occupation more than it does religious fundamentalists.
    Well, you are either those of destruction or those of construction. I'm not sure exactly what the OP was implying by saying "privately", but I do know if you are on the side of destruction I am goingto saddle up with Obama and not like you too much.

    As is now the rest of the world.
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  19. #19
    mrmouth's Avatar flaxen haired argonaut
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    Default Re: Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    Quote Originally Posted by Major.Stupidity View Post
    The absurdity of Barnaby's point lies in the original authors premise that a family "typifies" how most Pakistanis feel.

    First off, its not my point, its a ing article.

    The guy who wrote the article, is Pakistani, and travels throughout the NWFP. Whats more, if you bother tor read beyond the first paragraph, the rest of the article pretty much reinforces what is said in that first paragraph.

    I mean come on man...

    Here is another article written by Taj if the first one wasn't definitive enough...

    "The Pakhtun are caught up in one of the most difficult times of their history. The Taliban are aggressively attacking their lives, livelihoods, culture and history. Pakistan army, the defender of the frontiers of Pakistan, including the Pakhtun areas, is failing to protect them against the atrocities of the Taliban.

    Some influential outsiders continue to depict in media that the Pakhtun and Taliban are one and the same people. The outsiders have almost no or at best a superficial knowledge of the history and culture of the Pakhtun. Most of them never even care to come to the Pakhtun areas to see the realities of the people with their own eyes and still they believe themselves to be authorities on the Pakhtun. They seem to take pride in their ignorance about the Pakhtun. They do not even care to check the bases of their arguments in media discussions against the culture, history and current realities of the Pakhtun."

    contd here http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=157179
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    Default Re: Privately, Pakistanis want US strikes to continue

    Quote Originally Posted by BarnabyJones View Post
    ...

    "The Pakhtun are caught up in one of the most difficult times of their history. The Taliban are aggressively attacking their lives, livelihoods, culture and history. Pakistan army, the defender of the frontiers of Pakistan, including the Pakhtun areas, is failing to protect them against the atrocities of the Taliban.
    ...
    Uhm, the Pashtuns gave the Pakistani army a bloody nose everytime they stuck it too deep into their territory... their tribal structure never depended on Pakistan for defense. In an article of the National Geographic there was an interesting story how a few tribes rallied hundreds of men against within days to punish a village for the violation of guests that were Taliban. The point never was that they were Taliban but that tribal laws were broken.

    I doubt the Taliban could stay there if the Pashtuns are getting annoyed by them... Still, I doubt more that anyone would be happy to get his country bombed by someone else...
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