Georgians are rising... didgori trailer

[Shetsiruli]

guys i dont know if you remember tadzreuli...but i was the guy who was lookin for him earlier last year..we finished the film we were tyring to make with his artistic help of drawing...so please enjoy the trailer on youtube.com just type in search at youtube.. didgori 1121

its about the famouse didgori battle where goergian with 50,000 men won a heroic victory over seljucs of 500,000 men..please post some coments on youtube too...thanks..and best of luck..this is the greatest mod.

[boerekovic]

you would do good to put a link into your post.
Also i am honestly worried about these numbers.

[The Noble Lord]

I just saw the trailer for the movie, it looks good. When the movie will be released??

[Shetsiruli]

its a student film but pretty good for a student film no? but it will be release in festivals...we want people to back it up and get views on youtube so that he can make a big hollywood version...

[The Noble Lord]

Yeah, it would be great if they make it in a big Hollywood style historical epic like the Gladiator, Alexander, Kingdom of Heaven, Troy, etc.

[Meneldil]

its about the famouse didgori battle where goergian with 50,000 men won a heroic victory over seljucs of 500,000 men..please post some coments on youtube too...thanks..and best of luck..this is the greatest mod.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it was 5,000 vs 5,000,000.

Oh god, nationalism on internet is fail.

[julianus apostata]

Actually, I'm pretty sure it was 5,000 vs 5,000,000.

Oh god, nationalism on internet is fail.

Tanks for this comment...

The number of combatants as well as the course of the battle is differently related in the contemporaneous historical records. The strength of the Seljuq army is variously put, with an obvious exaggeration, by the medieval Islamic, Georgian, Armenian and European sources from 200,000 to 600,000. King David’s army has traditionally been estimated at 40,000 Georgians, 15,000 Kipchaks, 500 Alans and 100 "Frankish" Crusaders.

from wikipedia

[Kavhan Isbul]

The only numbers that make sense are those of the Alan and Frankish contingents.
Let's be realistic - for the second siege of Vienna in the 17th century, when soldiers were gathered from the entire Ottoman Empire, all the way from Syria and Messopotamia, it came to 150,000 men, or 200,000 at the most. According to most estimates, the ethnic Mongols at the end of the rule of Genghis Khan were 1M t most, of which the warriors were 100,000.
I find it hard to believe that the Seljuks had twice or three times more men than the 17th century Ottomans at Didgori.

[The Noble Lord]

I find it hard to believe that the Seljuks had twice or three times more men than the 17th century Ottomans at Didgori.

Good point.

[Shetsiruli]

The only numbers that make sense are those of the Alan and Frankish contingents.
Let's be realistic - for the second siege of Vienna in the 17th century, when soldiers were gathered from the entire Ottoman Empire, all the way from Syria and Messopotamia, it came to 150,000 men, or 200,000 at the most. According to most estimates, the ethnic Mongols at the end of the rule of Genghis Khan were 1M t most, of which the warriors were 100,000.
I find it hard to believe that the Seljuks had twice or three times more men than the 17th century Ottomans at Didgori.

didgori was in 1121 my friend not 17 century but good point just not on the money ...lol but yea well the actuall source by a french historian who saw the battle says that seljuks had 400,000 thousand, the seljuks say themselfves 200,000 and other sources vary from 200,000 thousand to 600,000, but georgians say 500,000..u never know, all we know it was a heroic victory,and georgia was known to have no more than 50,000 give or take few thousand...but yes he had 15,000 kypchaks, because he gave them all homes and land in return for soldiers, and his wife was a kypchak

[Kavhan Isbul]

didgori was in 1121 my friend not 17 century

I am afraid you either have not understood what I wrote, or you are suggesting that in the 12th century, armies were significantly larger than in the late 17th.
In other words, you are suggesting that the Seljuks managed to muster more men, then the Ottoman Empire at its height five centuries later. Hard to believe.

The problem with important medieval battles is that often myths overshadow facts. A good example would be Alexander of Neva's battle with the Teutons, where all in all there were probably lass than 100 knights present. In the propaganda movie of course, there are thousands of them.

[daud.fr]

didgori was in 1121 my friend not 17 century but good point just not on the money ...lol but yea well the actuall source by a french historian who saw the battle says that seljuks had 400,000 thousand, the seljuks say themselfves 200,000 and other sources vary from 200,000 thousand to 600,000, but georgians say 500,000..u never know, all we know it was a heroic victory,and georgia was known to have no more than 50,000 give or take few thousand...but yes he had 15,000 kypchaks, because he gave them all homes and land in return for soldiers, and his wife was a kypchak

Did they count them all?

[WarlordZ]

didgori was in 1121 my friend not 17 century but good point just not on the money ...lol but yea well the actuall source by a french historian who saw the battle says that seljuks had 400,000 thousand, the seljuks say themselfves 200,000 and other sources vary from 200,000 thousand to 600,000, but georgians say 500,000..u never know, all we know it was a heroic victory,and georgia was known to have no more than 50,000 give or take few thousand...but yes he had 15,000 kypchaks, because he gave them all homes and land in return for soldiers, and his wife was a kypchak

just to clarify about numbers...the likeliness that the seljuks mustered over 100,000 troops is very slim. The European and Christian sources (and all historical sources for that matter) always exaggerate numbers, especially that of enemy armies to make victories sound grander or defeats less humiliating. To move, supply and coordinate 500,000 men in the middle ages was an almost impossible feat, especially when it was a cavalry based army with each warrior bringing more than one horse on the journey.

The best example of this kind of exaggeration is with the Mongols, Subedei led a small force of 15,000-20,000 men into the caucusas and Russia and led one of the most brilliant cavalry campaigns of history in which he defeated Georgian, Kypchak, Alan, and Russian armies, all of which outnumbered his own by at least 2-1 and some times 3-1...however, the sources from these places always say that the Mongols had much larger armies...it's the same when the Mongols attacked Khwarezma nd the Middle East, the armies of the Khwarezm Shah were larger than Genghis Khans, but the Arab sources always portray the Mongols as having more men. Another example is the battle of Ayn Jalut, where the Mongols were defeated for the first time. The Mamluk army was at least 5 times the size of the Mongol force left behind in Syria...so the victory was not as great as it is made out to be.

Back to Didgori, this battle was fought when the Seljuks were in decline and their empire was fragmented and medieval Georgia was on the rise to its Golden age. At Manzikert, the main Seljuk army numbered around 20,000-40,000 men and this was at a time when the Seljuks were very strong. So being able to muster and coordinate 500,000 men at a time when their power was waning is a preposterous idea. I would say they may have been around the same number as the Georgians, or maybe slightly more 60,000-80,000 men...any larger number than this is really not possible. I mean, even when the Ottomans took Constantinople in 1453 their army did not number over 100,000 men, and they were an Empire in thier prime!

[Eretna Beg]

the seljuks say themselfves 200,000

also I could say "georgians say georgian army were 2.000.000" so give me the name of historian...

I'm a Turk and I've never heard this number but I know Turko-Mongol Empire destroyed georgia with 15.000 men lol.

this is very idiotic and nationalistic... btw in that time georgians didnt fought against Seljuks but Artuqids and their number cannot be 200.000 actually their number cannot be 50.000.

[Shetsiruli]

and one more thing, the crusaders were sent by baldwin from jerusalem, because david and baldwin were distant cousins, some source says, but at the same time the 2 men who were the ultimate heros of the crusaders were the ones who battled by davids side, hugo de payne, and godfrey.

[Faris ad Din]

Human beings chronically have the habit of grossly overestimating numbers in armies. McClellan's spies in the early part of the American Civil War overestimated the Confederate numbers by as much as seven times; the American units sent to attack Canada in the War of 1812 were fooled when the Canadians dressed in red clothing (British redcoat disguise) and spread out to give the impression of more numbers.

The Battle of Troy likely did not see 50,000 Greeks against 30,000 Trojans + allies suggested in the Iliad, so much as maybe one tenth those numbers. That did not prevent storytellers and maybe even eyewitnesses of the time simply being awed by the ferocity of the fighting and the majesty of seeing the array of so many warriors collected together.

I really don't think the Persians mustered 5,000,000 soldiers + helpers against the Greek confederation + allies as suggested by Herodotus.

Forget Kingdom of Heaven's exaggeration - Saladin did not regularly field 200,000 men, being able to march them around at whim, like to attack Kerak and then cancel the attack last minute. Some estimates put the Crusader numbers at the Battle of Hattin at 44,000 and the Turk/Arab army at 56,000 - Wikipedia puts it lower at 20,000 each.

The largest numbers most armies fielded at any one location throughout history would have been no more than 100,000, prior to modern transport, logistics, organization, medical science, and food preservation technology.

To supply a Civil War era Union Army division of 27,000 men, it required a full-time pack train of 16,000 mules (it was much easier than that with railroad transportation, which was what my source on the History Channel emphasized).

Face the morning sunshine - when you look at an encamped army any more than say, 10,000 individuals you REALLY can't accurately determine numbers, and still can't, even when they're on your side!

The Seljuks would not have had much to gain by recruiting, marching, supplying, and feeding half a million adult humans for a campaign in the Caucasus mountains. I'd put their numbers higher than that of the Georgians + allies, given their better resources and population base, but not much higher. About, 100,000.

Awesome victory still.

[Shetsiruli]

I understand everyones points. but as i heard it wasnt only the seljuks who entered..sources said that it was seljuks and arabian coalition foarces..as the story goes that they were supposadly trying to march a crusade. And Baldwin thought David would be a good bump in the road for the seljuks and the arabs but Baldwin had no Idea Davit might have crushed the enemy...And Davids strategy was to block of his armys retreat by cutting huge trees and closing off the road and made it clear to his georgian army that He dies there with them and there was no way out but victory... and also if the Arabs won that the closing off of the road behind the georgian army would buy some time for rest of the georgia to gather more army if arabs continued on..and as i remember David wanted to crush the enemy and that no Islamic army would ever dare to go toward georgia...so all the routing enemy were chased down and killed..only Il Ghazi got away with a wound and some generals.. Il Ghazi then fought a famouse battle near baghdad later on years to come but never campagned on georgia again...his castle was originaly in Baghdad. so the Seljuks had allied other islamic kingdoms...

[Kavhan Isbul]

In other words Shetsiruli, all of the strength of the Muslim world was united and thrown against Georgia - 1/2 Million Men at least, maybe more. Yet a tree road barikade would have been enough to slow them down, had they won the battle.

[Shetsiruli]

Please dont make fun of my words. you know what i meant... The path way was blocked by cutting the forest down. i was writing the reply fast so lets not be little kids, lets understand the answer rather then exaturate and make fun of it to make eachother not look foolish. and yes it was more then seljuks, there were other arab coalitions in that battle.. not only the georgians witnesed the battle but other muslim writers as well... and they all roughly estimate the soldiers from 250,000 thousand - 500,000. i would guess 250,000 myself. and yes they won. Unfortunatelly due to georgian population and lack of wealth we didnt have big armies.we relied on heroic victories and mostly always outnumbered. and we should all respect that about the small country..dont you think?

[GeneralL]

Sorry, but it was a Seljuk Turk, muslim coalition of tens of thousands of troops from different directions of the muslim world. Georgians gathered every man at arms they could. Brilliant tactics defeated strenght comrpomised of sheer overpowering numbers. WIth such an efficient surprise attack and decimation of leading heads, you as the supreme commander of such a huge force, lightly loose control over the entire mass. If you are surrounded by spears and swords, facing only one by the Georgians improvised gap .... you will use this gap and you will be slaughtered in the process of trying to flee the field, like most of the coalition army did. It is a psychological rule. Nothing arguable.

The Georgians very much had everyone on the field, they could get. Some 15-40.000 containing allied forces. The muslim coalition had a devestating huge force compared to this.

I'd say 27.000 Georgians and Allies against 90-170.000 muslim soldiers.

Casaulties: 5.000 Georgians and Allies against 40-110.000 muslims.
That was a total and most humiliating defeat for the muslims at that time and is also considered as so.